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Author Topic: Mastering... The Beginning.  (Read 9689 times)

Aka Nameless

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Mastering... The Beginning.
« on: July 23, 2006, 05:27:10 PM »

 I'de like to hear how all of the Mastering Engineers got into this game, and at what point did you feel confident in charging for your services?

I actually stumbled into the mastering world one day when I went to a friend from work's studio. I had been playing guitar and writing lyrics for a good 10 years and I had been learning the art of recording/mixing for a little over a year at that point, so when I went to his studio, I was eager to learn some new recording/mixing tricks...

When I arrived he gave me a quick tour of his studio, then he said he had to finish up mastering an album and that I may find the process interesting. So we went to his little mastering room, a 9' x 9' box with auralex "I know, I know.." covering the walls, a desk "creation station from guitar center" near the middle of the room, 2 chairs, and the heart of the room, a pair of BM6A's, and Hafler amp.. I think it was a P3000. I asked why he had no analog gear in this room, and he said that the signal goes through enough analog gear in the recording stage. I bought it, it was my first mastering experience after all.

So he gets to mastering the album, he was mostly done with the album, but he gave me a quick run through of the process. I don't know what it was, but somewhere between the eq and the fading I was hooked...

Since that day, to learn the Mastering trade was what I wanted. I have read Mr. Katz' book 3 or 4 times (that book is very hard to shallow first pass), read every other book that talks about mastering in any way, done countless hours of research on the internet about mastering, or more importantly the differences of using eq, comp, etc. on the stereo mix, instead of on individual instruments.

So now, present day, I have been practicing Mastering for a solid 2 years. Have amassed a good ammount of equipment(Lavry Black, Wavelab 5, JBL LSR4328's "got a very good deal, $500 for a brand new pair", Waves Platinum Bundle, and a treated room. I'm lacking in the Monitoring Department, I know..

Now back to my original question, when did you know you were ready to charge for your services? I am confident with my mastering, but I don't want other ME's looking at me like i'm scamming people because I don't have top notch gear yet (my speakers are lacking). For the record I will be charging $25 a song in the beginning, thinking of starting very soon..

Sorry for being so long winded, it's my curse. Will be great to hear everyone's opinion on this subject. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

I'm posting this over at Gearsluts mastering forums also, hope its not against forum etiquette.
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Tom C

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2006, 06:00:43 PM »

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NoWo

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2006, 06:43:25 PM »

Aka Nameless wrote on Sun, 23 July 2006 22:27

 

Now back to my original question, when did you know you were ready to charge for your services?




I was ready when I asked for a high price (much much higher than yours) and the price was accepted, paid, and the customers kept coming back. Although it was not for mastering alone. And it was years ago, the market is much more complicated today and much smaller.

Why do you want to make a living out of a niche market? Did you read what the hardware guys have here and at GS and what it costed them? And you want to compete with them?

Well...you have no chance so take it. For sure it will turn out to be the hardest time of your life.

Only time can tell you, not me, sorry.

Norbert
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Aka Nameless

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2006, 08:30:19 PM »

 Well, if anything the market for mastering is getting bigger and bigger. I work at Guitar Center and I see first hand how many home studios are popping up (tons). Music is my thing, always has been, and if I weren't mastering, I would be recording/mixing, now THAT is a hard market to make money in. Home studios really affect the pro studios tryin to make a buck. I don't see home studios hurting mastering much.

I know all too well what gear I will need in the future when I decide to raise my prices. Thats the price you pay for saving $70,000 on college..

I also love a challenge.

I feel that I am ready, my masters translate well to outside sources, and my buddies say the mastering sounds great. Though i've never heard them say anything bad about my music, so who knows. I'm gonna participate in the WUMPs to get opinions of experianced ME's, maybe I have time to get into WUMP VI.

