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Author Topic: Pitch/Catch  (Read 17801 times)

Jerry Tubb

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2011, 12:53:13 pm »

Yeah should be an interesting experiment. JT which is the most stable version of sB to use as of this moment? I have access to all the beta builds but I'd rather not be a guinea pig at this stage. Is 1.3.5 still the best version?

Also tell me this, can sB record through plug-ins destructively or at least allow you to audition through them in real time as you record? I want to be able to listen to the master through a limiter as I'm recording into sB. I'm also assuming you can have it in input mode & audition through the limiter when not recording too right?

Hey Matt,
For the last year or so, I've been using sB 1.3.5 for actual attended sessions on OSX 10.5.8 w/8GB, been very stable.
(Seems like minor issues popped up when I tried 1.3.5 on Snow Leopard, don't remember exactly which now)
In the master section I'm using PSP Xenon v1.1 during catching, works just great, newer versions not.
Also the RND level meter, and occasional Spitfish & even Sonic EQ.
About once a week I'll blow out the preferences, and every 2-3 months reinstall the app to keep things running smoothly.

You can switch the PSP off, on the plug itself, or right click "bypass" on the master section. A little experimentation will help with creative ways to audition, like switching the input/output mode with keyboard strokes while making adjustments and comparing to other versions.

As to the Lynx AES16e card it's been great, the firmware & drivers may need to be updated, see their support page.
I like to uncheck the SynchroClock feature and clock to AES Digital 1. Not sure if Lynx needs to be in a certain type of PCIe slot, but iirc you're running a special CPU situation there.

I too am eagerly anticipating moving to sB 2.0 with Snow Leopard and PT 9, but I like to take small stable steps, especially with all the attended sessions done here. As a beta tester, can't comment much on sB 2.0 yet :-)

Looking forward to a productive dialog about this Matt (and everyone else), perhaps we could start a new dedicated thread about it.

Best JT
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Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2011, 10:03:48 am »

Do you use a 192 to get AES out of PTHD?

I have the Digital 192 I/O (no digidesign converters) which has 16 channels of digital I/O on AES/EBU (or T/DIF, ADAT & S/PDIF).

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sB can record through plugs, so you should be OK there.
I've been using sB 2.0 to pitch from on a mac pro but haven't used it for capture yet.

It's been around two years since I've used sB (1.3 something) for capture, but it was OK, just not as smooth to work with as WL6.

good to know.. I guess seeing as WL7 seems a bit of a backwards step since WL6 I'm kinda glad I went with sB. I've learnt most of the essential stuff through using PMCD.

Hey Matt,
For the last year or so, I've been using sB 1.3.5 for actual attended sessions on OSX 10.5.8 w/8GB, been very stable.

I just downloaded sB 2.0 build 3286 & just ran it in demo mode while I'm waiting on my iLok asset to be deposited. Tried a few things & it seemed to be working quite well. I'll test more & report next week once my iLok asset goes in & the Lynx card arrives.
 
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About once a week I'll blow out the preferences, and every 2-3 months reinstall the app to keep things running smoothly.


That sounds like a good way to maintain stability.

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You can switch the PSP off, on the plug itself, or right click "bypass" on the master section. A little experimentation will help with creative ways to audition, like switching the input/output mode with keyboard strokes while making adjustments and comparing to other versions.

Had a play with that on the demo today, the plugs I loaded seemed to be functioning fine without problem so I'm happy about that. 

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As to the Lynx AES16e card it's been great, the firmware & drivers may need to be updated, see their support page.
I like to uncheck the SynchroClock feature and clock to AES Digital 1. Not sure if Lynx needs to be in a certain type of PCIe slot, but iirc you're running a special CPU situation there.

I'd like to lock my whole system from the Forssell's clock, so plan on using W/C on BNC with the Lynx card. I'm hoping the Lynx card will run trouble free on the slot I have reserved for it. Can you upgrade the firmware on the Lynx on the OSX side?

Any tips Ade or JT on the optimal buffer/cache settings to run with this card? 

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I too am eagerly anticipating moving to sB 2.0 with Snow Leopard and PT 9, but I like to take small stable steps, especially with all the attended sessions done here. As a beta tester, can't comment much on sB 2.0 yet :-)


I've been running PT's 9.0.2 & it's been pretty solid with only the occasional "esoteric" plug-in crash once in a while. Hoping that sB 2.0 3286 is also trouble free for the main aspects/functionality of the program that I'll be using it for. It seems like it's certainly come a long way since the first v1.0 trial I tried when it was first released. 


