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Author Topic: About Cables  (Read 14033 times)

Jon Hodgson

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About Cables
« on: July 13, 2006, 07:55:29 AM »

Dan,

Since we've already established that cables are an area where there are many misconceptions and many charlatans ready to take the money of the unwary, I think it would be useful for people to know what is and is not important.

Noone wants to be ripped off, but on the other hand noone wants to end up with rubbish.

So, in the simplest terms, what should people really look for in a cable?

For Microphones
For Line level
For speakers
For digital connections

??
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danlavry

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2006, 06:50:38 PM »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 12:55

Dan,

Since we've already established that cables are an area where there are many misconceptions and many charlatans ready to take the money of the unwary, I think it would be useful for people to know what is and is not important.

Noone wants to be ripped off, but on the other hand noone wants to end up with rubbish.

So, in the simplest terms, what should people really look for in a cable?

For Microphones
For Line level
For speakers
For digital connections

??



Hello Jon,

On this forum about a year ago I did have a cable and clock thread that took a lot of my time. I had graphs, lots of technical information and straight forward talk. Reader interest was extremely high, there were lots of posts some extremely clever and creative. These were the 2 most popular threads here since the forum began.

My truths, however, were taken as personal insults by a well-known converter company who sells cables. "Out of the blue", the threads were gone. Politics and censorship won out over truth. I was not asked or notified ahead of time. Many here thought that  I had removed the clock thread and the cable thread. I did not. I was as surprised as everyone to see them gone.

I was later told that it was "becoming a war between 2 manufactures". It was not. I was talking about the technical aspects, and at times pointing out various "marketing sleaze" aimed at confusing the customer. I did use a word that was objectionable to the people running ProSound Web that word was "Bull Shit" At the time there was a wonderful book published by Harry G. Frankfurt is Professor of Philosophy Emeritus at Princeton University, called "Bull Shit" http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/titles/7929.html

If any of you have read it you will know that what he said was relevant to the discussion we were having on that thread. Jon Stewart had Harry on "The Daily Show".

I almost left ProSound Web but instead decided to start my company forum http://www.lavryengineering.com where I now post information that may be objectionable to the people who run this forum.

Dan Lavry
Lavry Engineering, Inc.
http://www.lavryengineering.com
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pipelineaudio

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2006, 03:19:54 AM »

did anyone ever make a copy of these threads? Smile

nirguni

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2006, 03:41:40 PM »

I am hoping at least Dan made a copy and / or...
it is somewhere on his personal comps.

May be Dan can put the required info on his Lavryengineering forum as a tutorial or a thread?

That will be so useful to all of us
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Teddy G.

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2006, 02:19:57 PM »

Because I don't really have a clue...

When I need a new cable I look and listen for a few things:

1. The brand name. A good one I have heard of.

2. The connector maker(Switch craft, etc. Some very recognizable name.).

3. The cable itself(Belden is my preference).

4. The "look" of the build quality.

5. Does acceptable sound come through it(Or whatever I'm trying to get from one end to the other.). I just wouldn't know if it is "lossy" above 35khz or whatever... If it sounds OK, I use it.

6. The price(I won't spend more on a cable than the gear I connect it to - generally not even a fraction of the gear cost - certainly only a fraction of what some cables cost!).

Again, I don't know? So I just look/listen at/to the stuff as best I can. So far, so good - I guess(Though I have my suspicions above 35k, I'll try to live with it, best I can.)?

TG
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2006, 06:31:15 AM »

Teddy G. wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 19:19

Because I don't really have a clue...

When I need a new cable I look and listen for a few things:

1. The brand name. A good one I have heard of.

2. The connector maker(Switch craft, etc. Some very recognizable name.).

3. The cable itself(Belden is my preference).

4. The "look" of the build quality.

5. Does acceptable sound come through it(Or whatever I'm trying to get from one end to the other.). I just wouldn't know if it is "lossy" above 35khz or whatever... If it sounds OK, I use it.

6. The price(I won't spend more on a cable than the gear I connect it to - generally not even a fraction of the gear cost - certainly only a fraction of what some cables cost!).

Again, I don't know? So I just look/listen at/to the stuff as best I can. So far, so good - I guess(Though I have my suspicions above 35k, I'll try to live with it, best I can.)?

TG


This is pretty much the approach I've used in the past, with success.