Thanks for the opinions guys.
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archtop

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2006, 10:26:58 PM »

Aka Nameless wrote on Sun, 23 July 2006 17:30

 
I know all too well what gear I will need in the future




Rolling Eyes  Laughing  Rolling Eyes
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Ed Littman

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2006, 10:47:47 PM »

Aka Nameless wrote on Sun, 23 July 2006 20:30

 

I feel that I am ready, my masters translate well to outside sources, and my buddies say the mastering sounds great. Though i've never heard them say anything bad about my music, so who knows. I'm gonna participate in the WUMPs to get opinions of experianced ME's, maybe I have time to get into WUMP VI.

Thanks for the opinions guys.


Translation is key... IMO, gear is over rated it's the driver.
spend your energy & $$ on a good room & monitors for the translation to be consistant. I started somewhat like you. coming from being a musician, learned on the job (good & bad)Boy would I like a second chance now with all the clients in the past that did not return. On the other hand, I got paid to learn & alot of those clients have been coming back.
Join in on  wump7 you'll know were you stand very quickly.
Do this for the love of it & not the $$...it's rough out here.
Ed
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cerberus

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2006, 10:14:21 AM »

chris athens raised the issue of people skills;  also important if you want to get paid.  

my current rate is 18. per hour. i estimate each job based on the client's goal and let the client decide how many enhancements they can afford.  if it is a full cd, then i may demo one track and present a 2 snippets with the estimate.. showing different  two different quality levels...e.g. a two hour job or a four hour job. the client may choose at this point to spend even more money e.g.  six hours to prepare the first track..etc..

wump is an exhibition and learning center...it would be a joke for me to submit a twenty five dollar master there.  mastering is hard work.  it takes a highly skilled and educated professional. that implies a significant investment on the part of the m.e... so no way it can be done profitably at  laborer's rates.

i come from an advertising background, so bidding on jobs like this is normal for me, i do a lot of work and not get paid, this is practice...like an athlete, i am helping myself by working even when i am not being paid. and i do a lot of other things to earn money while i try to build my mastering business. frankly i find mastering is hard on my ears and brain... it means that when my mastering services are more in demand, the price will go up so the quality can stay high.

jeff dinces

jtr

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2006, 10:32:33 AM »

Aka Nameless wrote on Sun, 23 July 2006 17:30

 Well, if anything the market for mastering is getting bigger and bigger. I work at Guitar Center and I see first hand how many home studios are popping up (tons). Music is my thing, always has been, and if I weren't mastering, I would be recording/mixing, now THAT is a hard market to make money in. Home studios really affect the pro studios tryin to make a buck. I don't see home studios hurting mastering much.



I'm sure we can all come up with anecdotes about this or that pro studio closing because of home studios, but closer examination would show there were other, more prominent factors at work. Friends of mine who own established pro studios (and have the experience to back it up) are now busier than ever- mixing projects that started in home studios as a concept. Remixing stuff that someone tried to do in a cheapo studio- etc.

The music business in general is a  hard life with no guarantees. It changes all the time, big dollar success will always be for the few,  and decent competition is always around.
Think you're gonna get rich? Don't expect it.  Behind (almost) every new mastering suite  photo is usually a loan waiting to be repaid. All part of the business.

ME s  charge for the results, not the gear.  Unlike project studios, we aren't renting space out to a producer or guest mixer.  Charge what you think your services are worth if you were the customer- not based on what kind of gear you have. Assess the value of your services by listening to your work on a variety of systems - and by soliciting feedback from others. As noted- WUMP might be a great option for you.

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Aka Nameless

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2006, 04:19:13 PM »

 "wump is an exhibition and learning center...it would be a joke for me to submit a twenty five dollar master there. mastering is hard work. it takes a highly skilled and educated professional. that implies a significant investment on the part of the m.e... so no way it can be done profitably at laborer's rates." - Cerberus

This paragraph has me somewhat confused. (this is not hostile though it may come across like it..) It sounds you are assuming that I do a half ass job just because I charge $25. I do my best on every project I get. If you are working much harder on Wump submissions, than you are on your clients projects, something is very wrong.

