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Author Topic: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP  (Read 6413 times)

King Whistle

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LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« on: April 22, 2006, 06:08:56 pm »

story:
  I'm buying gear, mainly pres + converters for my studio (small, but pro).
My pal lends me some API and Vintechs, so I can compare to my Demeter and -cough-Mackies-cough-.
 I try recording some tracks and LOVE the APIs and Vintechs. So, I decide to sample some toms and Kick while I have the pres to play with. I put my Neumann TLM 103 on each tom, then into the API and so on. I do a complete set of API samples, then Vintech samples, then Demeter samples, all using the 103.
GORGEOUS, huge and beautiful.

I decide for myself which pre suits my needs and then think, "I better try this with the mics I usually use on toms", so I hook up the 421s, thru the APIs.  
SHOCKER!

 I realize that no matter how I place my mic and tune my drum, I can't get near how great the LDC sounded. Worse than that, I realize that I can't accept the sound of the 421, now that I have heard a Neumann on a tom,,....*&^)()(*&&*!!!
 
   What do I do now ?  How do I get that sound without having drummers destroy my mics ??  
 The reason I'm posting here is because I know how much Mr. Albini likes his Josephson E22s mics.  Is this mic (being a condenser) a similar type of thing to my Neumann 103 ??  Did my budget just grow by 2 Josephson E22 mics ??

Suggestions  ?
Reality Checks ?
Sarcasm ?

best,
Thaddeus Corea
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wwittman

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2006, 08:34:51 pm »

I'm with you, nothing sounds better on toms than the right condenser.

I use Gefell UM70's or Neumann U87's almost all the time... and if you place them right, they're really difficult for the drummer to nail one.
not IMPOSSIBLE, but it takes some effort and gymnastics.


I also find it's a good idea to keep them up a bit from the drum, so that makes it even HARDER to hit by accident.

don't WORRY about it.

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King Whistle

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2006, 04:30:25 am »

thank you WW,
Is that similar or the same as a UMT 70S  ?
If so , it certainly looks like a great studio tool. That and the Josephson E22 are going on my test/compare list.
best,
Thaddeus Corea.
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wwittman

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2006, 02:13:15 pm »

I have much less experience wih the Josephsons but I do love the gefells... i use them al over the place.

The umT is the transformerless version.
It's not quite as good as the eralier ones with the transformers but still fine.

I recently helped consult on a studio design and equip, and we ended up getting them, I think, 2 UMT-70, 2 UM-900 and 8 MT-71 (the cardioid only version)

they're the mic I use on almost everything.
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William Wittman
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MI

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2006, 11:13:12 am »

Have to agree with the LDC choice on Toms.

I've got a few Neumann's, but I use my ADK A-51 TL's/SL's on
my toms and overheads never gone back to the SM-57's...

I don't mind as much if the A-51's get a whack, which has
yet to happen, even though I've worked with Metal drummers.

They sound great and they're reasonably priced.

Mario
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iCombs

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2006, 07:10:21 pm »

of course, of you are really apprehensive about your condensers getting smashed, you could go and get some Studio Projects C1's or B1's or something of that ilk...they get smashed and I doubt you'll cry about it.

I completely agree with condensers on toms, as well...but not so much for the sound of the tom as the sound of the leakage...it doesn't sound as ragged as the leakage I've gotten from dynamic mics and it actually seems to help the sound of the kit as a whole (and the snare in particular).
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crm0922

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2006, 04:20:31 am »

The problem with picking up a bunch of budget LDC's to use on toms is that they probably won't sound very good at the SPL's generated by a close-mic'd drum.

Those chinese mics are all designed to sound acceptable on the average vocal, but most often sound like a bowl of dicks on just about everything else.

I think the Audio Technica AT4050 sounds pretty good on toms, I often prefer it to the Josephson, but they are in the $450-$500 range and are still on the borderline of being able to take enough level.