However recently in a discussion when I pointed out how much bullshit there was in the audiophile market a colleague asked "so what do I need to look for?" and I realized I didn't actually know! It's one thing when you're choosing for yourself, because if you get it wrong that's your problem, but recommending to someone else is a different matter.

That'S why I'd like to see a simple guide to what to look for and what doesn't matter. Something based on sound science, but which is easy to understand and use.

I second the hope that Dan with put something on the Lavry Engineering site
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Teddy G.

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2006, 09:16:32 PM »

I would recommend looking at the different manufacturers web sites. YES they're trying to sell you something, but one can only hope that they really should know what they're selling?(Not always true, I know.) .If they seem to be spouting incredible, unbelievable gobbledygook, go to another site(IF it's too good to be true..?). If they seem to know what they're talking about and can explain it in terms you seem to understand, give 'em a shot with your bucks -- cable or whatever - buy "1"... I remember putting 500 bucks into a sound card - "up" from a 30 dollar card - and I'm just so darned happy that I did AND I'm going to put a thousand dollar bill on their "better" one very soon! I'd put 200 dollars into a mic cable, too(I only need "1"!), if the seller(Or anyone else) could convince me that it was worth it. So far, no one has...... Some of this stuff seems to sell on "faith", something of which I have very little. Prove it to me, somehow... convince me. Until then..?

TG
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danlavry

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2006, 03:16:56 PM »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 11:31

Teddy G. wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 19:19

Because I don't really have a clue...

When I need a new cable I look and listen for a few things:

1. The brand name. A good one I have heard of.

2. The connector maker(Switch craft, etc. Some very recognizable name.).

3. The cable itself(Belden is my preference).

4. The "look" of the build quality.

5. Does acceptable sound come through it(Or whatever I'm trying to get from one end to the other.). I just wouldn't know if it is "lossy" above 35khz or whatever... If it sounds OK, I use it.

6. The price(I won't spend more on a cable than the gear I connect it to - generally not even a fraction of the gear cost - certainly only a fraction of what some cables cost!).

Again, I don't know? So I just look/listen at/to the stuff as best I can. So far, so good - I guess(Though I have my suspicions above 35k, I'll try to live with it, best I can.)?

TG


This is pretty much the approach I've used in the past, with success.

However recently in a discussion when I pointed out how much bullshit there was in the audiophile market a colleague asked "so what do I need to look for?" and I realized I didn't actually know! It's one thing when you're choosing for yourself, because if you get it wrong that's your problem, but recommending to someone else is a different matter.

That'S why I'd like to see a simple guide to what to look for and what doesn't matter. Something based on sound science, but which is easy to understand and use.

I second the hope that Dan with put something on the Lavry Engineering site




I am pretty busy these days, but I will try to make some time for the cable issue in the near future.

Regards
Dan Lavry
http:/www.lavryengineering.com


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danickstr

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2006, 09:38:44 PM »

Just from a purely pragmatic point of view, I can honestly say the only noticeable difference I have heard in cabling is attenuation.  The other stuff is negligable when compared to your position in the room, the dac on the CD player, who is in the room and where they are standing, etc.  If you ahve a crappy 50 ft. 16 ga. hosa cable and you switch it out with a 50 mogami 12 g., you will probably see a bit more signal coming through.  That's what common sense tells me about cables.  Take apart any piece of gear and look at the crappy cabling running from the connectors to the transformers (and the winding wire!) and pc board inputs.  that should make you think about cables.  unless you plan to replace and "burn-in" those as well.

one disclaimer; if you listen to the same mix 500 times in a row (working) and someone changes a cable, you may notice it.  but two weeks later you probably won't.
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danlavry

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2006, 03:33:51 PM »

danickstr wrote on Tue, 01 August 2006 02:38

Just from a purely pragmatic point of view, I can honestly say the only noticeable difference I have heard in cabling is attenuation.  The other stuff is negligable when compared to your position in the room, the dac on the CD player, who is in the room and where they are standing, etc.  If you ahve a crappy 50 ft. 16 ga. hosa cable and you switch it out with a 50 mogami 12 g., you will probably see a bit more signal coming through.  That's what common sense tells me about cables.  Take apart any piece of gear and look at the crappy cabling running from the connectors to the transformers (and the winding wire!) and pc board inputs.  that should make you think about cables.  unless you plan to replace and "burn-in" those as well.

one disclaimer; if you listen to the same mix 500 times in a row (working) and someone changes a cable, you may notice it.  but two weeks later you probably won't.


