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Author Topic: Pitch/Catch  (Read 17811 times)

adamgonsa

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Pitch/Catch
« on: June 09, 2011, 11:38:16 am »

Just curious who uses a pitch/catch vs. offline SRC and if you ever want the benefits of another setup.

Up until now my workflow has been to work in whatever sample rate the mixes are delivered in, and the use AudioFile Engineering's Sample Manager to move everything down to 44.1 before assembly.  It's an extra step but the the application is easy to use and the Izotope SRC is one of the best

A recent spate of mixed sample rate sessions has me sold on setting up a pitch/catch system though.  I was thinking pitch with RX or Logic and catch with WL.

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Adam Gonsalves
Telegraph Mastering

phonon

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2011, 02:11:16 pm »

Hi Adam,
     Am using 4 DAWs for mixed sample-rate premastering sessions.   One DAW is pitch only, another is pitch/catch, and the third and fourth are only for online (stream-through) plugins (modern incarnation of MultiRack in the form of DP and PT, both, using RME cards).   I keep the files at their native rate* for pitch by putting the hi res ones in Samplitude (on PC, of course) and the files that are already native to the 44.1 k target in the playback panel of Sonic (which is also the "catch" DAW).   Since Sonic is full duplex in/out, it can receive while playing out.   I reconvert at 88.2 k before brick wall limiting and use real-time SRC in front of the Sonic capture.   Although Saracon and some others are probably capable of sweet and/or transparent changes, I like the performance of the LE3000S in 2:1 synchronous downsample mode, as well as being able to hear what I will end up with while working at high res.   I draw fades in the pitch panels and capture completed premasters (16/44.1 k). 

In many ways, your existing approach is good.    Keep hi res hi as long as possible.  Hearing great sound is nice.  How much of it will translate and should you have zigged when you zagged???  DC stressed this approach (that of hearing the end result in real time) some time ago, and I think he was right...   Laarsų agrees, too, fwiw.   (;   

I think the theory is that you might have been able to shoe-horn a better ultimate sound if you could have heard it while you worked on the audio.   The only way for this, of course, is either to reconvert (post analog) to the target rate and be forced to limit at 1x - or - to use real-time SRC (_after_ Xx limiting).   I recommend either Lavry 3000S or Weiss SFC-2.   Otherwise, you have made a gorgeous hi res premaster that still needs to be premastered!   It's all down-hill from there.   :'(   


Andrew



* however, the DAC upsamples to 2x Fs before signal reconstruction, unless it's already there...
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aleatoric

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2011, 02:18:22 pm »

Up until now my workflow has been to work in whatever sample rate the mixes are delivered in, and the use AudioFile Engineering's Sample Manager to move everything down to 44.1 before assembly.  It's an extra step but the the application is easy to use and the Izotope SRC is one of the best.

Exact same workflow here!  iZotope 64-bit SRC is extremely transparent. 

A recent spate of mixed sample rate sessions has me sold on setting up a pitch/catch system though.  I was thinking pitch with RX or Logic and catch with WL.

Another option would be to up-sample all of the tracks to the highest sample rate in the session.  So if you have a a few mixes at 44.1, 48 and then a few at 88.2 up-sample the 44.1 and 48 tracks to 88.2 before you starting working and run the the session at 88.2. 
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jdg

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2011, 01:18:19 pm »

u already know how i feel about this :)

but i pitch with RX from OSX (can do source declicking (and it RX2 adv (at least) can host a plug if i want an EQ or something)) and catch with samp on PC

i hate offline SRC... just not my thing. i also love not having to worry about sample rate ever... the source is at source rates it auto switches the clock for me, and then my destination is always clocked at 44.1 (unless they want hi-res masters)

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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2011, 11:45:27 pm »

Pitch with PTHD or Peak Pro 6 (for 32-bit files) on a Mac G5 at the native Fs.

Catch w/ soundBlade on a Mac Pro, usually at 44.1kHz, or 96k for DVD-A.

WaveLab 7 also does a great job of catching.

Been using Sonoris DDP as of late to burn from DDP.

Although Sample Manager SRC is great stuff, I prefer the purity of separate pitch>catch.

seems like with SRC, I'm always aware of the processing, slightly changes the highs IMO.

JT
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adamgonsa

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2011, 01:52:56 pm »

Another option would be to up-sample all of the tracks to the highest sample rate in the session.  So if you have a a few mixes at 44.1, 48 and then a few at 88.2 up-sample the 44.1 and 48 tracks to 88.2 before you starting working and run the the session at 88.2.
I had considered that, but I avoid upsampling because in this case it's not really a necessary process, just something that improves workflow.  There's sometimes an audible difference in upsampling (even with iZotope) and I don't want to monkey with the signal just because it's more convenient. 