However, they overdrive in a more acceptable way than the cheap mics I've heard, so it is less of a problem if one hit pushes the mic too far during a session.  The 4050's certainly can take a fair bit of abuse.

I'd say the TLM103 and e22s sound pretty much nothing alike.  Everyone has a hard-on for the e22s, and they are very nice mics, heck, I bought two of them, but there is a lot of other stuff out there you could get to serve your purpose.

Let's go back to the 4050, for example.  It sounds pretty terrific on electric bass, reasonably decent in a blumlein pair on drums or acoustic guitar.  It sounds pretty good as a room mic in a large-ish room.  It has switchable patterns...and it is built quite well.  A lot of mic for your money.  I'd say our 4050's get used at least as much as the e22s'.

Chris
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King Whistle

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2006, 04:42:45 am »

all of your personal experiences with LDCs on toms is super helpful !!

 I should listen closely for how the mic is handling the SPL.

 Mr. Whitman, Mario; How are you finding this factor of distortion ? problem, no problem ??

 I will put the AT4050 on the list to check out. I wish I could audition some E22s, but none of my pals own them.

 crm0922:  could you elaborate on them sounding nothing alike, especially related to your experience of using the E22 and 103???


thanks, Thaddeus Corea.
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Vertigo

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2006, 12:28:41 pm »

With the chinese LDC's it's not the capsule that's so much an issue as the electronics. There are a lot of DIY offerings that can actually turn these into quite usable microphones.

I've become a huge fan of LDC's on toms as well, particularly for floor toms. I've gotten pretty good results with the AT-3035, but I've encountered the same SPL issues described by Chris above.

I recently rebuilt a cheap chinese LDC with a tube circuit (check the Whatever Works forum - I posted about it yesterday), and this is now my absolute favorite mic on floor toms. High SPL's produce soft clipping on a tube mic, which I'm finding to be a wonderful compliment to the toms.

-Lance
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crm0922

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2006, 05:56:49 pm »

King Whistle wrote on Wed, 26 April 2006 04:42

all of your personal experiences with LDCs on toms is super helpful !!

 I should listen closely for how the mic is handling the SPL.

 Mr. Whitman, Mario; How are you finding this factor of distortion ? problem, no problem ??

 I will put the AT4050 on the list to check out. I wish I could audition some E22s, but none of my pals own them.

 crm0922:  could you elaborate on them sounding nothing alike, especially related to your experience of using the E22 and 103???


thanks, Thaddeus Corea.


The e22s is a different breed of mic, so it responds differently to placement and stuff like that.  It has a cleaner, softer high end and can take much higher levels.  The off-axis bleed into the e22s is better-sounding to my ear.  It also does not have the neumann honk in the midrange which I find mildly offensive...although that effect is interesting on some female vocals.

The e22s probably won't give as much stick-attack sound as a 103, but it has been a while since I even specifically used a 103 on toms.

The AT4050 is just a good workhorse mic, and the switchable patterns give it more usefulness as a pair and such.  It has what I call the "AT top", which is a bit sizzly, slightly strange top end, but it still seems to work pretty well on a lot of stuff.

You have to be careful with the 4050 on toms as its off-axis bleed has some of that sizzle, and that can be a problem.  Sometimes the fig-8 setting can be used to null out a cymbal or other HF-laden sound source.

Chris
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wwittman

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2006, 07:18:36 pm »

I have no trouble with handling the level with U87's or Gefell UM70's or 71's with the pads on.


the TLM103 is a piece of crap.

When I say "Neumann" i mean with a transformer.
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William Wittman
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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2006, 12:05:23 am »

King Whistle wrote on Wed, 26 April 2006 04:42

  Mr. Whitman, Mario; How are you finding this factor of distortion ? problem, no problem ??

thanks, Thaddeus Corea.


Hi Thaddeus,

I've never had a problem with the ADK A-51 TL's.
They get the job done, and I like the sound.