"The music business in general is a hard life with no guarantees. It changes all the time, big dollar success will always be for the few, and decent competition is always around.
Think you're gonna get rich? Don't expect it. Behind (almost) every new mastering suite photo is usually a loan waiting to be repaid. All part of the business." - jtr

I agree, but I think your ammount of business also depends on your, drive.. or.. motivation. You aren't really gonna get rich with any 9-5 job, its all about making money, then investing it to make more money (stocks, bonds, an apartment complex, etc.), rinse and repeat. It is a hard job, and I can see that completely, but having no boss is a huge plus, there are tons of perks to mastering, but you guys seem to have been in the game so long you are overlooking them.

"ME s charge for the results, not the gear. Unlike project studios, we aren't renting space out to a producer or guest mixer. Charge what you think your services are worth if you were the customer- not based on what kind of gear you have. Assess the value of your services by listening to your work on a variety of systems - and by soliciting feedback from others. As noted- WUMP might be a great option for you." - jtr

One thing on my mind, is if I charge $25 per song the client may think that I must be doing a half assed job cause i'm not charging $100 per song (read Cerberus' post above). I dunno, next Wump i'll participate in, and i'll see what you guys think of my master.

Maybe i'll move to South Africa and start a diamond mine.

Thanks for all the opinions, keep em coming.

Colin
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NoWo

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2006, 05:09:24 PM »

Aka Nameless wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 21:19

 

Maybe i'll move to South Africa and start a diamond mine.

Colin



Seems like a much better idea just on first thought.
On second I am sure you would be killed.

Seriously:
I can only speak for myself, so please believe me, I had the same verve and plans like you have today, and I came very far with it...but not far enough. I had ten employees once, but this has all changed.
I have seen the dying of the big studios here in Germany, only a handful or a dozen have survived, more dead than alive. Mastering: Was never that big theme here, and the big acts go to Sterling or other big names.
And the small acts and homestudio guys will try to master it on their own anyway, the magazines here are full of training articles and courses.
I can only suggest you to always have an eye on other opportunities, I did and so I could survive for 30 years which is damn long. Today I am programming handy apps, mainly games, so I can look at this audio thing much more relaxed. Don
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Ed Littman

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2006, 05:11:48 PM »

Quote:

"wump is an exhibition and learning center...it would be a joke for me to submit a twenty five dollar master there. mastering is hard work. it takes a highly skilled and educated professional. that implies a significant investment on the part of the m.e... so no way it can be done profitably at laborer's rates." - Cerberus

This paragraph has me somewhat confused. (this is not hostile though it may come across like it..) It sounds you are assuming that I do a half ass job just because I charge $25. I do my best on every project I get. If you are working much harder on Wump submissions, than you are on your clients projects, something is very wrong.



Agreed. with that said, submitting your work to be critiqued by 20 or so mastering engineers should create a standard for for ones self that should translate to all your clients work... always to be the best.

Quote:

 agree, but I think your ammount of business also depends on your, drive.. or.. motivation. You aren't really gonna get rich with any 9-5 job, its all about making money, then investing it to make more money (stocks, bonds, an apartment complex, etc.), rinse and repeat. It is a hard job, and I can see that completely, but having no boss is a huge plus, there are tons of perks to mastering, but you guys seem to have been in the game so long you are overlooking them.



I have always worked as my own boss. if not mastering, teaching or playing music.  I think drive & motivation will keep you in the biz longer cause you'll find ways to subsidize the studio when things are dry & work harder to get clients. I'm not sure there is a direct connection to how much business you get & ones motivation. Just cause you want it really bad does not mean their gonna call.

Quote:

One thing on my mind, is if I charge $25 per song the client may think that I must be doing a half assed job cause i'm not charging $100 per song (read Cerberus' post above). I dunno, next Wump i'll participate in, and i'll see what you guys think of my master.


correct. I have lost jobs due to a lower bid....

