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Author Topic: Pitch/Catch  (Read 17980 times)

adamgonsa

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Pitch/Catch
« on: June 09, 2011, 11:38:16 am »

Just curious who uses a pitch/catch vs. offline SRC and if you ever want the benefits of another setup.

Up until now my workflow has been to work in whatever sample rate the mixes are delivered in, and the use AudioFile Engineering's Sample Manager to move everything down to 44.1 before assembly.  It's an extra step but the the application is easy to use and the Izotope SRC is one of the best

A recent spate of mixed sample rate sessions has me sold on setting up a pitch/catch system though.  I was thinking pitch with RX or Logic and catch with WL.

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Adam Gonsalves
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phonon

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2011, 02:11:16 pm »

Hi Adam,
     Am using 4 DAWs for mixed sample-rate premastering sessions.   One DAW is pitch only, another is pitch/catch, and the third and fourth are only for online (stream-through) plugins (modern incarnation of MultiRack in the form of DP and PT, both, using RME cards).   I keep the files at their native rate* for pitch by putting the hi res ones in Samplitude (on PC, of course) and the files that are already native to the 44.1 k target in the playback panel of Sonic (which is also the "catch" DAW).   Since Sonic is full duplex in/out, it can receive while playing out.   I reconvert at 88.2 k before brick wall limiting and use real-time SRC in front of the Sonic capture.   Although Saracon and some others are probably capable of sweet and/or transparent changes, I like the performance of the LE3000S in 2:1 synchronous downsample mode, as well as being able to hear what I will end up with while working at high res.   I draw fades in the pitch panels and capture completed premasters (16/44.1 k). 

In many ways, your existing approach is good.    Keep hi res hi as long as possible.  Hearing great sound is nice.  How much of it will translate and should you have zigged when you zagged???  DC stressed this approach (that of hearing the end result in real time) some time ago, and I think he was right...   Laarsų agrees, too, fwiw.   (;   

I think the theory is that you might have been able to shoe-horn a better ultimate sound if you could have heard it while you worked on the audio.   The only way for this, of course, is either to reconvert (post analog) to the target rate and be forced to limit at 1x - or - to use real-time SRC (_after_ Xx limiting).   I recommend either Lavry 3000S or Weiss SFC-2.   Otherwise, you have made a gorgeous hi res premaster that still needs to be premastered!   It's all down-hill from there.   :'(   


Andrew



* however, the DAC upsamples to 2x Fs before signal reconstruction, unless it's already there...
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aleatoric

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2011, 02:18:22 pm »

Up until now my workflow has been to work in whatever sample rate the mixes are delivered in, and the use AudioFile Engineering's Sample Manager to move everything down to 44.1 before assembly.  It's an extra step but the the application is easy to use and the Izotope SRC is one of the best.

Exact same workflow here!  iZotope 64-bit SRC is extremely transparent. 

A recent spate of mixed sample rate sessions has me sold on setting up a pitch/catch system though.  I was thinking pitch with RX or Logic and catch with WL.

Another option would be to up-sample all of the tracks to the highest sample rate in the session.  So if you have a a few mixes at 44.1, 48 and then a few at 88.2 up-sample the 44.1 and 48 tracks to 88.2 before you starting working and run the the session at 88.2. 
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jdg

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2011, 01:18:19 pm »

u already know how i feel about this :)

but i pitch with RX from OSX (can do source declicking (and it RX2 adv (at least) can host a plug if i want an EQ or something)) and catch with samp on PC

i hate offline SRC... just not my thing. i also love not having to worry about sample rate ever... the source is at source rates it auto switches the clock for me, and then my destination is always clocked at 44.1 (unless they want hi-res masters)

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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2011, 11:45:27 pm »

Pitch with PTHD or Peak Pro 6 (for 32-bit files) on a Mac G5 at the native Fs.

Catch w/ soundBlade on a Mac Pro, usually at 44.1kHz, or 96k for DVD-A.

WaveLab 7 also does a great job of catching.

Been using Sonoris DDP as of late to burn from DDP.

Although Sample Manager SRC is great stuff, I prefer the purity of separate pitch>catch.

seems like with SRC, I'm always aware of the processing, slightly changes the highs IMO.

JT
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adamgonsa

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2011, 01:52:56 pm »

Another option would be to up-sample all of the tracks to the highest sample rate in the session.  So if you have a a few mixes at 44.1, 48 and then a few at 88.2 up-sample the 44.1 and 48 tracks to 88.2 before you starting working and run the the session at 88.2.
I had considered that, but I avoid upsampling because in this case it's not really a necessary process, just something that improves workflow.  There's sometimes an audible difference in upsampling (even with iZotope) and I don't want to monkey with the signal just because it's more convenient. 

