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Author Topic: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix  (Read 6086 times)

Datcha

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Re: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2006, 07:59:47 AM »

I was just wondering if you guys in the US ever got to see that Rammstein video where they used the LR's footage?
Some people here in Europe thought they sympathised with the extreme right, but knowing their background I would say the opposite is true.

Still, even after they changed the editing, the footage itself is still very, very impressive.

And this is coming from someone who went to film school AND who's family got in to serious problems during WWII because of their involvement with the resistance. (these days they would be labelled as insurgents I guess...)

LR has a biography that, according to my friends who read it, is very well written,
downplays her Nazi sympathies & glorifies the 'African' body.
An admiration which she expressed with some amazing pictures...
All in one lifetime...

But I never saw an ALW musical so I can't really comment on the initial remark.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2006, 12:15:26 PM »

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a record whose time has come: Meat Loaf Sings Andrew Lloyd Weber

There's several points of view to Leni's actual political sympathies.  She has a few apologists out there.  

One of my best friend's father actually wound up in a concentration camp because he was a part of the White Rose anti Nazi movement.  He actually escaped because his father bribed a guard.  

The movie Downfall is playing I think on Showtime this month.  If you've never seen it, I recommend that you do.  It boggles my mind how a situation like that can happen, but we can see it still happening today.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

compasspnt

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Re: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2006, 12:39:49 PM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 22 April 2006 12:15

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a record whose time has come: Meat Loaf Sings Andrew Lloyd Weber


Wow, what a gargantuan idea!  One of the great song stylists and vocalists of our time, singing some of the greatest songs of our time from the greatest Webber of our time!

Where is Steinman when we need him?
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wwittman

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Re: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2006, 12:56:56 PM »

He would do anything for cash,  but he won't do that...
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William Wittman
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Daniel Farris

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Re: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2006, 01:23:46 PM »

compasspnt wrote on Sat, 22 April 2006 17:39

from the greatest Webber of our time!


Yeah. Whatever meter you measure that crap on, he has it pegged all the way into the red.

DF
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maxim

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Re: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2006, 10:03:58 PM »

terry wrote:

"....greatest Webber of our time!"

i still prefer the barbecue grill
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Tidewater

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Re: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2006, 08:21:23 AM »

wwittman wrote on Sat, 22 April 2006 12:56

He would do anything for cash,  but he won't do that...


Surprised

ROFLMAO!


M
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Ashermusic

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Re: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2006, 10:29:32 AM »

While it is not hip to say this I happen to think that Andrew has written some good shows. I still love the music from Jesus Christ Superstar and Evita.

And BTW there are quite a number of us Americans who know about Leni's work and how dangerously skilled she was.
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cgc

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Re: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2006, 11:19:38 AM »

Alright JJ, let's see how much you know!  Who was the famous European director that cut all of Leni's multi-hour epics down to 4 reels each for the US government?
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J.J. Blair

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Re: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2006, 03:49:51 PM »

No idea.  I'm a WWII buff, not a Euro Film buff.  Otto Preminger?  Ask me anything about the war, particularly in Europe, or about the
Nutsees, and I probably know it.

It was funny, last night I was watching Patton on cable and I was having to explain to my wife who people were, what each battle was, etc.  My grandfather had served under Patton in Sicily, and I've been studying that war since I was a kid.
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studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

wwittman

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Re: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2006, 03:58:06 PM »

call me a hippie... I'm more of a "peace buff"

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William Wittman
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J.J. Blair

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Re: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2006, 04:40:34 PM »

From a historical perspective.  I don't like war, obviously.  I find that the social and political conditions which led to what happened back then are mind boggling, which have made me want to study that.  As well, WWII was a particular type of conflict that was the only of its type.  I don't have a general interest in war, or really any other war.  But I think that WWII is probably the most important event of the 20th century.  Things that happened during the war or in its wake, such as the Holocaust, the Iron Curtain, the rocket age, the jet age, the consolidation of ethnic groups which hate each other into one country as maps were redrawn, stories of heroism and sacrifice, etc., is an endlessly fascinating subject and worth learning about.
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studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Tidewater

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Re: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2006, 07:30:01 PM »

I second the WWII stuff. Average people stood up to trained evil, and won.

I lost alot of good friends in that war. I never met them, but they were obviously friends of mine. A time for heroes.

By the way, that time is here again, hate to say.