Ed
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Aka Nameless

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2006, 06:22:40 PM »

 "I can only speak for myself, so please believe me, I had the same verve and plans like you have today, and I came very far with it...but not far enough. I had ten employees once, but this has all changed.
I have seen the dying of the big studios here in Germany, only a handful or a dozen have survived, more dead than alive. Mastering: Was never that big theme here, and the big acts go to Sterling or other big names.
And the small acts and homestudio guys will try to master it on their own anyway, the magazines here are full of training articles and courses.
I can only suggest you to always have an eye on other opportunities, I did and so I could survive for 30 years which is damn long. Today I am programming handy apps, mainly games, so I can look at this audio thing much more relaxed. Don
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NoWo

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2006, 06:39:53 PM »

Aka Nameless wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 23:22

 

That is beside the point, we are in the future my man...




Please not that tone, Colin, I am not your man.
I just wanted to give you some thoughts of a man who worked with audio and lived with audio for 30 years as a pro. Pro doesn
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Pingu

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2006, 06:40:07 PM »

cerberus wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 22:14

 frankly i find mastering is hard on my ears and brain... it means that when my mastering services are more in demand, the price will go up so the quality can stay high.

jeff dinces


This is how i feel also.
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Aka Nameless

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2006, 06:45:30 PM »

 "I have always worked as my own boss. if not mastering, teaching or playing music. I think drive & motivation will keep you in the biz longer cause you'll find ways to subsidize the studio when things are dry & work harder to get clients. I'm not sure there is a direct connection to how much business you get & ones motivation. Just cause you want it really bad does not mean their gonna call." -  Ed Littman

I agree, but in the beginning, only so many people can hear you when yelling from your front yard. You know? I mean motivation isn't a direct connection to how many people call you, but it is the driving factor to going out and making flyers or even business cards, and going around town dropping off flyers at record shops or liquor stores (is that shameless?  Laughing  ), or expanding and working at getting your name on top of the search engines.

Colin
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Ed Littman

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2006, 07:07:23 PM »

Aka Nameless wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 18:45

 "I have always worked as my own boss. if not mastering, teaching or playing music. I think drive & motivation will keep you in the biz longer cause you'll find ways to subsidize the studio when things are dry & work harder to get clients. I'm not sure there is a direct connection to how much business you get & ones motivation. Just cause you want it really bad does not mean their gonna call." -  Ed Littman

I agree, but in the beginning, only so many people can hear you when yelling from your front yard. You know? I mean motivation isn't a direct connection to how many people call you, but it is the driving factor to going out and making flyers or even business cards, and going around town dropping off flyers at record shops or liquor stores (is that shameless?  Laughing  ), or expanding and working at getting your name on top of the search engines.

Colin


Getting the word out is key to anything you do. working at guitar center can be your source. Just any store on the street may not.

Ed
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Aka Nameless

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2006, 07:21:45 PM »

 "Please not that tone, Colin, I am not your man.
I just wanted to give you some thoughts of a man who worked with audio and lived with audio for 30 years as a pro. Pro doesn
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NoWo

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2006, 07:28:59 PM »

Hi Colin,

now that I know you better through your posts I am pretty sure you will get into trouble with customers more sooner than later.

Bye for now

Norbert
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Aka Nameless

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2006, 07:40:21 PM »

I love this guy..  Very Happy

Back on topic, any other ME's have stories of their beginning to share?




Colin






PS: Do you love me too? (Yes/No) Circle one and send back.

I'm sorry  Sad
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cerberus

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2006, 08:16:44 PM »

Aka Nameless wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 16:19

 
Quote:

"wump is an exhibition and learning center...it would be a joke for me to submit a twenty five dollar master there. mastering is hard work. it takes a highly skilled and educated professional. that implies a significant investment on the part of the m.e... so no way it can be done profitably at laborer's rates." - Cerberus


This paragraph has me somewhat confused. (this is not hostile though it may come across like it..) It sounds you are assuming that I do a half ass job just because I charge $25. I do my best on every project I get. If you are working much harder on Wump submissions, than you are on your clients projects, something is very wrong.


