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Author Topic: Refused master?  (Read 20051 times)

jtr

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Re: Refused master?
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2006, 09:15:19 PM »

I hope all this works out for you. At least now you've got a list of ME's who should be good candidates for your next project! Smile
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Martin Kantola

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Re: Refused master?
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2006, 09:30:43 PM »

INDEED I DO, you guys are just a wonderful bunch!!!! So glad I asked about this here, really enjoyed chatting with you!

Very Happy

Thanks,

Martin
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Pingu

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Re: Refused master?
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2006, 06:23:04 AM »

jtr wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 09:15

I hope all this works out for you. At least now you've got a list of ME's who should be good candidates for your next project! Smile



Dont know about that.

The -0.1 db down thing.
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Andy Krehm

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Re: Refused master?
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2006, 11:35:56 AM »

Firstly, a mastering engineer who is working on a compilation has to have the right to change volume levels of various tracks. Otherwise, how can you have an album that is listenable in one pass?

I'm getting the impression that Martin doesn't want his audio touched in any way which is likely unfair to the other tracks on the compilation.

What if Martin's track is louder than 60% of the submitted tracks? If the ME can't turn it down, then the album will not work. Surely he can't expect the slightly lower tracks to be re-compressed on top of being already mastered if not necessary.

Volume changes in a compilation album of good sounding masters are accomplished by turning down the loud ones, leaving the mid-level tracks alone and remastering, in a simple way as possible, the lower level tracks. If they sound good but are too low, sometimes just a little L2 or TC Brickwall will do the trick. It also happens that sometimes a low level track actually has some headroom in which case its volume is raised.

It is most unlikely that a compilation producer will agreeable to an album where the loudest tracks have been reduced to match the level of the lowest , especially with pop music and especially if it ends up being 5 or 6 dbs below the average album of its style.

I always follow the accepted technical method that dither should be applied to any volume changes, regardless whether it has been dithered before. Unlike Martin,  I have never heard anything close to dramatic difference when re-dithering a track. In fact, to be honest, I've never really done a careful A/B of a re-dithered track simply because prevailing wisdom is so strong that you must re-dither if doing fades or volume changes to 16b/44.1k files. However, if this is not correct, or there are some exceptions to the rule, I would appreciate hearing about it.

However, my main point still stands and that is, you can ask the ME for an as is transfer for use in a compilation but you can't expect an ME not to change the volume, in what ever way is necessary, if your track's volume is causing a problem in the comp.

As far as the other points raised, you can release a track with overs on a CD. This is no problem. Just check out the flattened waveforms on at least a third of the major label releases. Some them are as much as 35 samples long so the ME in this case is just plain wrong. He may not like sending tracks with overs but if he doesn't need to change the level of the track to match the others, he should leave it alone.

And, as I said above, I haven't heard any difference in the sound quality of re-dithered files but then I haven't paid much attention either, since I am under the impression that this is a technical requirement.

Andy,

Silverbirch Productions.

UnderTow

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Re: Refused master?
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2006, 11:43:52 AM »


Andy, you make valid points about compilations but the way I understand it, the issue here is 0.1 dB difference supposedly to avoid a particular meter showing overs. It is not about adjusting the volume of various tracks to sit together nicely in a compilation.

Alistair
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bblackwood

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Re: Refused master?
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2006, 11:44:39 AM »

I can't help it - every time I read the title of this thread I briefly think it's a thread about Refused...
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Andy Krehm

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Re: Refused master?
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2006, 12:13:07 PM »

UnderTow wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 11:43


Andy, you make valid points about compilations but the way I understand it, the issue here is 0.1 dB difference supposedly to avoid a particular meter showing overs. It is not about adjusting the volume of various tracks to sit together nicely in a compilation.

Alistair


I know I added more points than were asked for but, let's suppose that the ME's metering is correct, he was hired by the client to do the job and should be able to make a minor change, as outlined.

I personally would never take on a compilation mastering job where I was ordered to leave one track untouched, unless it didn't adversely affect the overall volume flow of the comp.

