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Author Topic: a pointless thread about subjective experiences  (Read 10012 times)

Oh! My Sea Captain!

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Re: "I know R. Kelley ..."
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2006, 05:02:14 pm »

I agree with the pork rind guy. I f-ing LOVE rappers! They come into my place, exclusively with beats they've already worked on, bring just the right kind of chemicals, only need a mic or two (maybe hook up a sampler, turntables), bang out their vocals, and then pay me! I don't have to deal with drum tunning, loud guitar amps, lifting heavy gear, etc. Before I take anyone on as a client, I meet them and discuss the session, and that's when you're supposed to weed out the creeps/weirdos. Works like a charm!
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The Octopus

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Re: "I know R. Kelley ..."
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2006, 06:17:44 pm »

Fenris Wulf. wrote on Mon, 01 May 2006 18:36

 Too many hip-hop artists are REAL criminals who commit REAL crimes and brag about it in their music. There's a line between artistic expression and REAL violence.



You must not record punk rock either. Or Frat bands. Or hardcore bands. or Scandanavian death metal bands. or..........

Daniel Farris

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Re: "I know R. Kelley ..."
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2006, 08:25:23 pm »

Fenris Wulf. wrote on Mon, 01 May 2006 23:36

So I'm a racist and I ought to be sued. Thanks.


If you'd like to point to where I said that, go right ahead.

I asked if such a policy is legal and pointed to an example that I thought was distantly comparable.

(By the way, nice of you to "correct the record" by re-writing your entire post after letting the original one sit for a few days.)

Quote:

I don't do Christian Rock either, the music creeps me out and the labels are infamous for screwing you on payment. Are they gonna sue me too? Followed by the White Power bands and the National Association of People Who Don't Shower?

Jeez! You should run a golf club.
Quote:

The right of free association includes the right to not associate with people, unfortunately this has been forgotten in the rush to criminalize behavior that doesn't fit your utopian ideas of social justice.


Again, think of it like a restaurant. To what extent is a restaurant able to legally refuse to serve certain *groups* of people (not individuals, but groups)?

[Don't even get me started on the widespread use of selective implementation of dress codes (i.e. no baggy pants, etc.) to quasi-legally skirt racial discrimination laws.]

You're right the Supreme Court has ruled that the first ammendment implies a freedom of association but, according to 1976's Runyon v McCrary, which weighs the Civil Rights Act against the First Ammendment, businesses are not allowed to consider race.

I'm sure you'll be the first to tell us that your exclusion is not based on race. So I'll ask you again the pointed question you elected not to answer the first time I asked it:

What do your other black clients (who don't do rap, hip hop, or R&B) think of your policy?

I ask, because if you ever ARE sued, you had sure as fuck better be able to point to some.


Quote:

Too many hip-hop artists are REAL criminals who commit REAL crimes and brag about it in their music. There's a line between artistic expression and REAL violence.


How many is too many? And what evidence can you offer to show that the majority of those who rap about such things REALLY do them?

The problem here is that you'd prefer not to work with gangstas (fair enough) and can't think of a better way of keeping them out, so you resort to excluding ALL genres of primarily black music, now that blues and jazz belong to white people.

Perhaps you aren't a racist. Maybe you're just a poor judge of character.

[EDIT: I'd like to add that the vast majority of racists I have ever met truly did not think they were racists. That's the new racism.]

Quote:

If you record hip-hop, you are inviting criminals into your studio and putting yourself at risk to get robbed or attacked.


This is the most ridiculous (and unsupportable) xenophobic stereotype I've heard in recent memory (and I've heard some good ones.)

That is a PERCEIVED threat. If it were a REAL threat, those of us on this board who have been successfully working with rap and hip hop artists for years without any trouble AT ALL might PERCEIVE it as well.

Crime is an individual thing, not relegated exclusively to one race or group. You might consider doing some soul searching and ask yourself if you unconsciously think of crime differently when it is committed by white people... which it is, and often. And you can't use their music, whether they are white or black, as a barometer for whether or not they're going to commit a crime against you.

Would you care to guess what group of people are, statistically, most likely to commit a crime? Hint: It isn't black people, nor is it rappers.