You need to worry about attenuation when the load is a speaker such as 8 Ohm load. You need not to worry about attenuation for loads such as 10 KOhm, or 600 Ohms. A 100 foot 16 AWG 2 wire has less then 1 Ohm for any copper even at very high room temperature. That 1 Ohm is a factor when driving say an 8 Ohm speaker. It is not a factor for line level loads (say 600 Ohm or 10KOhm...).

Whatever you heard is not due to attenuation...

Regards
Dan Lavry
http://www.lavryengineering.com

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Sin x/x

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2006, 11:13:07 AM »

danlavry wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 17:50




Hello Jon,

On this forum about a year ago I did have a cable and clock thread that took a lot of my time. I had graphs, lots of technical information and straight forward talk. Reader interest was extremely high, there were lots of posts some extremely clever and creative. These were the 2 most popular threads here since the forum began.

My truths, however, were taken as personal insults by a well-known converter company who sells cables. "Out of the blue", the threads were gone. Politics and censorship won out over truth. I was not asked or notified ahead of time. Many here thought that  I had removed the clock thread and the cable thread. I did not. I was as surprised as everyone to see them gone.

I was later told that it was "becoming a war between 2 manufactures". It was not. I was talking about the technical aspects, and at times pointing out various "marketing sleaze" aimed at confusing the customer. I did use a word that was objectionable to the people running ProSound Web that word was "Bull Shit" At the time there was a wonderful book published by Harry G. Frankfurt is Professor of Philosophy Emeritus at Princeton University, called "Bull Shit" http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/titles/7929.html

If any of you have read it you will know that what he said was relevant to the discussion we were having on that thread. Jon Stewart had Harry on "The Daily Show".

I almost left ProSound Web but instead decided to start my company forum http://www.lavryengineering.com where I now post information that may be objectionable to the people who run this forum.

Dan Lavry
Lavry Engineering, Inc.
http://www.lavryengineering.com



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danickstr

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2006, 09:13:10 PM »

sorry dan you are right I forgot to mention that I was in that one case referring to speaker load.  but other areas would have even less effect with that change I think.
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crm0922

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2006, 09:12:51 AM »

I can't believe they actually deleted those threads.  I thought they were just locked and went away for that reason.

It was nice of the censors at PSW to decide that us readers are to stupid to draw our own conclusions about what is or is not appropriate industry discussion.

They did protect an advertiser though.  I'm not sure if they are a PSW advertiser, actually, but I wouldn't be surprised.

I'd like to read those threads again.  What a load of Bull Shit.

Chris
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Ronny

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2006, 10:11:47 AM »



Seems like a clear case of not biting the hand that feeds you. Censor what offends your paycheck providers, at the expense of relating truthful knowledge.

The biggest problem with most of the false advertisments, is that they are based on subjective opinion. If Joe Manufacturer uses the term "sounds better", there is no action for quantification. It's an opinion, not based on science, but no way to prove in a court of law that something doesn't "sound better" to one individual. Power of suggestion plays a key role in cable sales. People want to think that the extra dough that they are shelling out is worth it. However, they only need to do their own testing, to find out that most of the cable differences reported with subjective terminology, is hype for sales dollars. It appalls me that it's so rampant in the audio industry, millions of dollars wasted every year trying to improve sound systems with more expensive cables, when the reality of it is, once a cable meets the requirement, the rest is overkill.
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bblackwood

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2006, 08:18:21 PM »

crm0922 wrote on Sat, 19 August 2006 08:12

I can't believe they actually deleted those threads.  I thought they were just locked and went away for that reason.

It was nice of the censors at PSW to decide that us readers are to stupid to draw our own conclusions about what is or is not appropriate industry discussion.

They did protect an advertiser though.  I'm not sure if they are a PSW advertiser, actually, but I wouldn't be surprised.

I'd like to read those threads again.  What a load of Bull Shit.

No problem, read them here and here. I had forgotten about this or would have put it back long ago.

Please note the fact that the company in question was not an advertiser at PSW. And fwiw, it would be nice if you guys actually knew what happened before casting aspersions.
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Brad Blackwood
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chrissugar

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2006, 05:42:27 AM »

Thank you Brad, it is nice to see this thread back. Smile
Now if we could have back the 96k versus 192K thread, it would be great.

chrissugar
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bblackwood

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2006, 07:49:08 AM »

chrissugar wrote on Mon, 21 August 2006 04:42

Now if we could have back the 96k versus 192K thread, it would be great.