I find the ADK's sound better in the midrange compare to a
AKG 414 TLII, which sounds a little harsh, and better
definition than SM57 or a 421. My Neumann's are fine,
but I'd rather use the ADK's.

I would consider purchasing ADK Hamburg (ADK refer to them
as "German sound"...) matched pair, which have a pad built in
or ADK A-51 S (for high SPL) those also have a -10 pad.

Either would be usefull addition, at a reasonable price and
you'll get good tom sound. You can find A-51 S used pretty cheap
and try it out.

The ADK Hamburg are available from soundpure.com for abt 799/pr,
if I recall, but I think you can get them cheaper.

BTW - what kind of music is it intended for?

Mario

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King Whistle

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2006, 04:36:08 am »

thanks,
 recording mostly rock (indie, power pop, alt, silly as daisies, serious as nuts, etc.).

 I will also check out the AT 4047. I'm not a big fan of "sizzle", and the freq specs on this mic seem flatter at the top than the 4050 etc. Of course, I'll try them all.

WW; "TLM103 is a piece of crap", Wow,,, well, it very well may be compared to the mics at your disposal. For me, it is one of my best mics. However, I am looking for new mics (obviously), and your dislike of the 103 is certainly interesting, and when I try out the Gefells, I will hopefully hear something revealing.
 Is there an LDC you like better for $850 ish ? with transformer ? handling high SPL ?
do you have a similar dislike of the AT 4047 ? or ADK mics ?
 I hope you "get" that I am asking with much respect of your opinion, and not being sarcastic. (even so, any sarcasm offered is gladly accepted!)

CRM0922;  great description, very helpful indeed. thanks!
Mario;  cheers!

 all the experience on this thread are very helpful!
bes,
Thaddeus Corea.
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King Whistle

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2006, 05:02:26 am »

Mario,
why Hamburg and not Vienna ?

Thaddeus Corea.
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Jean Taxis

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2006, 06:24:33 am »

IMO, you can find a better mic than TLM 103, in a same price grade.
Mr Whitman, do you have any opinion about the Geffel M 930 ?
I quickly heard and found them interesting and very good for value mics...and they are pretty small !

Jean

MI

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2006, 10:59:03 am »

King Whistle wrote on Thu, 27 April 2006 05:02

Mario,
why Hamburg and not Vienna ?

Thaddeus Corea.


Hi Thaddeus,

I think you'd have to try them to be sure, but the ADK Vienna
is "inspired" by a AKG sound, and the Hamburg a "German"
sound...you can take that with a grain of salt. PM or e-mail
JP Gerard for more info on ADK's, or have look at Larry's
thread about the mics on the ADK web site:

http://www.adkmic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=113

Having said that, I found the Vienna has more top end,
Hamburg more mid range. If I had to choose, I go with Vienna
for OH's and Hamburg for Toms.

Mario


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wwittman

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2006, 05:36:36 pm »

I think you can still find used Gefell M-71's or MT-71s for about $800.

hard to beat them in that price range, or even at their $1100  full whack new price.

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William Wittman
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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2006, 07:06:16 pm »

wwittman wrote on Mon, 01 May 2006 17:36

I think you can still find used Gefell M-71's or MT-71s for about $800.

hard to beat them in that price range, or even at their $1100  full whack new price.




I think I'll definetly keep my eyes open for some used ones!

Thanks.

Mario

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Cerumen

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2006, 03:04:14 pm »

I use the Rode NTK for my toms.
About 3-5 inches off the tom.
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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2006, 03:57:14 pm »

We've bought a couple of those new cheap(and not so cheap) ribbons and had them modded for noise and tuned for crisper highs. I bought the EH/octavia clone a Nady and an AEA. They sound great on all deep drums. I run them through a SSL 504 mic module I got cheap on ebay ($250)- I think it's one of the only SSL modules that has an output transformer(Jensen). You can put the mic pretty far back and crank the gain.  Super - super - super rich tone. I've been doing this for a while but it does require patience and it doesn't make for the speediest tracking session.