you may have missed the word "profitably" in my statement of opinion. some of my clients cannot afford my best work, some can.  however in wump i have experimented with very radical techniques which were not fully developed. for example i used no dedicated eq whatsoever in the last 3 wumps. this is because in wump3 i used eq liberally and it was a disaster for me. that experiment failed.  i did that master three times and was very poor at it each time. so that one actually would have cost the most... but i also would have been fired by holger [the client]  after the first hour.

so i was not using those same experimental techniques on paid projects. wump is an exhibition and learning center, and for some of us, also a science lab.  now i can offer a more expensive level of precision... but even a successful technical experiment needs to be market tested... how much more will people pay for the extra precision i learned how to achieve in wump?  to not use any eq etc?  i don't know yet.

jeff dinces

Patrik T

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2006, 09:22:51 AM »

cerberus wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 01:16


some of my clients cannot afford my best work, some can.  


Que?

BR
Patrik


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bblackwood

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2006, 10:18:19 AM »

FWIW, my model is this - everybody gets my best effort regardless of what rate I agree to work at.

I mean, there's no asterisk beside the mastering credit saying 'we only had a little money so he only gave a little effort'...
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Brad Blackwood
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cerberus

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2006, 10:49:17 AM »

Patrik T wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 09:22

cerberus wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 01:16


some of my clients cannot afford my best work, some can.  

Que?

BR
Patrik
BR?  watz dat mean?    let me try again:

some cannot afford the m3, so bmw also makes the 323i.
some cannot afford the lavry gold, so the lavry blue is still available.
some cannot afford my best work, some can.

jeff dinces

Tom C

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2006, 11:40:35 AM »

cerberus wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 16:49


some cannot afford the m3, so bmw also makes the 323i.
some cannot afford the lavry gold, so the lavry blue is still available.
some cannot afford my best work, some can.

jeff dinces



Hmh, if this is related to the time invested (poor dude can
only pay half the money, so you'll only work half the time, so
the final product will not be your best work) it's okay,
but if you don't deliver your best work possible in that time
you should rethink your motivation for the job.

Tom
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cerberus

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2006, 12:15:31 PM »

Tom C wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 11:40

but if you don't deliver your best work possible in that time
you should rethink your motivation for the job.
is that what the pope said to michelangelo?
go tell that to a "chef" at mcdonald's, please.

as ray davies said:

"art takes time, and time is money, and money's scarce, and that ain't funny"

i am in business to make money. you like my artisanship? you pay. but that is not a bottomless pit: i give estimates. after one is approved, i stick to it. so the client is in control of how much they are spending (and why) throughout the process. what is the problem?


jeff dinces

Aka Nameless

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2006, 03:28:55 PM »

"some cannot afford the m3, so bmw also makes the 323i.
some cannot afford the lavry gold, so the lavry blue is still available.
some cannot afford my best work, some can." - Cerberus

Your examples are a little off, its more like someone coming in to buy an m3 for $30,000, but they say they only have $25,000, so you take out the interior.

You should not have a mediocre mode, I don't understand how you can, you pop in the cd, hear what needs to be changed and fix it. Since they aren't on a huge budget you only fix every other problem? I don't wanna get anyone else mad at me, but you should look at your business from the customers point of view, ESPECIALLY since the cd's you master are examples of your work.

For your sake and the customers sake, if they can't afford your best work, you should turn them down.

Colin
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ammitsboel

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2006, 04:21:36 PM »

Aka Nameless wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 21:28

You should not have a mediocre mode, I don't understand how you can, you pop in the cd, hear what needs to be changed and fix it. Since they aren't on a huge budget you only fix every other problem? I don't wanna get anyone else mad at me, but you should look at your business from the customers point of view, ESPECIALLY since the cd's you master are examples of your work.

When you write that it sounds a bit like you are jealous at him for having a mediocre mode??
If you take a long hard look at the mastering business, can you then say that it by it's very definition is not mediocre?

H
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TotalSonic

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2006, 04:45:33 PM »

Aka Nameless wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 00:40

I love this guy..  Very Happy

Back on topic, any other ME's have stories of their beginning to share?