WaveLab 7 also does a great job of catching.
Hey Jerry, have you experienced any of the dropout problems with WL7 when recording into the audio workspace and then moving things over to montage for assembly?  I know lots of folks have problems with the ASIO loop, but the record function skips all that. 
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Adam Gonsalves
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aleatoric

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2011, 03:07:10 pm »

I had considered that, but I avoid upsampling because in this case it's not really a necessary process, just something that improves workflow.  There's sometimes an audible difference in upsampling (even with iZotope) and I don't want to monkey with the signal just because it's more convenient.

I hear ya.  At the same time though I have not found that upsampling using a high quality SRC such as iZotope's to be harmful or counter productive to the final product.  In fact there can even be some sonic benefits to doing this, mainly the behavior of certain digital processing after upsampling.  There are even some mastering engineers who always upsample before doing anything else (I remember reading Bob Katz works this way).  Anyway, I guess it all comes down to using your ears.  Such a small percentage of my projects come in at mixed sample rates and upsampling has proven to be a great way to deal with this in a one computer workflow.  If I ever heard negative or undesirable effects as a direct result from the upsampling I would simply run a separate session and work off the native sample rate for that/those track('s).  This has yet to happen though. 
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Table Of Tone

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2011, 04:12:29 pm »

Pitch on OSX using soundBlade at source SR.
Catch on Windoze using WL at 44.1 (once in a while at 88.2 if using a plug).

I prefer not to SRC if I can help it, as it always changes something.
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BiigNiick

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2011, 07:38:01 pm »

a lot of work i get starts at 44.1kHz, so i pitch/catch both with PT (mute point because no SRC).  if i have higher sample rates, sometimes i will pitch with the alesis MasterLink and catch with PT.  i just got a LYNX card and am excited with the pitch with PT and catch with WaveLab option :-)


 - nick

Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2011, 12:45:44 am »

Just ordered a Lynx AES16e to go with soundBlade which I just purchased used as well (used to only have PMCD).  So I'll be checking out pitching from ProTools HD at 96kHz & catching into sB at 44.1kHz all on the one machine. Hoping it all works :)
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2011, 07:40:28 am »

Hey Jerry, have you experienced any of the dropout problems with WL7 when recording into the audio workspace and then moving things over to montage for assembly?  I know lots of folks have problems with the ASIO loop, but the record function skips all that.

No dropouts here since the latest WL7 update, but thanks for the heads up.

I do most of the catching with Sonic sB, using WL7 to supplement, learning it in small steps, on the side.

Cheers, JT
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2011, 07:45:52 am »

Just ordered a Lynx AES16e to go with soundBlade which I just purchased used as well (used to only have PMCD).  So I'll be checking out pitching from ProTools HD at 96kHz & catching into sB at 44.1kHz all on the one machine. Hoping it all works :)

Hey Matt, it should work, depending on configuration, keep us posted!

JT
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Table Of Tone

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2011, 08:59:33 am »

Just ordered a Lynx AES16e to go with soundBlade which I just purchased used as well (used to only have PMCD).  So I'll be checking out pitching from ProTools HD at 96kHz & catching into sB at 44.1kHz all on the one machine. Hoping it all works :)
Let me how you get on with that?
I was thinking of getting another Lynx AES16e, throwing it in the mac (there's already one in there) and trying something similar using sB to pitch and WL7 to catch.
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Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2011, 09:44:32 am »

Yeah should be an interesting experiment. JT which is the most stable version of sB to use as of this moment? I have access to all the beta builds but I'd rather not be a guinea pig at this stage. Is 1.3.5 still the best version? I'm running Snow Leopard 10.6.5 on a 3.4GHz intel quad core with 8GB of RAM. Here's the interesting bit.. the PT's cards are in 3 x PCI slots on the main logic board & I will be putting the Lynx AES16e into one of the other 3 x PCIe slots. So hopefully with the 2 independent PCI busses (old & new) should keep things moving along nicely.

Also tell me this, can sB record through plug-ins destructively or at least allow you to audition through them in real time as you record? I want to be able to listen to the master through a limiter as I'm recording into sB. I'm also assuming you can have it in input mode & audition through the limiter when not recording too right?

I should have everything ready to roll out by early next week. I'll keep you guys posted.       
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Table Of Tone

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2011, 11:41:36 am »

Do you use a 192 to get AES out of PTHD?

sB can record through plugs, so you should be OK there.
I've been using sB 2.0 to pitch from on a mac pro but haven't used it for capture yet.

It's been around two years since I've used sB (1.3 something) for capture, but it was OK, just not as smooth to work with as WL6.
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2011, 12:53:13 pm »

Yeah should be an interesting experiment. JT which is the most stable version of sB to use as of this moment? I have access to all the beta builds but I'd rather not be a guinea pig at this stage. Is 1.3.5 still the best version?