Give up? It's POOR people.

Again, maybe you should run a country club.

Truth is, you haven't reduced your risk of being the victim of a crime. What you've done is made yourself more comfortable.

In fact, the one shady scam artist I encoutered (which I referenced in my first post on this topic) was a Reggae artist. Do you work with reggae artists?

DF
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John Ivan

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Re: "I know R. Kelley ..."
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2006, 09:08:55 pm »

Well, here it is. This is going to come up from time to time because there is truth on both sides of this. On the one hand, there is fear.Sometimes this fear is based on stereotypes and sometimes it's based on being thankful you made it through a session alive.

In Detroit, you could book HIP HOP and RAP sessions everyday for a year and you WOULD have a room filled with violent felons almost every day. Call this what ever you want, I just call it Detroit. It is very very likely that if your buddy across the street from you, booked Rock Sessions everyday for a year, he WOULD HAVE dumb asses that can't tune and have bad judgment in his room every day. Book the Evangelical 's in every day and you get people who qualify every other sentence with "well, I'm a Christian, so," as if what they say will now have more weight!!

The truth in the inner City is that many many of the cats who are booking HIP HOP sessions are doing so with money they received dealing Dope to our kids. I'm not guessing here because I've lived in this and know it well so, argue if you want but it's fucking true. We have REAL problems in our cities and one of those problems is that entire parts of our cities are run by 20 year old cats who make $1000.00 per day violently protecting their drug sales territory.

You can find all kinds of people who are willing to screw you. White, Black ,name a culture and a background and you will find slime inside.

Are there Great people Booking these sessions too? Sure. Just not very many. It doesn't really matter to me if HIP HOP guys wanna TRY to book me. I might do a session for them. But, believe me when I tell you that a HUGE number of these guy will either be directly involved with a gang and Packing,or, they will have people with them that do/are.

It's just true. Sorry.

JI..................................
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Samc

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Re: "I know R. Kelley ..."
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2006, 02:35:23 am »

[quote title=John Ivan wrote on Wed, 03 May 2006 02:08................It's just true. Sorry..............[/quote]
So there you have it folks, no need to continue debating this, more conclusive evidence has been dumped on us.

Here are the most salient facts of these two highly scientific studies as presented by their authors:

1)  Most or all of the people involved in Hip-Hop, Rap and R&B are criminals and
    thugs, and In Detroit (at least) most, or all, are also violent felons.  They are
    involved in gangs, and they, and/or someone in their immediate group is
    always carrying an (illegal), concealed firearm.

2)  Rap/Hip-Hop culture promotes violence and the devaluation of women in our
    society.

3)  Most or all the people involved in the above mentioned (musical?) genres,
    can not play a musical instrument, and hence are not musicians.

4)  Many studio sessions for these genres are payed for with drug money.  In all
    cases, the drugs were sold to kids by young gangsters who violently protect their
    drug empires which include entire parts of American cities.

5)  Although there are a few good people involved with these genres, the vast
    majority are bad people.

6)  Rap/>Hip-Hop is more trouble than it's worth???........whatever the fuck that
    means.
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Sam Clayton

Fenris Wulf

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Re: "I know R. Kelley ..."
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2006, 05:52:39 am »

x
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Daniel Farris

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Re: "I know R. Kelley ..."
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2006, 06:20:23 am »

Fenris Wulf. wrote on Wed, 03 May 2006 10:52

I considered asking Steve to delete this thread,


Lotsa luck with that.

Quote:

because the opinions I have expressed, using my real name, might conceivably be used in a bogus lawsuit against me (like Derrick Mosely threatened to do when I told him he was banned from my studio).


Then stop digging...

Quote:

But no. Fuck that. I'm not going to hide from a santimonious liberal twit who wants to force everyone else to conform to his utopian ideas of social justice.


...and stop putting words in my mouth.

I never said that I thought you (or anyone else) should be forced to do anything. Nor did I opine one way or the other about the video duplicator who may or may not be forced to duplicate tapes he disagrees with. Essentially what I said was that I thought your stated policy reflected negatively on your character.