Hi Colin -
I started out by cleaning out toilet bowls and making cassette tape dupes working as an assistant at a studio in Baltimore a couple years after I graduated from Berklee after focusing on performance and composition (and not engineering) while I was there.  This was in 1991 and the studio was one of the first in the area to get a new fangled thing - a Digidesign Sound Designer II workstation - and for some reason I was instantly attracted to the options that digital editing gave, and even more for some reason really liked focusing on mastering, and learned this system fairly quickly by coming in during down time and sitting in with the other engineers there.   Because processing speed was so slow back in those days the studio actually needed someone to stay late nights fairly often when work on a deadline came in - so that you could take over from the day engineer, do the next set of edits and then hit the button to process, wait an hour or more, and then repeat until morning came.  The place became fairly busy doing editing and pre-mastering to DAT using the SDII, a couple Yamaha DMP-7's and a couple dbx comps, and I ended up being given more and more of these jobs to do.   Invaluable for me at this time was getting to get direct feedback from the other much more experienced engineers there as to how close to the mark I was or what other approaches to do.

A few years later the place went out of business after an under capitalized expansion was attempted - but by this point in 1994 I ended up getting the original version of SAW and setting up a small digital editing studio at my own place and continued to do editing, recording and pre-mastering work there on my own for a number of cients.

In 1997 I moved to NYC, did a brief stint selling pro audio gear at Manny's (such as you are doing now), and then ended up getting a job as a production assistant at a CD and vinyl record replicator, Europadisk.  I was soon promoted to supervising the production for the entire vinyl pressing dept. and worked in this capacity, while also maintaining my own digital based home studio, until 2002.  At this point I quit Europadisk to open my own business, where I did short run duplication, brokered larger replication orders, and more and more "budget" mastering using at what was at that point an all digital processing chain.   Very fortunately I was able to develop a lot of repeat business from clients grateful to have an option that was within their budgets that was giving them still clearly audible improvements on their mixes.

In 2004 the previous long term mastering engineer at Europadisk quit to move on to working at another facility, and based on the owner's trust of my abilities and my recent experiences at my own business, I was hired back at Europadisk to replace him.  I was trained by the president of the company, Jim Shelton, who was a fine mastering engineer in his own right with some 30 years of experience, directly for a few months to learn the art of cutting vinyl masters using one of the few operating DMM lathes in the world, and luckily was able to quickly pick this skill up to the point where I was doing unsupervised work cutting vinyl masters every day almost immediately.  During this time I used most of every bit of surplus from my salary to aquire more mastering equipment of my own (such as a Medici eq and Lavry Blue DAC's)  as I wanted the studio to be able to ultimately compete with the best in NYC , and also being aware of the companies financial problems, to have my own gear to open up a studio with in case the place closed.   While at Europadisk I got to work on a number of "name" projects and learned a ton by getting to work on multiple orders every day.  Again, also invaluable for me during this time was getting to consult on mastering philosophy and approach with another more experienced engineer.  

Due to a number of factors Europadisk closed in July 2005, and since then I've been building up my own room here in Greenpoint Brooklyn, reopening my business now focusing primarily on mastering - now with a much better selection of gear including B&W 802s and an analog process chain,  and have been doing work for a number of clients since March.  

So - while there are a ton of other ME's that have a lot more experience than me out there - I also feel lucky in that over the years I've had the opportunity to work and observe directly with other ME's instead of just having to grope through only internet boards infotainment and mythologizing and figuring things out strictly on my own.  

Having said that - as long as you are making people feel happy with your work, and as long as you're honest with them as far as what you offer and can meet the expectations based on this - and as long as the client finds the price reasonable - then go for it - I'd say you're ready to charge for your work at that point.  