Also tell me this, can sB record through plug-ins destructively or at least allow you to audition through them in real time as you record? I want to be able to listen to the master through a limiter as I'm recording into sB. I'm also assuming you can have it in input mode & audition through the limiter when not recording too right?

Hey Matt,
For the last year or so, I've been using sB 1.3.5 for actual attended sessions on OSX 10.5.8 w/8GB, been very stable.
(Seems like minor issues popped up when I tried 1.3.5 on Snow Leopard, don't remember exactly which now)
In the master section I'm using PSP Xenon v1.1 during catching, works just great, newer versions not.
Also the RND level meter, and occasional Spitfish & even Sonic EQ.
About once a week I'll blow out the preferences, and every 2-3 months reinstall the app to keep things running smoothly.

You can switch the PSP off, on the plug itself, or right click "bypass" on the master section. A little experimentation will help with creative ways to audition, like switching the input/output mode with keyboard strokes while making adjustments and comparing to other versions.

As to the Lynx AES16e card it's been great, the firmware & drivers may need to be updated, see their support page.
I like to uncheck the SynchroClock feature and clock to AES Digital 1. Not sure if Lynx needs to be in a certain type of PCIe slot, but iirc you're running a special CPU situation there.

I too am eagerly anticipating moving to sB 2.0 with Snow Leopard and PT 9, but I like to take small stable steps, especially with all the attended sessions done here. As a beta tester, can't comment much on sB 2.0 yet :-)

Looking forward to a productive dialog about this Matt (and everyone else), perhaps we could start a new dedicated thread about it.

Best JT
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Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2011, 10:03:48 am »

Do you use a 192 to get AES out of PTHD?

I have the Digital 192 I/O (no digidesign converters) which has 16 channels of digital I/O on AES/EBU (or T/DIF, ADAT & S/PDIF).

Quote
sB can record through plugs, so you should be OK there.
I've been using sB 2.0 to pitch from on a mac pro but haven't used it for capture yet.

It's been around two years since I've used sB (1.3 something) for capture, but it was OK, just not as smooth to work with as WL6.

good to know.. I guess seeing as WL7 seems a bit of a backwards step since WL6 I'm kinda glad I went with sB. I've learnt most of the essential stuff through using PMCD.

Hey Matt,
For the last year or so, I've been using sB 1.3.5 for actual attended sessions on OSX 10.5.8 w/8GB, been very stable.

I just downloaded sB 2.0 build 3286 & just ran it in demo mode while I'm waiting on my iLok asset to be deposited. Tried a few things & it seemed to be working quite well. I'll test more & report next week once my iLok asset goes in & the Lynx card arrives.
 
Quote
About once a week I'll blow out the preferences, and every 2-3 months reinstall the app to keep things running smoothly.


That sounds like a good way to maintain stability.

Quote
You can switch the PSP off, on the plug itself, or right click "bypass" on the master section. A little experimentation will help with creative ways to audition, like switching the input/output mode with keyboard strokes while making adjustments and comparing to other versions.

Had a play with that on the demo today, the plugs I loaded seemed to be functioning fine without problem so I'm happy about that. 

Quote
As to the Lynx AES16e card it's been great, the firmware & drivers may need to be updated, see their support page.
I like to uncheck the SynchroClock feature and clock to AES Digital 1. Not sure if Lynx needs to be in a certain type of PCIe slot, but iirc you're running a special CPU situation there.

I'd like to lock my whole system from the Forssell's clock, so plan on using W/C on BNC with the Lynx card. I'm hoping the Lynx card will run trouble free on the slot I have reserved for it. Can you upgrade the firmware on the Lynx on the OSX side?

Any tips Ade or JT on the optimal buffer/cache settings to run with this card? 

Quote
I too am eagerly anticipating moving to sB 2.0 with Snow Leopard and PT 9, but I like to take small stable steps, especially with all the attended sessions done here. As a beta tester, can't comment much on sB 2.0 yet :-)


I've been running PT's 9.0.2 & it's been pretty solid with only the occasional "esoteric" plug-in crash once in a while. Hoping that sB 2.0 3286 is also trouble free for the main aspects/functionality of the program that I'll be using it for. It seems like it's certainly come a long way since the first v1.0 trial I tried when it was first released. 


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Treelady

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2011, 05:49:30 pm »

Warning.  Statement of the Obvious.

So, there are different ways to do this.  One software title, or multiple?  One computer or multiple?   All are have advantages and disadvantages.  I like one PC that runs different instances of Sequoia.   The different instances can deal with different sample rates and being on the same box allows me to share iLok and UAD licences legally and with ease. 