When Martin submits a track for a comp, he can ask for an "as is" transfer but cannot be guaranteed that it won't be changed in any way. His other option is to ask to be removed from the comp. This may seem harsh but compilations are almost always compromises for a mastering engineer. I say this from experience as I have been hired to master many, many compilations over the years.

As for the .1 db reduction, it is not necessary but if the ME is more comfortable submitting an album with .1 db of headroom, I really can't believe that the sound difference would be noticible with such a small change and the requisite dither. However, I didn't create the track, as Martin did, and so he has to have the last word on this, which may be to pull the track.

Andy,

Silverbirch Productions.

lagerfeldt

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Re: Refused master?
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2006, 12:46:05 PM »

Andy Krehm wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 17:35

Firstly, a mastering engineer who is working on a compilation has to have the right to change volume levels of various tracks. Otherwise, how can you have an album that is listenable in one pass?


Very true, of course.

However, it's also his right - nay, his obligation - to do this in the best way possible, and for the right reasons.

rnicklaus

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Re: Refused master?
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2006, 01:39:37 PM »

There is also the question of why the ME is calling one artist on a compilation asking if the level of the track can be dropped .01.

It was stated that this ME did a project for this artist before and dropped the level 2 db and it is claimed ruined the sound.  That seems a tad hard to believe with a properly executed level drop.

Maybe this ME is gun shy of the artist, but it seems the ME's responsibility is to the label, not one just track included.

All said it's hard to tell with just one side of any story.
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UnderTow

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Re: Refused master?
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2006, 01:59:57 PM »

Andy Krehm wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 17:13



I know I added more points than were asked for but, let's suppose that the ME's metering is correct, he was hired by the client to do the job and should be able to make a minor change, as outlined.

I personally would never take on a compilation mastering job where I was ordered to leave one track untouched, unless it didn't adversely affect the overall volume flow of the comp.

When Martin submits a track for a comp, he can ask for an "as is" transfer but cannot be guaranteed that it won't be changed in any way. His other option is to ask to be removed from the comp. This may seem harsh but compilations are almost always compromises for a mastering engineer. I say this from experience as I have been hired to master many, many compilations over the years.

As for the .1 db reduction, it is not necessary but if the ME is more comfortable submitting an album with .1 db of headroom, I really can't believe that the sound difference would be noticible with such a small change and the requisite dither. However, I didn't create the track, as Martin did, and so he has to have the last word on this, which may be to pull the track.

Andy,

Silverbirch Productions.


All valid points. This brings me to another question, how typical is it to deliver 16 bit files for such a compilation? Wouldn't it be best if all files were delivered in 24 bits? This would also make any gain changes even more transparent.

Alistair
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Refused master?
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2006, 02:09:52 PM »

UnderTow wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 12:59

This brings me to another question, how typical is it to deliver 16 bit files for such a compilation? Wouldn't it be best if all files were delivered in 24 bits? This would also make any gain changes even more transparent.


Yes in a perfect world...

Most of the time when we're doing compilations, the client drops off a box of replicated CDs, and yes there are lots of level changes to match... after all it's a compilation, a sampler of sorts.
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Dave Davis

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Re: Refused master?
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2006, 02:18:36 PM »

lagerfeldt wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 17:46

Andy Krehm wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 17:35

Firstly, a mastering engineer who is working on a compilation has to have the right to change volume levels of various tracks. Otherwise, how can you have an album that is listenable in one pass?


Very true, of course.

However, it's also his right - nay, his obligation - to do this in the best way possible, and for the right reasons.


Given your agreement with Andy, your caveat seems a bit odd - Nothing stated so far would indicate that the ME is shirking this obligation.  Indeed, from the sound of it, I would suggest it sounds more like the guy's bending over backwards to accomodate this particular artist!  I rarely have the budget or inclination for this sort of back-and-forth with a comp.  Typically the label secures permission to do what needs doing, and limits interaction with individual artists.  If I talked to every artist on every comp I've done, I'd still be on the phone, and broke, without clients, as labels dropped me like a lead balloon!  Who pays for the ME's time?  The revisions/conversations?  Forget the larger issues, like fairness to ALL bands on the compilation, this entire topic assumes an endless budget for the whole project, and a lack of vision/direction by the producers.

