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Author Topic: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here  (Read 16949 times)

UnderTow

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Re: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2006, 07:58:33 AM »

NoWo wrote on Fri, 07 July 2006 23:42

I was just joking Pingu.
Sorry that your submission came too late for me, the same for others.

Norbert



A few people didn't review my version. It was uploaded on thursday evening which was within the dead-line limit AFAIK.

Could the people that didn't review my version have a listen? All feedback is usefull!

Thanks,

Alistair
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HansP

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Re: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2006, 08:12:12 AM »

big thanks to matt for everything!!
many thanks for EVERY comment!

greetz to norbert, for pointing out the hollowness in lower midrange on my file. you are on a different road, but you can always improve technically and maybe we share a few perceptions.
(in my ear your track does not sound quite as loud as the RMS is telling. perhaps it counts the bass too much.)


the mix is a challenge. almost everything is midrange, the high end is muffled and becomes ill when boosted too much, and there is also some hollowness that strikes when I try to even out the spectrum. the upper midrange gives me a headache.
not bad, but difficult from the less than optimal monitoring conditions, as matt stated. it also expects a certain kind of smashing so the drums sit right.


I think no one worked with the sibilance problems in the vocal bridge at 3:50. there must have been a deesser with broadband function, as during th "s" (4 times) the sound breaks down.
I edited and messed around with this but still not happy. anyway the "s" is now as strong as the "t" and "sh" and the music keeps constant.

when I listen to this music it reminds me of U2, esp. some guitar parts. also some INXS. so I aimed at that, and shaped the sound after some overprocessed commercial mainstream rock and pop with a very full spectrum.
to me the challenge to be creative was more important than what matt was after, he got it from the others anyway.
this WUMP was very instructive to me. I am satisfied, and for myself I will try a revised version that uses all advice. If someone is interested, I can post it.

I took lots of time to experiment and learn, and there is vast processing and editing. so I am happy that it came out in a whole piece and has a vision, and turning down the smiley and filling a minor midrange gap should do it for my taste.
please give me some time for the processing description.

for the results on the submissions I agree with the majority, except that still most of that stuff sounds somewhat muffled to me, and I personally don't like this purist rock style at all, where everything is midrange and slap at the forehead. I have had rehearsal room sound for years... (but I like the song and the performance is fine.)

I present my results in a table. I hope it uploads correctly and everyone can read it.
please everything is meant with full respect and it is only me, who does not do music for a living. the previous WUMP came out totally different from the same engineers, e.g. ATOR was my favorite. next time roles and ranks will change again.

so here we are.
(continued, I had to cut it in two  pictures.
note: noise "+" means good noise figure, "-" means hissing not addressed.)

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/fa/3112/8956/
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HansP

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Re: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2006, 08:14:52 AM »

picture two of the submission comments

addendum for UnderTow:
I wrote many remarks but every single one is meant very small and the overall impression is quite good. the snare is only a bit thinner compared to some other submissions, and only in some sections.
high end is there, but thin in the meaning that spectral focus is shifted to higher frequencies and the "lower" highs are weaker.
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/fa/3113/8956/
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NoWo

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Re: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2006, 08:37:18 AM »

HansP wrote on Sat, 08 July 2006 13:12

thanks to matt for everything!!

greetz to norbert, for pointing out the hollowness in lower midrange on my file. you are on a different road, but you can always improve technically and maybe we share a few perceptions.
(in my ear your track does not sound quite as loud as the RMS is telling. perhaps it counts the bass too much.)



Hi Hans,

you are absolutely right about the perceived SPL. Compared to the other world class tracks I already named I was not quite up to par, and this comes, as you and others say, from a boosted low end which I like a lot. Maybe this was not intended by the mixing guy or the band, but I like it that way. Just like you I am a big hater when it comes to these vari-mued mid range hyped rock masters (what a disappointment the Velvet Revolver CD was to me I can not say).

BTW I like this makro-pumping that you all critize. I think it brings back a little bit of a live playing band. Do you disagree?

Norbert
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HansP

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Re: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2006, 08:59:16 AM »

norbert,
the band thing depends on the PA. with auto-limiting it may pump, but to me this is bad behaviour of the sound man. old PAs just clipped and shouted along.
lenny kravitz had a good idea with his trashy sound, but then it became notorious to everyone...
though good sound: linkin park, incubus, sepultura, this blacklinerock from gearslutz...
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ATOR

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Re: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2006, 10:35:54 AM »

There were a lot of different approaches this time. The track needed extreme eqing so it was hard to tell where the mix wanted to go. I couldn't get this mix where I wanted it to go, not even when, after I submitted my master, I tried copying other masters I liked. What amazed me most was how some of you had gotten the drums punchy and fat.

Maybe it's a plugin thing but I can't make a 'pif' snare go 'BAF'. I can make it go 'pef' or 'pof', if I work really hard I can make it go 'PIF' but never 'BAF', it's frustrating Confused



Sunny
Very nice, good balance between making it bright and keeping the body, nice punch, great details very natural. My favorite.