That said, the only thing that I've found to be true for me is despite using a PC for pitch and catch, I still require an OSX machine in the studio to deal with SDII and other Mac-created files.  (Those of you who have had good experiences with MacDisc I respect you and am in awe of your success but I would boot that title over the moon before I would ever use it again.  Give me a real machine any day). 

As for the SRC up / down debate.   That gets complicated.  Some of us feel that plug ins sound better at higher rates, BUT: some plug ins upsample internally anyway, and some of us rarely ever use plugs, so it can be processing and work for no good reason. 

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Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2011, 10:13:44 pm »

I like one PC that runs different instances of Sequoia.   The different instances can deal with different sample rates and being on the same box allows me to share iLok and UAD licences legally and with ease. 

This I find interesting & seems more commonly acceptable with PC to be able to run 2 instances of the same program on the one machine. For instance ProTools won't even allow you to run ProTools HD with the HD hardware & a native version of ProTools on the same machine. I asked Avid on the DUC about if this was possible & they basically said maybe if I was living on a different planet it might be technically possible. Strange response from one of the admins at Avid CS but there you go.

I have a question Garrett, when you say you can run 2 instances of Sequoia with different sample rates, is that utilising a different soundcard for each instance i.e. 2 x soundcards? Or does Sequoia just do real time sample rate conversion to allow the different physical file rates? I ask because I know programs like Reaper allow you to run multiple sample rate files in the same session but that's because it's sample rate converting them on playback (monitoring only) in real-time.

JT or Ade - I wonder is it possible to run 2 instances of soundBlade on 2 different soundcards for catching & pitching at different sample rates? I know you can have more than one session open at a time but assumed this would still be restricted to using the same sound card right?   

Quote
That said, the only thing that I've found to be true for me is despite using a PC for pitch and catch, I still require an OSX machine in the studio to deal with SDII and other Mac-created files.

I would've thought there was software that could open or import SDII on PC surely? I thought Adobe Audition & Wavelab could open SDII? btw.. I have had good experiences with MacDrive on PC reading Mac HFS+ formatted drives. :)

Quote
As for the SRC up / down debate.   That gets complicated.  Some of us feel that plug ins sound better at higher rates, BUT: some plug ins upsample internally anyway, and some of us rarely ever use plugs, so it can be processing and work for no good reason.

Totally.. a lot of people that argue that upsampling degrades the signal & sounds best left at the native 1 X FS rate either choose to ignore the fact that a number of digital processors & plug-ins are doing up/down SRC internally or they're ignorant to this. If using any of these digital processors things like the Weiss units, Massenburg digital EQ's & numerous others you may as well control it yourself by using a dedicated high quality off-line SRC & upsample to 2 X FS before starting work. The only time I don't is if the mix sounds amazing & doesn't require digital processing prior to the analog chain.

What I hope to achieve with adding sB & a second soundcard to my workflow is to have the option of capturing off the analog path directly to 44.1kHz which will allow me to audition my work at the destination rate in real-time & to remove the need for a 96k to 44.1kHz off-line SRC. It'll be interesting to see which way sounds better as the Forssell converters always capture at 200kHz & then SRC internally at 32bit floating point to the output SR selected on the A/D. So in some ways I'll be comparing the Forssell SRC to the iZotope SRC I usually use to do the job. If the differences in quality are negligible it will still be a time saver for my workflow & allow me to hear exactly what the finished product will sound like as I'm working on it. So those benefits alone will make it worthwhile. What I'm hoping is that I don't prefer the sound of the off-line SRC over the Forssell one. Because then it will make it a harder decision to move to the new way of working.

I also believe most converters or more the clock in each converter is usually optimised for the highest sample rate so they usually sound better at the higher rates. This is one reason I think the Forssell design has it over the others as it is always capturing at the highest possible SF & then converting that down to the required destination rate. The proof is in the pudding though, theory's aside.. the fact is that the Forssell just sounds incredibly focused & detailed & in my room beat out all the top end usual brands imo.

         
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2011, 12:28:22 am »

Hey Matt,

You can download the latest Lynx firmware on their support page.
I just go with the default buffer settings, no need to change unless there's an issue.

I don't think that sB will let you run two instances simultaneously, but ymmv.

However I did a successful pitch/catch test today:

Both PT9 & sB 2.0 running simultaneously, original Mac Pro on OSX 10.6.6 w/8GB.
sB 2.0 on the Lynx AES-16e card/driver clocked to the Lavry ADC for capture.
Pro Tools 9.0.3, 96k session running on 002 Hardware.
Routed it's output through my analog EQ path.
Captured the result on sB 2.0 (latest build) at 24-44.1k with PSP Xenon active in the master section.
Worked just great, no problems, at all, whatsoever.
Plenty of CPU power, no hiccups.
A successful real world mixed sample rate scenario.