M
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maxim

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Re: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2006, 08:13:37 PM »

yes, we're well into ww3, and, i'm afraid, we can't blame andrew lloyd webber this time
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eagan

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Re: OT: Andrew Lloyd Weber and the Holocaust don't mix
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2006, 10:31:39 PM »

I'm pretty much with JJB on this, although with the slight adjustment that I think, in particular, what happened in the thirties leading up to the Big Ugly is something everybody should know. It's maybe the biggest "cautionary tale" lesson ever.

In the decades since, people have wondered and asked "those terrible German people, how could they bring this on the world by supporting the Nazis and Hitler?". They don't understand how it happened. How easily it happened.

It short form, it happened because people saw what they wanted to see. In a country that was in a real mess, a culture that put high value on ideas like strength and effeciency and rigid order thought they saw a bunch who would bring them. They didn't think about the costs, and couldn't, or choose not, to see that their "mighty leader" was just some little Austrian jerk with a cheesy moustache and the nastiest bad attitude imaginable, who couldn't sell his crappy paintings. With a bunch of goons behind him.

By the time maybe some of the regular folks started to grasp something was wrong, I suspect the average German probably just tried to go about their daily business and steered clear of gangs of blockheads in brown shirts. By then it was probably too late for most. They were stuck in it.

People like LR helped sell what seemed like the shiny happy version to the population, and the mass delusion took hold. By the time the average guy started waking up from it, it was probably too late to even quietly suggest to your buddies at work that maybe something was wrong, without risking a bullet in the head soon after.

I don't really know a lot about Leni Reifenstahl, but from what I gather, it was a story where moral choices got shuffled to the side, with maybe a little self delusion to serve the short term, for the idea "hey, I could really get a good gig here". I'm a little curious to know more about how she rationalized things before, during, and in years after.

There are probably a bunch of stories like that. Ferdinand Porsche would be another one. The Volkswagen Beetle was Hitler's baby that he got Porsche to realize, and Herr Porsche happily played along because it seemed like the perfect chance to pursue some of his own concepts. Apparently he just shrugged and took the attitude "I'm not interested in the politics", and made a deal. This also extended to another branch of Hitler's propaganda machine.

To demonstrate the "new Germany" technological superiority, Hitler and his boys threw massive support into motorsports, which led to the prewar Grand Prix racing (precursor to today's Formula One) being dominated by Mercedes and Auto Union. You might not know the name "Auto Union". That's understandable. It's now Audi, and today's Audi-Porsche-Volkswagen group has its roots back then. Got a Volkswagen? Pop the hood. Look around the engine bay, and somewhere on cast parts you'll find a logo of four interlocking rings, the Audi logo. You can look at old photos of the Auto Union racers in the thirties that fed the Nazi propaganda machine, with that same logo on the nose. I have trouble seeing a silver Audi TT on the road today without mixed feelings. A lot of otherwise good people worked in all that, saying some variation on "I'm just an engineer" or "I just want to race and win", and the Nutsee promo machine got the PR benefits.

Of course Doctor Porsche also got spanked for this stuff after the war, spending some time in a French dungeon of a jail cell.

Hey, while I'm on it, let's not overlook something conveniently forgotten over the years, which was that Henry Ford, in the thirties, thought that these National Socialist guys over there in Germany were just a great bunch, and he was all for them. Even offered help and advice for the Porsche/Nazi "People's Car" project and invited the boys over for a little tour of the place in Dearborn. Even less often discussed is that the Bush family fortune, apparently, didn't actually start with the oil business, the big money that led to that business was Dubya's grandpa being one of the people who arranged financing deals for a little "seed money" to the German National Socialist party in the thirties, which paid back large dividends.

Sorry for the long post in something a little OT in this forum, but the point is that we can look at stories like Leni Reifenstahl, and there are a couple points to get from it. That it can be really easy for people to overlook ugly stuff happening right in front of them in favor of grabbing a chance at Big Career Advancement for themselves, and not see the big repercussions in the future; and second, that in the future, excuses like "oh, well, it had nothing to do with me, really, I was just doing a job" don't tend to be excused and looked upon with tolerance and kindness. If something that seems like an opportune gig comes up, but something bothers you about it, maybe you should not too easily convince yourself that "it's nothing, besides, it's just a gig, I'm just doing a job, it's not for me to decide if there's something bigger that's wrong here".

(In the years since WW2, this has sometimes been called "the Good German" syndrome)

JLE
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