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Treelady

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2011, 05:49:30 pm »

Warning.  Statement of the Obvious.

So, there are different ways to do this.  One software title, or multiple?  One computer or multiple?   All are have advantages and disadvantages.  I like one PC that runs different instances of Sequoia.   The different instances can deal with different sample rates and being on the same box allows me to share iLok and UAD licences legally and with ease. 

That said, the only thing that I've found to be true for me is despite using a PC for pitch and catch, I still require an OSX machine in the studio to deal with SDII and other Mac-created files.  (Those of you who have had good experiences with MacDisc I respect you and am in awe of your success but I would boot that title over the moon before I would ever use it again.  Give me a real machine any day). 

As for the SRC up / down debate.   That gets complicated.  Some of us feel that plug ins sound better at higher rates, BUT: some plug ins upsample internally anyway, and some of us rarely ever use plugs, so it can be processing and work for no good reason. 

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Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2011, 10:13:44 pm »

I like one PC that runs different instances of Sequoia.   The different instances can deal with different sample rates and being on the same box allows me to share iLok and UAD licences legally and with ease. 

This I find interesting & seems more commonly acceptable with PC to be able to run 2 instances of the same program on the one machine. For instance ProTools won't even allow you to run ProTools HD with the HD hardware & a native version of ProTools on the same machine. I asked Avid on the DUC about if this was possible & they basically said maybe if I was living on a different planet it might be technically possible. Strange response from one of the admins at Avid CS but there you go.

I have a question Garrett, when you say you can run 2 instances of Sequoia with different sample rates, is that utilising a different soundcard for each instance i.e. 2 x soundcards? Or does Sequoia just do real time sample rate conversion to allow the different physical file rates? I ask because I know programs like Reaper allow you to run multiple sample rate files in the same session but that's because it's sample rate converting them on playback (monitoring only) in real-time.

JT or Ade - I wonder is it possible to run 2 instances of soundBlade on 2 different soundcards for catching & pitching at different sample rates? I know you can have more than one session open at a time but assumed this would still be restricted to using the same sound card right?   

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That said, the only thing that I've found to be true for me is despite using a PC for pitch and catch, I still require an OSX machine in the studio to deal with SDII and other Mac-created files.

I would've thought there was software that could open or import SDII on PC surely? I thought Adobe Audition & Wavelab could open SDII? btw.. I have had good experiences with MacDrive on PC reading Mac HFS+ formatted drives. :)

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As for the SRC up / down debate.   That gets complicated.  Some of us feel that plug ins sound better at higher rates, BUT: some plug ins upsample internally anyway, and some of us rarely ever use plugs, so it can be processing and work for no good reason.

Totally.. a lot of people that argue that upsampling degrades the signal & sounds best left at the native 1 X FS rate either choose to ignore the fact that a number of digital processors & plug-ins are doing up/down SRC internally or they're ignorant to this. If using any of these digital processors things like the Weiss units, Massenburg digital EQ's & numerous others you may as well control it yourself by using a dedicated high quality off-line SRC & upsample to 2 X FS before starting work. The only time I don't is if the mix sounds amazing & doesn't require digital processing prior to the analog chain.

What I hope to achieve with adding sB & a second soundcard to my workflow is to have the option of capturing off the analog path directly to 44.1kHz which will allow me to audition my work at the destination rate in real-time & to remove the need for a 96k to 44.1kHz off-line SRC. It'll be interesting to see which way sounds better as the Forssell converters always capture at 200kHz & then SRC internally at 32bit floating point to the output SR selected on the A/D. So in some ways I'll be comparing the Forssell SRC to the iZotope SRC I usually use to do the job. If the differences in quality are negligible it will still be a time saver for my workflow & allow me to hear exactly what the finished product will sound like as I'm working on it. So those benefits alone will make it worthwhile. What I'm hoping is that I don't prefer the sound of the off-line SRC over the Forssell one. Because then it will make it a harder decision to move to the new way of working.