JT
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jdg

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2011, 12:30:56 am »

u can't run two copies of slingBlade... its an OSX thing, not an sB thing.

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Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2011, 02:29:00 am »

u can't run two copies of slingBlade... its an OSX thing, not an sB thing.

I don't think that sB will let you run two instances simultaneously, but ymmv.

You know what, I just remembered doing something in OS8 & OS9 days where you could run 2 instances of an application by duplicating it (cmd+d) to create another (copy). So I tried it on sB 2.0 build 3286 under OSX 10.6.5 & Viola! it worked :o Now for the even better news... both instances were able to utilise independent sound cards at different sample rates. Check out the attached screenshot... I think it works because of the way Core Audio allows multi-tasking. fwiw... this trick doesn't work with ProTools though unfortunately. 

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Table Of Tone

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2011, 07:55:31 am »

Did you duplicate the entire app in the applications folder and then open each of them?

One istance using Digi AES hardware and the other using the Lynx?
I'm intrigued! :)
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jdg

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2011, 06:12:58 pm »

 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
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Treelady

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2011, 07:24:30 pm »

Matt,

When I run two instances of Sequoia, each has its own AES card (one is RME AES-32 other Lynx AES-16).   Usually, the Lynx pitches at 96k into the Crane Song HEDD 192, the HEDD does the D/A.  At this point, the Lynx is the master clock for itself.   

The HEDD 192 then captures the analog chain at 44.1k and hands that to the other instance of Sequoia via AES through the RME card.   For that part of the system, the HEDD is the master clock and everyone digital (save the Lynx) is Word Clocked to it.  This method avoids any SRC after capture because the HEDD is doing the A/D at 44.1k

I hope this makes sense.
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2011, 10:22:58 pm »

You know what, I just remembered doing something in OS8 & OS9 days where you could run 2 instances of an application by duplicating it (cmd+d) to create another (copy). So I tried it on sB 2.0 build 3286 under OSX 10.6.5 & Viola! it worked :o Now for the even better news... both instances were able to utilise independent sound cards at different sample rates. Check out the attached screenshot... I think it works because of the way Core Audio allows multi-tasking. fwiw... this trick doesn't work with ProTools though unfortunately.

Brilliant move Matthew!

I use Cmd-D often with documents and files.

But forgot you could use it on Applications.

Seems too obvious somehow :-)

Let us know how it works out.

Does it create 2 sets of preferences etc?

JT
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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2011, 09:39:59 am »

Matt,

When I run two instances of Sequoia, each has its own AES card (one is RME AES-32 other Lynx AES-16).   Usually, the Lynx pitches at 96k into the Crane Song HEDD 192, the HEDD does the D/A.  At this point, the Lynx is the master clock for itself.   

The HEDD 192 then captures the analog chain at 44.1k and hands that to the other instance of Sequoia via AES through the RME card.   For that part of the system, the HEDD is the master clock and everyone digital (save the Lynx) is Word Clocked to it.  This method avoids any SRC after capture because the HEDD is doing the A/D at 44.1k

I hope this makes sense.

Thanks Garrett, makes total sense. yesterday I tried a similar approach with PT's pitching at 96k through one of the Forssell DAC's through the analog chain & capturing through a Forssell A/D at 44.1kHz which was also the master clock (W/C on BNC) for a Lynx L22 card (AES-EBU) in an old PIV PC.  This machine usually does my metering but I thought I'd pre-emptively test out how this will sound. First impressions were very positive indeed but I'll reserve further comment until my AES16e card arrives (hopefully tomorrow). My soundBlade iLok asset went into my account today.

Brilliant move Matthew!

I use Cmd-D often with documents and files.

But forgot you could use it on Applications.

Seems too obvious somehow :-)

Let us know how it works out.

Does it create 2 sets of preferences etc?

JT

Thanks Jerry, I was chuffed that it actually worked. I won't be able to fully test it out until I have the Lynx AES16e in my work machine but I think it shares preferences. I'm not 100% sure but on first launch of the copied version it kept the exact same window location preferences so I assumed it made reference to the same preference file as the original instance. However all you really need to change is the audio card I/O & the sample rate which you can do quickly & easily while both instances are active. I'll report back when I've had time to play, to be honest though I think I'll be mostly using ProTools HD 9.02 to pitch at 96kHz as I have Sonic NoNoise in there (didn't want to pay for another version to run in sB) & also all my usual routing options including the Weiss DS1, HEDD (digitally inserted when required) & most of my preferred plug-ins & patching options etc. 

Did you duplicate the entire app in the applications folder and then open each of them?

just the soundBlade.app itself.. that's all & they can be in the same folder as long as they have different names i.e. leave the (copy) appendix amended to the title.