When I just need to go quick I have alway used an AKG d1000e which is such a workhorse and I give it the edge over the sm57 even though it's basically the same mic I feel like toms sound "rounder" and more "clear". With toms I try to mentally envision "round" at least when I'm tracking - maybe that's all hocus pocus but I use that for mic placement. D1000E = Trustworthy tone - no suprises.
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TunaSafeDolphin

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2006, 06:17:11 am »

Surprised there aren't more 414 votes. I had some free time one days and did roughly 10 or so condensers on a floor tom, and I really dug the 414.

That aside, a couple of Studio Projects mics came pretty close, but distortion was certainly an issue. Maybe some padding may help?

-C
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J.J. Blair

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2006, 11:25:21 am »

Thad, sorry I didn't see this post earlier.  

One option is to get yourself a couple of Manley / Langevin CR2001s.  One of my favorite sounding tom mics.  They are bulky, but  you won't be able to damage them with your drum sticks.  They are tanks.  

Another REALLY amazing tom mic is the Gefell M300 small diaphragm condenser.  A really stellar tom mic.  Do a search in Fletcher's forum for my tom mic shootouts.  These things have so much note to them, and a nice attack.

BTW, like TSD said, 414s are actually an OK option.  You should be able to find C414-EB P48s (the first version of the black ones) on eBay for around $400 each.  I think, while not sounding as good as the silver EBs, they sound better than any subsequent black version.  

And if you are afraid of getting a condenser mic and hitting it with a drum stick, just tape a SM57 to the top.  That's the best use for those things: Deflecting the drumsticks off of a really good mic.  
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Red Tape

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2006, 12:04:09 pm »

J.J. Blair wrote on Fri, 19 May 2006 16:25

And if you are afraid of getting a condesner mic and hitting it with a drum stick, just tape a SM57 to the top.  That's the best use for those things: Deflecting the drumsticks off of a really good mic.


Hehe. Awesome.
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mattrussell

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2006, 04:35:51 pm »

J.J. Blair wrote on Fri, 19 May 2006 11:25



And if you are afraid of getting a condenser mic and hitting it with a drum stick, just tape a SM57 to the top.  That's the best use for those things: Deflecting the drumsticks off of a really good mic.  



that is one of the funniest things i've read on these posts.  

good idea, but i'm still a fan of the 57.  i'll find some old HH to destroy this way though.  i know we're talking about LDC's and such, but i really like beyer m88's on toms.  great rejection and wonderful sound.  on larg toms (16's and up), i think the key is to get an LDC under the drum as well.  i like 414's for this.

no, the m88's won't sound anything like the other mics mentioned here, but i can't help but tell you to check them out if you haven't heard them.  my problem with most LDC on toms (in some form of rock being played loudly) is bleed from the cymbals.  maybe i just haven't spent enough time trying them, but i often don't have a ton of time and the beyers have always worked very well for me.  421's have been so-so.  not the biggest fan of them, but i've used them a few times.  again, not my favorite but they have worked for me at times.



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el duderino

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2006, 10:07:52 am »

last week i used a U87 on floor tom for the first time and I love it. Before i was usually using a 421 or RE20, the RE20 definitely can work but its so freakin big it can be a pain depending where the ride is. anyway, the U87 was fantastic on top. I also used a 414 on the bottom and together they were huge. my best floor tom sound to date id say. Could definitely be unnecesarily big in situations but this was a rock band and the drummer only had a bass drum, snare and floor tom so huge was good.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: LDC on toms, I'm spoiled-HELP
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2006, 06:14:09 pm »

I'm still terribly fond of my AKG D19s.  Combined with my OHs in isoceles triangle mode, they always sound punchy and huge.  I've even got Ross buying them now!  LOL.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
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