I also believe most converters or more the clock in each converter is usually optimised for the highest sample rate so they usually sound better at the higher rates. This is one reason I think the Forssell design has it over the others as it is always capturing at the highest possible SF & then converting that down to the required destination rate. The proof is in the pudding though, theory's aside.. the fact is that the Forssell just sounds incredibly focused & detailed & in my room beat out all the top end usual brands imo.

         
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2011, 12:28:22 am »

Hey Matt,

You can download the latest Lynx firmware on their support page.
I just go with the default buffer settings, no need to change unless there's an issue.

I don't think that sB will let you run two instances simultaneously, but ymmv.

However I did a successful pitch/catch test today:

Both PT9 & sB 2.0 running simultaneously, original Mac Pro on OSX 10.6.6 w/8GB.
sB 2.0 on the Lynx AES-16e card/driver clocked to the Lavry ADC for capture.
Pro Tools 9.0.3, 96k session running on 002 Hardware.
Routed it's output through my analog EQ path.
Captured the result on sB 2.0 (latest build) at 24-44.1k with PSP Xenon active in the master section.
Worked just great, no problems, at all, whatsoever.
Plenty of CPU power, no hiccups.
A successful real world mixed sample rate scenario.

JT
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jdg

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2011, 12:30:56 am »

u can't run two copies of slingBlade... its an OSX thing, not an sB thing.

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Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2011, 02:29:00 am »

u can't run two copies of slingBlade... its an OSX thing, not an sB thing.

I don't think that sB will let you run two instances simultaneously, but ymmv.

You know what, I just remembered doing something in OS8 & OS9 days where you could run 2 instances of an application by duplicating it (cmd+d) to create another (copy). So I tried it on sB 2.0 build 3286 under OSX 10.6.5 & Viola! it worked :o Now for the even better news... both instances were able to utilise independent sound cards at different sample rates. Check out the attached screenshot... I think it works because of the way Core Audio allows multi-tasking. fwiw... this trick doesn't work with ProTools though unfortunately. 

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Table Of Tone

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2011, 07:55:31 am »

Did you duplicate the entire app in the applications folder and then open each of them?

One istance using Digi AES hardware and the other using the Lynx?
I'm intrigued! :)
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jdg

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2011, 06:12:58 pm »

 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
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Treelady

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2011, 07:24:30 pm »

Matt,

When I run two instances of Sequoia, each has its own AES card (one is RME AES-32 other Lynx AES-16).   Usually, the Lynx pitches at 96k into the Crane Song HEDD 192, the HEDD does the D/A.  At this point, the Lynx is the master clock for itself.   

The HEDD 192 then captures the analog chain at 44.1k and hands that to the other instance of Sequoia via AES through the RME card.   For that part of the system, the HEDD is the master clock and everyone digital (save the Lynx) is Word Clocked to it.  This method avoids any SRC after capture because the HEDD is doing the A/D at 44.1k

I hope this makes sense.
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2011, 10:22:58 pm »

You know what, I just remembered doing something in OS8 & OS9 days where you could run 2 instances of an application by duplicating it (cmd+d) to create another (copy). So I tried it on sB 2.0 build 3286 under OSX 10.6.5 & Viola! it worked :o Now for the even better news... both instances were able to utilise independent sound cards at different sample rates. Check out the attached screenshot... I think it works because of the way Core Audio allows multi-tasking. fwiw... this trick doesn't work with ProTools though unfortunately.

Brilliant move Matthew!

I use Cmd-D often with documents and files.

But forgot you could use it on Applications.

Seems too obvious somehow :-)

Let us know how it works out.

Does it create 2 sets of preferences etc?

JT
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Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2011, 09:39:59 am »

Matt,

When I run two instances of Sequoia, each has its own AES card (one is RME AES-32 other Lynx AES-16).   Usually, the Lynx pitches at 96k into the Crane Song HEDD 192, the HEDD does the D/A.  At this point, the Lynx is the master clock for itself.   

The HEDD 192 then captures the analog chain at 44.1k and hands that to the other instance of Sequoia via AES through the RME card.   For that part of the system, the HEDD is the master clock and everyone digital (save the Lynx) is Word Clocked to it.  This method avoids any SRC after capture because the HEDD is doing the A/D at 44.1k

I hope this makes sense.