Quote
One instance using Digi AES hardware and the other using the Lynx?
I'm intrigued! :)
   

In the test/screenshot posted I just used a USB soundcard I have plugged in on one instance & the built in optical digital I/O for the other instance. I still had the Digi 192 I/O occupied with PT's when I tried this & my Lynx card hasn't arrived yet (tomorrow). I'll try it all out properly this week & report back but in the meantime give it a go yourself & report here if you have 2 soundcards in your Mac.
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Table Of Tone

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2011, 03:12:25 pm »

I remember Dave McNare telling me that he does both pitch (WL) and catch (Sequoia) on one puter with two Lynx AES16's.
He has a second puter (WL) after the A to D that runs plugs in real time.
From there, the signal goes through a Lavry 3000 so he can hear what the SRC is actually doing in real time.
I tried a similar thing using a G5 (PMCD) to pitch, a PC (WL6) to run plugs, an Orpheus to do realtime SRC, and a macpro (sB) to catch.
Kinda cool to be able to tweak the plugs on the fly but all three puters all added up to too much noise in the room.
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adamgonsa

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2011, 05:17:56 pm »

You know what, I just remembered doing something in OS8 & OS9 days where you could run 2 instances of an application by duplicating it (cmd+d) to create another (copy). So I tried it on sB 2.0 build 3286 under OSX 10.6.5 & Viola! it worked :o Now for the even better news... both instances were able to utilise independent sound cards at different sample rates. Check out the attached screenshot... I think it works because of the way Core Audio allows multi-tasking. fwiw... this trick doesn't work with ProTools though unfortunately.
Awesome find Matt!  Now if we could just command+click to manually allocate memory to applications again I'd be really stoked!  BTW, the duplicated app trick doesn't work with Logic either.

I remember Dave McNare telling me that he does both pitch (WL) and catch (Sequoia) on one puter with two Lynx AES16's.
I'm testing a similar setup with WL catching what Logic pitches. The two Aes16e cards being clocked differently is no issue.  The one thing this setup is missing is a way for WL to add a plug in via the record dialog.  Since the master section doesn't take effect until you have a file inside the program to play I can't monitor the record input with a limiter on.  In the all-in-one setup I discussed earlier I usually insert a limiter at the very end of the chain and make EQ decisions with it on.  That works well because I could make processing decisions while taking the sound of the limiter into account. 

Any experienced WL users know how to mimic that workflow when WL is catching?  I've been through the ASK tutorial and spent loads of time poking around the menus...couldn't find anything. 
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Adam Gonsalves
Telegraph Mastering

pmx

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2011, 05:24:29 pm »

a .app is a folder, but the prefs have a specific location in Library so two instances always share prefs if i'm right. the command+d works for the TC Icon app as well, that way you can have all four engines open at all times, as if they were pluggies.
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Paul Matthijs Lombert | The Mastering Factory

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2011, 05:57:17 pm »

Any experienced WL users know how to mimic that workflow when WL is catching?  I've been through the ASK tutorial and spent loads of time poking around the menus...couldn't find anything.
You can do that with WL6 by opening the ASIO plug in the top slot and setting it to external input and selecting the sample rate if you're wanting anything other than 44.1.
You then press play to monitor the audio with any plugs you want in slots 2 to 8.
Just select render to record and press stop once you've put it down.

I couldn't seem to get WL7 (mac) to do this when I tried it this morning.
Actually managed to crash it too!
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Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2011, 11:36:16 am »

Lynx AES16e card arrived today, set it up, Core Audio & soundBlade 2.0 3286 picked up the card instantly. Set it up for External sync on W/C BNC from my Forssell A/D at 44.1kHz, everything locked beautifully. Created a new session in sB, fired up PT's 9.0.2 at 96kHz for playback, set sB to catch at 44.1kHz. Played back PT's & enjoyed a glitch free experience. Mastering through this signal flow was everything I was hoping it would be. With the exception of working/listening to the 16bit 44.1kHz all day (not as rewarding sonically as hearing hi-res 24bit 96kHz all day).

After some testing it was quite apparent that the finished product using this work-flow, sounded more natural than an offline SRC'd version of a 96kHz capture. The most noticeable thing I discovered was that the image felt more stable (stronger center), less smearing of transients (drums retained more snap/punch), more body in the LF's, less hype in the HF's. Negatives... distortion from limiting or A/D clipping was a touch more obvious than the 96kHz pass. 
     
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jdg

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2011, 03:23:15 pm »

thats why im surprised it works (two copies of slingBlade)
it should be clobbering its prefs left and right...
it might load it into ram and write prefs on close, but wtf knows....