You may (or not) be a bad person, but I don't think you should be forced to be a good person. That would kind of cheapen the naturally good people I so often meet.

(And yes. I'm a pinko commie liberal. A well-armed one, but a liberal nonetheless. You'll get absolutely no apologies from me about that.)

By the way, the only clients I have *ever* refused to work with are a bunch of lame white motherfuckers called Bright Black, and it's entirely because of their completely psychotic pseudo hippie front man. If they can make a record without him, they're welcome here.

DF
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Fenris Wulf

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Re: "I know R. Kelley ..."
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2006, 07:02:08 am »

This was just an ironic/funny story about a former client going to prison for extortion. I mentioned in passing that I stopped recording hip-hop and R&B because of guys like him. It's not a racial thing, some studio owners won't touch Christian Contemporary for the same reason. I did NOT expect people to get their panties in a bunch and start attacking my character and gloating about how I'm going to get sued. This discussion is retarded.
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jimmyjazz

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Re: "I know R. Kelley ..."
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2006, 11:27:25 am »

electrical wrote on Sun, 30 April 2006 14:11

To defensively (generally) exclude hip hop sessions from your studio is ridiculous and smacks of racism.


Huh?  It might smack of "hiphopism", but I think it's a bigger stretch to label Fenris as racist than it is for him to label hiphop clientele as "risky".

People get correlation and causation mixed up all the time.  Doesn't make it right.
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McAllister

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Re: "I know R. Kelley ..."
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2006, 12:25:42 pm »

Besides, hip-hop is not a "black only" genre. To refuse to record it is a decision based on taste and experience. I am the wrong guy to record electronica, metal, or dance.

To refuse to record anyone based on skin color -- now that's a whole other issue.

M
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Vertigo

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Re: "I know R. Kelley ..."
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2006, 12:55:02 pm »

Being in Atlanta, I'm pretty familiar with the goods and evils of taking on Hip-Hop clients. Not all Hip-Hop artists are violent drug dealing felons, of course. But a lot of them ARE...

It's very tempting to take on their projects - you can easily make a couple of $k in a day just to record a couple of vocal tracks along to their beats. But you never know what element you're bringing into your studio. Being that my studio is in my home, I shy away from these projects as well, unless the artist is a personal friend of mine.

I have a good friend who ran a Hip-Hop studio here that quit the business for good a few years ago. For what it's worth he's black/african american/whatever the politically correct term is these days. He had a lot going for him - he had a very talented young rapper that he'd just taken in, as well as a top notch beat writer. He was producing their project on spec and had a fair amount of money tied into it.

One night he was working late when a group of men bashed the door down and broke in. They put a gun to his head, duct taped his eyes, mouth, hands, and legs, and put him face down in a bathtub while they robbed the place. And it turned out that the person who tipped these guys off to rob the place was the very same young rapper he'd taken under his wing.

Not that this couldn't happen with a rock act, or even a christian act for that matter. But when you consider the content of the music and the fact that the best rap comes from the rappers that are the most sincere about the lyrics they're singing, well... I'd rather work on songs about flowers and kittens...

-Lance
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Vertigo

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Re: "I know R. Kelley ..."
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2006, 12:59:30 pm »

Quote:

Besides, hip-hop is not a "black only" genre.


It is if you're talking about GOOD hip-hop Wink

Although there IS something addictive about Faf Larage...

-Lance
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John Ivan

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Re: "I know R. Kelley ..."
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2006, 03:04:57 pm »

[quote title=Samc wrote on Wed, 03 May 2006 01:35]
John Ivan wrote on Wed, 03 May 2006 02:08................It's just true. Sorry..............[/quote


So there you have it folks, no need to continue debating this, more conclusive evidence has been dumped on us.

Here are the most salient facts of these two highly scientific studies as presented by their authors:

1)  Most or all of the people involved in Hip-Hop, Rap and R&B are criminals and
    thugs, and In Detroit (at least) most, or all, are also violent felons.  They are
    involved in gangs, and they, and/or someone in their immediate group is
    always carrying an (illegal), concealed firearm.

2)  Rap/Hip-Hop culture promotes violence and the devaluation of women in our
    society.