Hans
I had no idea this sound was hidden in this mix. Good EQ, maybe a tad bright, you did a good job at getting it massive.

Patrick T
a lot of sub-low, veiled

Ged Leitch
light on bass and lowmids  and seems to lack punch because of that

Aivory
Nice punch, good dynamics, little too much 1000Hz

Luke F
Nice but too dark, lowmids could use some cleanup

Chris J
Could use more highs (5k) to bing out vox and gits more, dynamics are good

Matt G
Sounds good, more punch would be nice, the sides overwelm the mid

Mike Bruce
Good master, could use more punch

Undertow
Like the EQ but it’s very flat dynamicly, it sounds distant, sides too loud

Eric Jenson
Harsh and grainy, flat

Trilliumsound
The mix is very small, the compression is too much and pumps like crazy

Cerberus
Very dark, dynamics seem to be good

NoWo
It’s loud, it’s mush. I like the part where the drummer hits the floortom and the rest of the band disappears.
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cerberus

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Re: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2006, 05:16:32 PM »

ATOR wrote on Sat, 08 July 2006 10:35


Maybe it's a plugin thing but I can't make a 'pif' snare go 'BAF'. I can make it go 'pef' or 'pof', if I work really hard I can make it go 'PIF' but never 'BAF', it's frustrating Confused
most people would not take my advice because it means working even harder.  even a limiter as fine as uad precision will round off the peaks. nothing is wrong with your plugins. but you use wideband trans-x when multiband trans-x offers 4x the control(what you seek?)... but 4x as much work for the engineer.

using another "transient designer" after the limiter would make your chain more complex and suddenly you would be needing to adjust the final output level veeeerrry carefully...(this could take a whole three minutes, a huge proportion of the amount of total time that "a-listers" supposedly take to do anything).

also some of your "precious rms" will be sacrificed for "punch" and that all could drive you nuts if you sit mastering with a stopwatch and an fft analyser, because time -is- money; i don't argue that, but i think also: quality could equal money. i think there's still a measurable demand for quality.

i also think the soundscan numbers are corrupted by the general payola climate where all kinds of abuses are tolerated... they may be less real than questionable election results where at least we still have exit polls that historically have never lied to us.

i actually think people are turning it off and choosing to play a videogame or rent a dvd or go online instead. who is spending their leisure time listening to entire modern rock albums at a sitting? consumers don't even clean their weed with us anymore.

i'm frustsrated at the moment over marketing issues that are raised in this wump; not so much technical ones. got any tips for me?

jeff dinces

NoWo

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Re: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2006, 05:53:43 PM »

Aivoryuk worte:
------------------
Norberts ones are like nothing i've heard on earth.
------------------

Yes, that is right, I am coming from outer space, I was a magician on planet Disto.
But although I have retired I still can do wonders.
Ator found one of them.

Ator worte:
------------------
I like the part where the drummer hits the floortom and the rest of the band disappears.
------------------

Yeah, with just a snip of my finger I can make a complete band disappear.
And next time I show you what a superlow bass sound can do with your speaker enclosures.
Maybe they will disappear too, so stay tuned.

Norbert
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mbruce333

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Re: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2006, 06:03:43 PM »






Here are my thoughts.  First off, I apologize for those that I did not get too.  Time has just plain old run out as I’m preparing to leave on a 2-week business trip.  I hap hoped to listen to the rest today, but it’s just not going to happen. So here is what I have at the moment. My sincerest apologies!

I listen to these entries, level matched, and compared them to both the original mix and a couple of tunes by Green Day and Switchfoot.  I found it necessary to reference a commercial standard frequently to keep my ears from getting skewed!  If I just tried to listen from one entry to the next, the really warm ones sounded normal, and the brighter ones sounded too bright and harsh.  It really is amazing how fast your frame of reference can get thrown off!!  So, lots of referencing while listening to these.

TrilliumSound:  Very well done.  Nice job cleaning out the lower mid-range mud and getting some life in the high end.  For me, you might have taken it a little bit farther than this mix wants to go…which rally shows up in the snare.  I know in the mix it’s really boxy, but now it has a little too much of that “bottom mic” sound.  The top end in everything else, however, sounds good this bright.  Overall, one of the more aggressively bright entries, and I like it that way!


ChrisJ:  Very warm, a little to warm for my taste.  It seems like you added some very nice air up top, but the lower mid-range is still quite muddy (which came from the original mix), which makes it sound kind of lifeless.  No fade in or out?


Ged:  Nice compromise of carving out the lower mid mud, while not screwing up the snare sound.  Smooth top-end.  No fade in or out.  I know that’s a small detail, but shouldn’t that be part of what we present?  All in all a nice job mate!