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John McCaig
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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2011, 06:06:28 pm »

Lynx AES16e card arrived today, set it up, Core Audio & soundBlade 2.0 3286 picked up the card instantly. Set it up for External sync on W/C BNC from my Forssell A/D at 44.1kHz, everything locked beautifully. Created a new session in sB, fired up PT's 9.0.2 at 96kHz for playback, set sB to catch at 44.1kHz. Played back PT's & enjoyed a glitch free experience. Mastering through this signal flow was everything I was hoping it would be. With the exception of working/listening to the 16bit 44.1kHz all day (not as rewarding sonically as hearing hi-res 24bit 96kHz all day).

After some testing it was quite apparent that the finished product using this work-flow, sounded more natural than an offline SRC'd version of a 96kHz capture. The most noticeable thing I discovered was that the image felt more stable (stronger center), less smearing of transients (drums retained more snap/punch), more body in the LF's, less hype in the HF's. Negatives... distortion from limiting or A/D clipping was a touch more obvious than the 96kHz pass. 

Good news is that sB 2.0 build 3286 is extremely solid on Intel/Snow Leopard. Looks like I jumped in at just the right time.

   
That's a very cool thing that it all works and that you're noticing a mainly positive difference!
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Treelady

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2011, 11:00:26 pm »

We are such dweebs.

I'm happy I know you all. (really).

What a thread.

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______________________________________________
Garrett Haines
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Senior Contributor, Tape Op Magazine

Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2011, 12:31:45 am »

We are happy to twiddle knobs (no rude come backs please  ::) ), rubbing our chin as we lean into the sweet spot. Once in a while we even put our lab coats on & when we discover new things we get all giddy like a little school girl. Yes we are audio nerds/geeks/dweebs but you know what...

It's the best job in the world :) 
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adamgonsa

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2011, 02:04:36 am »

Dirty, low down, rotten, shameless nerds.  Good way to be.  :D

Mastering through this signal flow was everything I was hoping it would be. With the exception of working/listening to the 16bit 44.1kHz all day (not as rewarding sonically as hearing hi-res 24bit 96kHz all day).
So Matt, are you catching at 16-bit as well?  I am still going 24 until the last possible moment so any final processing can benefit from the extra depth.

When I get 24bit files that is.....
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Adam Gonsalves
Telegraph Mastering

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2011, 02:33:01 am »

Dirty, low down, rotten, shameless nerds.  Good way to be.  :D
So Matt, are you catching at 16-bit as well?  I am still going 24 until the last possible moment so any final processing can benefit from the extra depth.

When I get 24bit files that is.....

Yeah still capturing at 24bit but auditioning through a limiter with 16bit dither. This doesn't effect the recorded file which is still 24bit & not processed by the plug-in until you export it. You're right in that it's best to capture at 24bit so you can do all fades at the higher bit rate before dithering/exporting the final product to 16bit.
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Laarsų

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2011, 07:24:42 am »

...it's best to capture at 24bit so you can do all fades at the higher bit rate before dithering/exporting the final product to 16bit.

We capture the file at 16 bit res, since we are doing fades in Source EDL to mix file before processing.   Although Katz likes/used to like? to build album in advance using MIDI-activated process-on-Load Out, we find that all songs are going to be singles in iTunes shuffle, anyway, so, just treating each as a single and then nudging to the album sequence is sufficient, provided a known playback volume knob setting on console is repeatable for each premaster... For gaps between songs of digital black, we are 3-point editing in "room tone" in the form of analog silence.


Servų,
     Laarsų
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Laars Oglethorpe, V
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adamgonsa

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2011, 10:59:15 am »

You can do that with WL6 by opening the ASIO plug in the top slot and setting it to external input and selecting the sample rate if you're wanting anything other than 44.1.
You then press play to monitor the audio with any plugs you want in slots 2 to 8.
Just select render to record and press stop once you've put it down.

I couldn't seem to get WL7 (mac) to do this when I tried it this morning.
Actually managed to crash it too!
I can't get it to work either.  Also caused a crash on my end; trashing the .plist didn't help.   >:(
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Adam Gonsalves
Telegraph Mastering

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2011, 11:18:48 am »

That's actually a pretty big issue with WL7 on a mac!

Many ME's will wanna audition their capture via a plug.
soundBlade can do that with no problems.
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Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2011, 01:09:50 pm »

That's actually a pretty big issue with WL7 on a mac!

Many ME's will wanna audition their capture via a plug.
soundBlade can do that with no problems.

We're still not out of the woods with sB though, you can't render destructively through a plug-in in real-time during a capture (well not intentionally lol) & the bussing which is virtually non-existent in sB doesn't work when capturing from a physical input source through sB. All of this & heaps more routing possibilities are a cinch in ProTools. I also had a lot of trouble exporting a track from sB with 2 plug-ins on the master output. It rendered the file but wouldn't re-import/replace the old file for editing even with that option ticked (throws up some error that it couldn't find the rendered file even though it's sitting there).