Sorry, I don't know anything about that thread.
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Brad Blackwood
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danickstr

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2006, 10:22:35 PM »

Brad is working here, not answering to the angry masses.
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Nick Dellos - MCPE  

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bblackwood

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2006, 07:18:58 PM »

Now, let's get this back on topic!
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Brad Blackwood
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crm0922

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2006, 04:30:56 AM »

bblackwood wrote on Sun, 20 August 2006 20:18

crm0922 wrote on Sat, 19 August 2006 08:12

I can't believe they actually deleted those threads.  I thought they were just locked and went away for that reason.

It was nice of the censors at PSW to decide that us readers are to stupid to draw our own conclusions about what is or is not appropriate industry discussion.

They did protect an advertiser though.  I'm not sure if they are a PSW advertiser, actually, but I wouldn't be surprised.

I'd like to read those threads again.  What a load of Bull Shit.

No problem, read them here and here. I had forgotten about this or would have put it back long ago.

Please note the fact that the company in question was not an advertiser at PSW. And fwiw, it would be nice if you guys actually knew what happened before casting aspersions.


Brad, I said I didn't know whether they were an advertiser or not. Still, they are a potential advertiser and have dealers that advertise here.  Dan said the threads were "gone".  I was not just making things up...the forum mod said they were gone, so I believed him.

Anyways, the more important thread was the clocking/Big Ben one.  I haven't looked for it but, now I do recall it being deleted to many some forum members' dismay.

Chris
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danlavry

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2006, 03:00:08 PM »

crm0922 wrote on Fri, 25 August 2006 09:30

bblackwood wrote on Sun, 20 August 2006 20:18

crm0922 wrote on Sat, 19 August 2006 08:12

I can't believe they actually deleted those threads.  I thought they were just locked and went away for that reason.

It was nice of the censors at PSW to decide that us readers are to stupid to draw our own conclusions about what is or is not appropriate industry discussion.

They did protect an advertiser though.  I'm not sure if they are a PSW advertiser, actually, but I wouldn't be surprised.

I'd like to read those threads again.  What a load of Bull Shit.

No problem, read them here and here. I had forgotten about this or would have put it back long ago.

Please note the fact that the company in question was not an advertiser at PSW. And fwiw, it would be nice if you guys actually knew what happened before casting aspersions.


Brad, I said I didn't know whether they were an advertiser or not. Still, they are a potential advertiser and have dealers that advertise here.  Dan said the threads were "gone".  I was not just making things up...the forum mod said they were gone, so I believed him.

Anyways, the more important thread was the clocking/Big Ben one.  I haven't looked for it but, now I do recall it being deleted to many some forum members' dismay.

Chris



Hi Chris,

Brad Blackwood put the 2 threads back a few days ago.The following day Fletcher made the decision to move the thread  "Proper Word Clock Implementation" with no prior explanation and no discussion. I did not move it. Instead of "moved by moderator it should have said "moved by Fletcher, a PSW general site administrator"

Do you think the move is appropriate?

Regards
Dan Lavry

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crm0922

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Re: About Cables
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2006, 10:42:19 AM »

danlavry wrote on Fri, 25 August 2006 15:00


Hi Chris,

Brad Blackwood put the 2 threads back a few days ago.The following day Fletcher made the decision to move the thread  "Proper Word Clock Implementation" with no prior explanation and no discussion. I did not move it. Instead of "moved by moderator it should have said "moved by Fletcher, a PSW general site administrator"

Do you think the move is appropriate?

Regards
Dan Lavry



No, I don't think it was appropriate.  I don't like the idea of a thread being moved or removed unless it has really become childish namecalling or something of that nature.  And then it should just be locked.

The word clock thread was a lively debate.  Some of the participants were Apogee employees stirring the pot, but I think it was still left to the reader to decide what was BS, what was manufacturer bickering, and what was useful information.

Now that the thread is gone, we aren't allowed to make that determination.

I also don't think that the thread itself promoted Lavry gear over Apogee specifically.  It questioned claims made that an external word clock implementation magically improves audio performance.  

Your (Dan) beliefs on this topic drive the design of your own equipment, but these beliefs are also obviously going to be implicit and explicit in your forum comments.  I do not find this inappropriate and should be expected when asking the founder of an audio gear company to moderate a forum carrying his name.

Chris
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