As to the .1 dB thing, I'll admit to having done this in the past, although I tend to go with .5, as that might actually provide some benefit (reducing intersample peaks, and new distortions generated by pushing cheap dacs).  In the case of major labels using their own plants, it's not unheard of at all: the plant will sometimes spot the FS samples and squeal to the exec in charge of the title in a way that might suggest the ME is a hack or a moron.  On a single bands title, the A&R in charge can (and often DO) sign off on a disc with 0 dBFS peaks or even clipping based on the artists or managements preferences, but that kind of leeway isn't typical on compilations.  It's just a cheap trick to make the "over" light go out, while keeping the meters reading as hot as possible.

Now, assuming the ME in question has decent gear (Sonic, Sadie, Sequioa, etc), I see no problem with the change.  If he's doing it in Jam or Nero, I wouldn't be surprised if there were an audible difference.  But any premastering engineer who cannot execute a gain change without audible degradation is unlikely to be "top talent".  Based on Martin's report about past results, and the fact that so many hands are allowed all over the project, there are some real questions about professionalism and project management.

Finally proportionality and perspective seems lacking.  How much does ANY comp really matter to any individual artist on it?  While there are some terrific ones out there, like the Nuggets series, most are little more than "samplers", shoving dozens of bands through a single lens.  As a result the song and performance matter much, much, much, much, much more than the sound quality or mastering on most compilation.  No individual artists work is fully optimized on comps, its a balancing of trade offs.  Expecting perfection on a compilation, regardless of how much blood, sweat and dollars you pour into your song's mix, is unrealistic.  The goal is to get the song out there, and not screw it up or make it worse.  In that context, I can't imagine a .1 dB change really being that big a deal.

-d-
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Pingu

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Re: Refused master?
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2006, 02:21:44 PM »


Quote:

Finally proportionality and perspective seems lacking.  How much does ANY comp really matter to any individual artist on it?  While there are some terrific ones out there, like the Nuggets series, most are little more than "samplers", shoving dozens of bands through a single lens.  As a result the song and performance matter much, much, much, much, much more than the sound quality or mastering on most compilation.  No individual artists work is fully optimized on comps, its a balancing of trade offs.  Expecting perfection on a compilation, regardless of how much blood, sweat and dollars you pour into your song's mix, is unrealistic.  The goal is to get the song out there, and not screw it up or make it worse.  In that context, I can't imagine a .1 dB change really being that big a deal.





Exactly.

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Martin Kantola

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Re: Refused master?
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2006, 04:49:31 PM »

OK,

once again very interesting input and views, but we need to sort out a couple of things...

First, I think I already mentioned that great care was taken from our part to deliver a master with a level that fitted the compilation perfectly. This worked out fine, no problem or extra work for the ME there. I agree that it's important to match the level of the tracks on a compilation, and it's understandable that every single track only gets a little part of the attention in such a case.

Second, it was agreed beforehand that we would participate on the compilation with the only reservation that we'd provide a master to be inserted with a 1:1 transfer.

We got into trouble only when the ME called me to say that he refuses to use our master 1:1, claiming that it had overs. I delivered another version (that was carefully checked for overs) but with the same result. So there seemed to be a difference in our meter readings, or what was it about?

My theory at this point is the following:

He has transferred all the tracks into his ProTools, running it at 24 bits since he'll do level changes. Since he'll do a 16-bit CD master there's dither involved. Now, the little dither might just be enough to push our level over the top.

What do you think?

Martin
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Martin Kantola

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Re: Refused master?
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2006, 04:59:09 PM »

Dave Davis wrote on Thu, 15 June 2006 19:18

In that context, I can't imagine a .1 dB change really being that big a deal.

-d-



Well, any level change and re-dithering to my 16-bit master is a big deal in this case. Hope you don't think for a second that 0.1 dB is any less than say 0.8 when it comes to sacrificing resolution. Remember why we are using more than 16-bits in the first place!

We've gone through so much trouble to try to do our best with the sound on this album. Working with Bruce Swedien was such a wonderful experience, his ears are just incredible! I really don't want some guy at the last stage spoiling any of what has been acheived, especially not if it's not necessary.

Martin  
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