WaveLab 7 also does a great job of catching.
Hey Jerry, have you experienced any of the dropout problems with WL7 when recording into the audio workspace and then moving things over to montage for assembly?  I know lots of folks have problems with the ASIO loop, but the record function skips all that. 
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Adam Gonsalves
Telegraph Mastering

aleatoric

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2011, 03:07:10 pm »

I had considered that, but I avoid upsampling because in this case it's not really a necessary process, just something that improves workflow.  There's sometimes an audible difference in upsampling (even with iZotope) and I don't want to monkey with the signal just because it's more convenient.

I hear ya.  At the same time though I have not found that upsampling using a high quality SRC such as iZotope's to be harmful or counter productive to the final product.  In fact there can even be some sonic benefits to doing this, mainly the behavior of certain digital processing after upsampling.  There are even some mastering engineers who always upsample before doing anything else (I remember reading Bob Katz works this way).  Anyway, I guess it all comes down to using your ears.  Such a small percentage of my projects come in at mixed sample rates and upsampling has proven to be a great way to deal with this in a one computer workflow.  If I ever heard negative or undesirable effects as a direct result from the upsampling I would simply run a separate session and work off the native sample rate for that/those track('s).  This has yet to happen though. 
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Table Of Tone

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2011, 04:12:29 pm »

Pitch on OSX using soundBlade at source SR.
Catch on Windoze using WL at 44.1 (once in a while at 88.2 if using a plug).

I prefer not to SRC if I can help it, as it always changes something.
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BiigNiick

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2011, 07:38:01 pm »

a lot of work i get starts at 44.1kHz, so i pitch/catch both with PT (mute point because no SRC).  if i have higher sample rates, sometimes i will pitch with the alesis MasterLink and catch with PT.  i just got a LYNX card and am excited with the pitch with PT and catch with WaveLab option :-)


 - nick

Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2011, 12:45:44 am »

Just ordered a Lynx AES16e to go with soundBlade which I just purchased used as well (used to only have PMCD).  So I'll be checking out pitching from ProTools HD at 96kHz & catching into sB at 44.1kHz all on the one machine. Hoping it all works :)
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2011, 07:40:28 am »

Hey Jerry, have you experienced any of the dropout problems with WL7 when recording into the audio workspace and then moving things over to montage for assembly?  I know lots of folks have problems with the ASIO loop, but the record function skips all that.

No dropouts here since the latest WL7 update, but thanks for the heads up.

I do most of the catching with Sonic sB, using WL7 to supplement, learning it in small steps, on the side.

Cheers, JT
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2011, 07:45:52 am »

Just ordered a Lynx AES16e to go with soundBlade which I just purchased used as well (used to only have PMCD).  So I'll be checking out pitching from ProTools HD at 96kHz & catching into sB at 44.1kHz all on the one machine. Hoping it all works :)

Hey Matt, it should work, depending on configuration, keep us posted!

JT
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Table Of Tone

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2011, 08:59:33 am »

Just ordered a Lynx AES16e to go with soundBlade which I just purchased used as well (used to only have PMCD).  So I'll be checking out pitching from ProTools HD at 96kHz & catching into sB at 44.1kHz all on the one machine. Hoping it all works :)
Let me how you get on with that?
I was thinking of getting another Lynx AES16e, throwing it in the mac (there's already one in there) and trying something similar using sB to pitch and WL7 to catch.
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Matt_G

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2011, 09:44:32 am »

Yeah should be an interesting experiment. JT which is the most stable version of sB to use as of this moment? I have access to all the beta builds but I'd rather not be a guinea pig at this stage. Is 1.3.5 still the best version? I'm running Snow Leopard 10.6.5 on a 3.4GHz intel quad core with 8GB of RAM. Here's the interesting bit.. the PT's cards are in 3 x PCI slots on the main logic board & I will be putting the Lynx AES16e into one of the other 3 x PCIe slots. So hopefully with the 2 independent PCI busses (old & new) should keep things moving along nicely.

Also tell me this, can sB record through plug-ins destructively or at least allow you to audition through them in real time as you record? I want to be able to listen to the master through a limiter as I'm recording into sB. I'm also assuming you can have it in input mode & audition through the limiter when not recording too right?

I should have everything ready to roll out by early next week. I'll keep you guys posted.       
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Table Of Tone

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Re: Pitch/Catch
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2011, 11:41:36 am »

Do you use a 192 to get AES out of PTHD?

sB can record through plugs, so you should be OK there.
I've been using sB 2.0 to pitch from on a mac pro but haven't used it for capture yet.

It's been around two years since I've used sB (1.3 something) for capture, but it was OK, just not as smooth to work with as WL6.
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