3)  Most or all the people involved in the above mentioned (musical?) genres,
    can not play a musical instrument, and hence are not musicians.

4)  Many studio sessions for these genres are payed for with drug money.  In all
    cases, the drugs were sold to kids by young gangsters who violently protect their
    drug empires which include entire parts of American cities.

5)  Although there are a few good people involved with these genres, the vast
    majority are bad people.

6)  Rap/>Hip-Hop is more trouble than it's worth???........whatever the fuck that
    means.



2-4-and 6 are true in my opinion and the rest are up for grabs. It's very very hard to explain this to people who have not been directly in it's path over and over.

My post is ONLY and observation. " A blue car passed by my house". It's just like that.

I can't speak to "the majority" and to the extent that I generalized, perhaps this was wrong of me but, I can't help that what I stated has been MY truth and experience.

Sometimes, things are what they are whether we like it or not. It's hard to swallow.

A huge part of my "growing up" as a player and person was done learning from great R&B/SOUL players in Grand Rapids and Detroit and Lansing. These cats lived in very dangerous places in some cases. As time has moved on, these places have gotten worse not better.You see, all of a sudden, you don't need to know anything about music to make a record. I thought we had all noticed this by now. The great folks who showed me the ropes can barely work now. Why do you think that is? It may indeed be different on the high end of the hip hop thing but down here where the budgets are small a lot of these guys are out to send a message. In some cases these records are a way of communicating to rival gangs.

It's trip and very scary stuff. Our kid's are being killed by each other in the streets and the only folks who notice are getting blood on their shoes.

Welcome to America.

JI..................................
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John Ivan

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Re: "I know R. Kelley ..."
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2006, 03:26:06 pm »

Vertigo wrote on Wed, 03 May 2006 11:55

Being in Atlanta, I'm pretty familiar with the goods and evils of taking on Hip-Hop clients. Not all Hip-Hop artists are violent drug dealing felons, of course. But a lot of them ARE...

It's very tempting to take on their projects - you can easily make a couple of $k in a day just to record a couple of vocal tracks along to their beats. But you never know what element you're bringing into your studio. Being that my studio is in my home, I shy away from these projects as well, unless the artist is a personal friend of mine.

I have a good friend who ran a Hip-Hop studio here that quit the business for good a few years ago. For what it's worth he's black/african american/whatever the politically correct term is these days. He had a lot going for him - he had a very talented young rapper that he'd just taken in, as well as a top notch beat writer. He was producing their project on spec and had a fair amount of money tied into it.

One night he was working late when a group of men bashed the door down and broke in. They put a gun to his head, duct taped his eyes, mouth, hands, and legs, and put him face down in a bathtub while they robbed the place. And it turned out that the person who tipped these guys off to rob the place was the very same young rapper he'd taken under his wing.

Not that this couldn't happen with a rock act, or even a christian act for that matter. But when you consider the content of the music and the fact that the best rap comes from the rappers that are the most sincere about the lyrics they're singing, well... I'd rather work on songs about flowers and kittens...

-Lance




Sad to here this. A great Friend of mine called me last year and told me a story about his friend. There was a disagreement of some kind about the money owed to his friend who had recorded some stuff for a guy. The guy showed up one day and blew his brains out.

Sad!! and this sort of thing is not uncommon. It used to be uncommon. So, I can't say "what this means" other than to say it ,in some way, speaks for it's self.

I have many many African American friends both musically and though our school and our Hood. They are as troubled by this trend as anyone else.

JI.........................................................
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Werewolf10

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Re: "I know R. Kelley ..."
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2006, 06:37:29 pm »

Ok, so, I believe that 89% of the hipp-hoppers out there are drug dealers and violent criminals..  But what about the 11% that are NOT??  Do we just unfairly tell them to fuck off?  What about "KRS ONE"?  Thats the most positive guy on the face of the planet..  Should Mr. KRS not be allowed to record in anymore studios just because everyone else wants to act like jackass?

And what about the audiences of this "Dangerous Music"?  The main audiences are suburban white kids! NOT ghetto criminals and drug dealers..

As Fugazi said : "Nevermind whats been selling, It's what you're buying"  

Your kids that is......
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