As other's have stated - don't expect to get rich (or even more than subsistence) from this - instead do it because you simply don't want to do anything  else - work on your people skills first, your room & monitoring chain second, and your processing chain finally - then you'll most likely do good.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Tom C

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2006, 03:51:37 AM »

cerberus wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 18:15

Tom C wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 11:40

but if you don't deliver your best work possible in that time
you should rethink your motivation for the job.
is that what the pope said to michelangelo?
go tell that to a "chef" at mcdonald's, please.

as ray davies said:

"art takes time, and time is money, and money's scarce, and that ain't funny"

i am in business to make money. you like my artisanship? you pay. but that is not a bottomless pit: i give estimates. after one is approved, i stick to it. so the client is in control of how much they are spending (and why) throughout the process. what is the problem?
jeff dinces



Your statement that some clients get NOT your best work is the problem.

In my business a customer pays in the range from $800 to
$2500 per day.

Would I like to have $2500 customers only?
You bet.

Would I have a single $2500 customer if I had NOT delivered my
best work for the $800 customers.

Forgetaboutit!

The quality of your work is the best advertising. Even when I
work for free for very close friends I do the best I can.

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ammitsboel

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2006, 04:14:58 AM »

Tom C wrote on Wed, 26 July 2006 09:51

Your statement that some clients get NOT your best work is the problem.

Why is it a problem if they pay less?

And why isn't it a problem when you give the $800 customers the $2500 service? Isn't it like cheating the $2500 customers?

H
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Tom C

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2006, 04:30:00 AM »

ammitsboel wrote on Wed, 26 July 2006 10:14

Tom C wrote on Wed, 26 July 2006 09:51

Your statement that some clients get NOT your best work is the problem.

Why is it a problem if they pay less?

And why isn't it a problem when you give the $800 customers the $2500 service? Isn't it like cheating the $2500 customers?

H


Don't doing it is like cheating the $800 customer.
IF you accept a deal do it as good as possible.
If you don't want to do this don't accept the deal.

If I was a possible customer and have read this statement I'd
go somewhere else.

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cerberus

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2006, 04:36:58 AM »

Tom C wrote on Wed, 26 July 2006 03:51

Your statement that some clients get NOT your best work is the problem.


my best work lies somewhere on an asymptote. unfortunately, humans don't live forever and there are only 24 hours in  a day.

jeff dinces

ammitsboel

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2006, 06:47:44 AM »

Tom C wrote on Wed, 26 July 2006 10:30

If I was a possible customer and have read this statement I'd
go somewhere else.

I don't understand why you are so strongly opinionated in this matter. As I see it, it can go both ways.
If a customer paying the full amount was to see your statement wouldn't he be disappointed?

Why only apply reason & ethics to your performance, what about the prices?

Tom C wrote on Wed, 26 July 2006 10:30

Don't doing it is like cheating the $800 customer.
IF you accept a deal do it as good as possible.
If you don't want to do this don't accept the deal.

It can be helpful to accept other ways to do it, even though you disagree. Things are not as simple as you make them, other people has a brain too and it's not very often that their starting point was the same as yours.

Doing it as good as possible is in my opinion finding the best compromise between price & performance.

Regards
H
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bblackwood

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2006, 08:55:25 AM »

What about the potential client that hears your half-baked job and has no idea you worked at a discount?

Hence my earlier statement:
Quote:

I mean, there's no asterisk beside the mastering credit saying 'we only had a little money so he only gave a little effort'...

Isn't this business 101? Under-promise and over-deliver?
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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2006, 09:52:39 AM »

I do the same job almost always for whatever price we agree on, the difference is the turnaround time. for halfprice jobs, the turnaround time is muuuchhh longer. In fact I don't give a delivery date. I let them know it goes in my "to do when I get a chance pile" and I get to it when I get a chance. sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't.
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2006, 10:43:46 AM »

TurtleTone wrote on Wed, 26 July 2006 08:52

I do the same job almost always for whatever price we agree on, the difference is the turnaround time...
Same here. People paying full rate go to the head of the line but the quality of all of my work is the very best that I can do.