Thanks Garrett, makes total sense. yesterday I tried a similar approach with PT's pitching at 96k through one of the Forssell DAC's through the analog chain & capturing through a Forssell A/D at 44.1kHz which was also the master clock (W/C on BNC) for a Lynx L22 card (AES-EBU) in an old PIV PC.  This machine usually does my metering but I thought I'd pre-emptively test out how this will sound. First impressions were very positive indeed but I'll reserve further comment until my AES16e card arrives (hopefully tomorrow). My soundBlade iLok asset went into my account today.

Brilliant move Matthew!

I use Cmd-D often with documents and files.

But forgot you could use it on Applications.

Seems too obvious somehow :-)

Let us know how it works out.

Does it create 2 sets of preferences etc?

JT

Thanks Jerry, I was chuffed that it actually worked. I won't be able to fully test it out until I have the Lynx AES16e in my work machine but I think it shares preferences. I'm not 100% sure but on first launch of the copied version it kept the exact same window location preferences so I assumed it made reference to the same preference file as the original instance. However all you really need to change is the audio card I/O & the sample rate which you can do quickly & easily while both instances are active. I'll report back when I've had time to play, to be honest though I think I'll be mostly using ProTools HD 9.02 to pitch at 96kHz as I have Sonic NoNoise in there (didn't want to pay for another version to run in sB) & also all my usual routing options including the Weiss DS1, HEDD (digitally inserted when required) & most of my preferred plug-ins & patching options etc. 

Did you duplicate the entire app in the applications folder and then open each of them?

just the soundBlade.app itself.. that's all & they can be in the same folder as long as they have different names i.e. leave the (copy) appendix amended to the title.

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One instance using Digi AES hardware and the other using the Lynx?
I'm intrigued! :)
   

In the test/screenshot posted I just used a USB soundcard I have plugged in on one instance & the built in optical digital I/O for the other instance. I still had the Digi 192 I/O occupied with PT's when I tried this & my Lynx card hasn't arrived yet (tomorrow). I'll try it all out properly this week & report back but in the meantime give it a go yourself & report here if you have 2 soundcards in your Mac.
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Table Of Tone

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2011, 03:12:25 pm »

I remember Dave McNare telling me that he does both pitch (WL) and catch (Sequoia) on one puter with two Lynx AES16's.
He has a second puter (WL) after the A to D that runs plugs in real time.
From there, the signal goes through a Lavry 3000 so he can hear what the SRC is actually doing in real time.
I tried a similar thing using a G5 (PMCD) to pitch, a PC (WL6) to run plugs, an Orpheus to do realtime SRC, and a macpro (sB) to catch.
Kinda cool to be able to tweak the plugs on the fly but all three puters all added up to too much noise in the room.
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adamgonsa

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2011, 05:17:56 pm »

You know what, I just remembered doing something in OS8 & OS9 days where you could run 2 instances of an application by duplicating it (cmd+d) to create another (copy). So I tried it on sB 2.0 build 3286 under OSX 10.6.5 & Viola! it worked :o Now for the even better news... both instances were able to utilise independent sound cards at different sample rates. Check out the attached screenshot... I think it works because of the way Core Audio allows multi-tasking. fwiw... this trick doesn't work with ProTools though unfortunately.
Awesome find Matt!  Now if we could just command+click to manually allocate memory to applications again I'd be really stoked!  BTW, the duplicated app trick doesn't work with Logic either.

I remember Dave McNare telling me that he does both pitch (WL) and catch (Sequoia) on one puter with two Lynx AES16's.
I'm testing a similar setup with WL catching what Logic pitches. The two Aes16e cards being clocked differently is no issue.  The one thing this setup is missing is a way for WL to add a plug in via the record dialog.  Since the master section doesn't take effect until you have a file inside the program to play I can't monitor the record input with a limiter on.  In the all-in-one setup I discussed earlier I usually insert a limiter at the very end of the chain and make EQ decisions with it on.  That works well because I could make processing decisions while taking the sound of the limiter into account. 

Any experienced WL users know how to mimic that workflow when WL is catching?  I've been through the ASK tutorial and spent loads of time poking around the menus...couldn't find anything. 
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Adam Gonsalves
Telegraph Mastering

pmx

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2011, 05:24:29 pm »

a .app is a folder, but the prefs have a specific location in Library so two instances always share prefs if i'm right. the command+d works for the TC Icon app as well, that way you can have all four engines open at all times, as if they were pluggies.
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