Seems no one can make a decent/reliable/functional mastering app for Mac these days. They're either buggy, lacking essential features or the GUI is dated or all three. Hopefully Magix will do a good job of porting Sequoia to OSX if they get around to it some day.

It's times like this I wish I could run two instances of PT's on the same machine.
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adamgonsa

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2011, 01:21:51 pm »

That's actually a pretty big issue with WL7 on a mac!

Many ME's will wanna audition their capture via a plug.
soundBlade can do that with no problems.
I agree!  The workarounds needed to mimic this (basic) function are ridiculous. 
Quote from: Matt_G
It's times like this I wish I could run two instances of PT's on the same machine.
For real.  For me logic is perfect except it can't do assembly, and waveburner (while it's easy on the eyes and easy to use) makes me paranoid with all those well documented problems.  Plus it can't catch (no record/input dialog). 

I dunno...anyone ever tried wave editor?
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Adam Gonsalves
Telegraph Mastering

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2011, 01:24:32 pm »

We capture the file at 16 bit res, since we are doing fades in Source EDL to mix file before processing. 

I still have some reservations about this approach, firstly if the client decides they don't like the fade & you've rendered it pre-processing it could mean a recall (not so bad if you're all ITB processing). Secondly, you'll still have audible analog noise floor over the lowest level parts of a fade whereas fading down the tail post-processing means the noise floor goes down with it. Lastly, if you've faded pre-processing (comp/limiter) the fades can sometimes sound a bit weird as they're often way more dynamic compared to the point just before the fade out (depends on what's needed of course). 

Doing the fade post processing eliminates all these issues. Not sure about you but most of the EP's & albums I work on are still going to CD as well as being digitally released. So I'd much rather have the fades left till last so I can tweak them for the ideal transitions in the destination EDL for the CD release.  It's still easy enough to export out individually faded tracks for the iTunes release after it's all done.

As for "analog silence" I only add noise between tracks when a client requests it, some even ask for good old fashioned tape hiss or vinyl crackle, other times there is transitions built into the tracks for crossfade edits. 
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Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2011, 01:32:41 pm »

I agree!  The workarounds needed to mimic this (basic) function are ridiculous.  For real.  For me logic is perfect except it can't do assembly, and waveburner (while it's easy on the eyes and easy to use) makes me paranoid with all those well documented problems.  Plus it can't catch (no record/input dialog). 

I dunno...anyone ever tried wave editor?

I used to use WaveBummer for years.. it's ok for assembly & with 1.6.1 I think all the 15 bit bugs are squashed (pun intended  :P) but as you say there is still no record/input functionality. I also have WaveEditor & use it daily for prepping singles for digital release. The SRC, dithering & general functions are quite good, it just feels a bit light on for features & the recording aspect, metering & assembly are bit antiquated. There is no provision to record through or audition through plug-ins either.

If ProTools had built in CD burning & proper PQ functionality I wouldn't look at anything else. The mixer routing is ridiculously good, ok the fades could be better but otherwise it's rockin' & so dependable/reliable really. I've been using it getting on 13 year now.   

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jdg

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2011, 02:29:46 pm »

Seems no one can make a decent/reliable/functional mastering app for Mac these days. They're either buggy, lacking essential features or the GUI is dated or all three. Hopefully Magix will do a good job of porting Sequoia to OSX if they get around to it some day. .

exactly why i switched to samp in at the beginning of 2010.
pitch on OSX -> catch on PC on samp = so much heaven.

(except i've been burning through KVMs like they're candy :( )
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John McCaig
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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2011, 06:41:34 pm »

We're still not out of the woods with sB though, you can't render destructively through a plug-in in real-time during a capture (well not intentionally lol) & the bussing which is virtually non-existent in sB doesn't work when capturing from a physical input source through sB.
I used to occasionally record through a plug on sB 1.3 (something).
You just set meters containing the plug slots to input.

I did a few records with a plug doing an extra dB on the way back in.

Not tried it in sB 2.0 though.
I usually pitch with that.

I'll give it a go for capture N get back to ya.
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Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2011, 01:17:17 am »

I used to occasionally record through a plug on sB 1.3 (something).
You just set meters containing the plug slots to input.

I did a few records with a plug doing an extra dB on the way back in.

You can definitely audition in real time through the plug-in but recording through it as a rendered file in one pass I don't think is possible? although there was a couple of times where it seemed to do it by accident but can't repeat it reliably, perhaps a bug?? Toggling the input/output button on the master meters panel shows the levels on the meters only, it doesn't affect what's being recorded unless you're talking about mono plugins on the EDL Desk? Haven't tried putting plug-ins on there yet as I don't like the idea of multi-mono in those slots. 
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rossn

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2011, 04:21:24 pm »

Nuendo > Samplitude
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