ATOR:  Nice job getting rid of the mud getting some top end into things.  Maybe a touch to much 2.5K?  It seems like most of the tune needs it, but the snare sound suffers….ugh, those blasted compromises!  Did you add a little verb or something similar?  I like it, whatever you did, helps the tune open up a bit.

LukeF:  Nice and smooth, definitely headed in the right direction for my taste, maybe should have taken it farther as it’s still a little on the warm side.  Snare is still a little boxy sounding, although much better in that regard than the original mix.  No fade in or out.

NoWo: We got a Hot one here!!  Great job cleaning out the mud, but the really low end might be a bit much.  In my room, the low end is pretty fun, but I’d be worried about translation to systems with too much low end…can you say car audio anyone? J  It’s bright and edgy, but in a way that I think the tune needed.  It’s amazing how different the snare sound is from each version.  No fade in or out.

Eric Jensen:  Very well done!  Nice and smooth.  One of the best sounding snare drums yet, which indicates very careful EQ choices.  Very punchy.  I like this one very much.  Thank you for doing a quick fade in, but I think 14 sec might be a bit long for the fade out.

Hans:  Nice job.  Similar to LukeF’s entry in that I liked how you were carving out some mud and trying to put some life in the top end, but I think you could have gone farther.  I didn’t really did the additional stuff on the back-beats in the chorus, maybe less?  I did like the backwards thing coming out of the breakdown, but of course, it would be more up to the client than me!  No fade in or out.  

MattG:  One of my favorites!  Loud, punchy, perhaps a touch too warm for my taste, but well done nonetheless.  I could use a tiny bit more air in the very top end, not enough to make the hats stand out though.  Nicely done.

Mike Bruce:  Overall I’m pretty happy with it.  I tried to get a little more ‘bite’ into the mix than some, but had a tough time finding the right combinations in my EQ decisions.
If I were to do it again, I would have processed the verses separately form the chorus.  I was too focused on finding a “one setting for the whole tune,” though.

Monitoring was done in my studio with B&W 803S’s, Rotel power, Grace 904 controller and monitoring D/A.

Sorry again for those that I did not get too.

By for now…
Mike Bruce
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Mike Bruce
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ATOR

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Re: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2006, 06:10:54 PM »

cerberus wrote on Sat, 08 July 2006 23:16

ATOR wrote on Sat, 08 July 2006 10:35


Maybe it's a plugin thing but I can't make a 'pif' snare go 'BAF'. I can make it go 'pef' or 'pof', if I work really hard I can make it go 'PIF' but never 'BAF', it's frustrating Confused
most people would not take my advice because it means working even harder.  even a limiter as fine as uad precision will round off the peaks. also you use wideband trans-x but multiband trans-x offers 4x the control(what you seek?), but 4x as much work for the engineer.

using another "transient designer" after the limiter would make your chain more complex and suddenly you would be needing to adjust the final output level veeeerrry carefully...(this could take a whole three minutes, a huge proportion of the amount of total time that "a-listers" supposedly take to do anything).

also some of your "precious rms" will be sacrificed for "punch" and that all could drive you nuts if you sit mastering with a stopwatch and an fft analyser, because time -is- money; i don't argue that, but i think also: quality could equal money. i think there's still a measurable demand for quality.

i also think the soundscan numbers are corrupted by the general payola climate where all kinds of abuses are tolerated... they may be less real than  questionable election results where at least we still have exit polls that historically have never lied to us.

i actually think people are turning it off and choosing to play a videogame or rent a dvd or go online instead. who is spending their leisure time listening to entire modern rock albums at a sitting?  consumers don't even clean their weed with us anymore.

i'm frustsrated at the moment over marketing issues that are raised in this wump; not so much technical ones. got any tips for me?


jeff dinces



Hi Jeff,

I experied whith the transX wide and multi versions before and/or after compression but that didn't give me the sound I was after, since it only works on the transients. I am looking for more oomph and presence.

I used the UAD lim and adjusted the release especially to round of the mix and tame the cymbals a little extra.

I'll just wait untill the used techniques of my favorites are online and see if that will help me.


No tips on your marketing issues here, sorry.
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NoWo

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Re: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2006, 06:11:05 PM »

Hi Mike,

the bass of my track is doing good on every speaker I tested inside and outside of the studio, listening to it in the car was really great.
I like this broadband sound from deepest bass to highest treble.

Norbert
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cerberus

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Re: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2006, 12:01:12 AM »

index.php/fa/3115/0/

cerberus

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Re: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2006, 12:03:18 AM »

index.php/fa/3118/0/

cerberus

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Re: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2006, 12:04:38 AM »

index.php/fa/3117/0/

cerberus

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Re: WUMPV is Closed - Post Discussion & Comments Here
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2006, 12:41:35 AM »

spectral average images for each master, such as this one for the source mix: index.php/fa/3119/0/
...are available here:

         http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&uf id=7BD1E3BA49CA5BA5

jeff dinces
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