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2006, 01:17:18 PM »

look at how easily we are willing to jump down each other's throats.

i am not throwing any more wood on this fire now, imo we are too eager to destroy each other, this is not at all a constructive discussion for anyone in the mastering industry to have in public, imo.

i am going back to the wump threads where at least part of the purpose is in the collective interests of the mastering profession, and where the posters have one or two goals in common other than stepping on each others' heads.

and i've got work to do trying my best to make people feel good about their artism, (not by dissing their methods)  carpe diem.

jeff dinces

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2006, 05:16:30 PM »

cerberus wrote on Wed, 26 July 2006 13:17

look at how easily we are willing to jump down each other's throats.

i am not throwing any more wood on this fire now, imo we are too eager to destroy each other, this is not at all a constructive discussion for anyone in the mastering industry to have in public, imo.

i am going back to the wump threads where at least part of the purpose is in the collective interests of the mastering profession, and where the posters have one or two goals in common other than stepping on each others' heads.

and i've got work to do trying my best to make people feel good about their artism, (not by dissing their methods)  carpe diem.

jeff dinces



Don't take it too seriously. How you do things is entirely up to you. However, it might make sense to consider how some of the other folks here do it. Like not compromising on the work but perhaps compromising on the turn around time. Most clients with budget issues understand that you're busy. This way you'll never have to qualify the work you've done. It'll always be your best even if it takes longer to deliver. Better for your clients and better for your career in the long run.

Food for thought. That's all.

C.
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Chris Athens

I believe your record has reached it's "loudness potential"

Patrik T

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2006, 05:30:25 PM »

Masterer wrote on Wed, 26 July 2006 22:16

 However, it might make sense to consider how some of the other folks here do it.


This must be one of the best sentences I've read in a long time.

I wish, in general, that we could see more of it's essence in about any topic on this board, but that won't ever happen.

Best Regards
Patrik
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Aka Nameless

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2006, 05:36:01 PM »

 TotalSonic, your story is too big to quote, but was a good read, sounds like your headed in the right direction.

Seems like the one thing that I haven't done that most people here or at gearsluts have done, is apprentice or start in a big studio first, then work your way to your own business. My buddy is finishing his Debut album and when he gets it mastered i'm gonna talk him into doing an attended session at a well known mastering house, so I can follow along and hopefully learn something.

My one problem when mastering is the time it takes to master an album, I hear top ME's saying an album takes 6 to 8 hours, so thats about 30 mins a song, it usually takes me about double that. I guess the speed comes with the experience.

Mr. Athens, you word things so much better than I do.  Very Happy
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Ged Leitch

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2006, 05:47:09 PM »

Aka Nameless wrote on Wed, 26 July 2006 22:36

 TotalSonic, your story is too big to quote, but was a good read, sounds like your headed in the right direction.

Seems like the one thing that I haven't done that most people here or at gearsluts have done, is apprentice or start in a big studio first, then work your way to your own business. My buddy is finishing his Debut album and when he gets it mastered i'm gonna talk him into doing an attended session at a well known mastering house, so I can follow along and hopefully learn something.

My one problem when mastering is the time it takes to master an album, I hear top ME's saying an album takes 6 to 8 hours, so thats about 30 mins a song, it usually takes me about double that. I guess the speed comes with the experience.

Mr. Athens, you word things so much better than I do.  Very Happy


Well i'm no pro Colin,

but yeah, the speed really does come with years of expirience,
I've got  lot faster in the last year or so, but still am not where i'd like to be skill wise, but again it's experience.
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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2006, 05:59:18 PM »

Apprenticing is probably the wisest move.

I didn't do it, but I can't recommend to people that they do what I did, which is to just keep at it until you get better, as it's really just far too risky. I'm fortunate to have made it as far as I have (and that's not very far!).

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Re: Mastering... The Beginning.
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2006, 06:36:37 PM »

 For anyone interested in hearing more stories, John Scrip, Dave Collins, Franco, Jerry Tubb, Bob Olhsson, and Nancy Matter all told their Beginning stories in the duplicate thread I started at Gearslutz.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=78861

I am finding these stories very interesting, i'de love to hear more if anyone else cares to chime in. Mr. Athens maybe?  Very Happy  The thread at Gearslutz is a bit more focused, so if you want to post your story i'de suggest doing it in the other thread.

Colin
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