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Author Topic: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)  (Read 6131 times)

rankus

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Re: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2006, 02:20:26 pm »

zboy2854 wrote on Wed, 12 April 2006 16:09

rankus wrote on Wed, 12 April 2006 18:34



Iran? Just another region to aim the silos at.. Good ole "Mutually Assured Destruction" should take care of the rest... It's been working for 40-50 years already.



Ahh, but herein lies the rub, and the difference this time around.  MAD has only worked when BOTH sides cared about surviving.  Now with the current virulent strain of Islamic fundamentalism, where dying is not only not feared, it is celebrated, embraced, and welcomed, the rules of the game change.  All it takes is someone who adheres to this type of fundamentalism to lead his nation into Armageddon.  We don't know for sure yet, but Ahmadinejad looks like he might just fit the bill...


Zach,  I agree, but offer this as a possible alternative:

If there are thousands even millions willing to strap dynamite to themselves and march into our lives and kill themselves.... Where are they?

For 11/9 there were only what 20 men involved?  Same with all the other "terrorist attacks" ... why only one or ten suicide people.  Why not a hundred, or a thousand....?

It's very simple really.  There just aren't that many folks actually willing to wrap themselves in dynamite and hit the button....

The fact that there aren't numerous attacks daily is proof of this... It would be insanely simple to bring the US or Canada to it's knees... just blow up a few levy's and airports at the same time...  Poison some water sheds... done!

The reality is that they do not have the manpower or financial resources to do it...

There is a lot (aside from 11/9 etc.) of propaganda to keep our nation(s) living in fear.  

Threat? Yes.   But not as big as they want you to believe.

I am far more fearfull of say, cancer, than Islam.  In fact I will predict more deaths from smoking this year than Osama...
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zboy2854

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Re: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2006, 03:24:20 pm »

rankus wrote on Thu, 13 April 2006 14:20

zboy2854 wrote on Wed, 12 April 2006 16:09

rankus wrote on Wed, 12 April 2006 18:34



Iran? Just another region to aim the silos at.. Good ole "Mutually Assured Destruction" should take care of the rest... It's been working for 40-50 years already.



Ahh, but herein lies the rub, and the difference this time around.  MAD has only worked when BOTH sides cared about surviving.  Now with the current virulent strain of Islamic fundamentalism, where dying is not only not feared, it is celebrated, embraced, and welcomed, the rules of the game change.  All it takes is someone who adheres to this type of fundamentalism to lead his nation into Armageddon.  We don't know for sure yet, but Ahmadinejad looks like he might just fit the bill...


Zach,  I agree, but offer this as a possible alternative:

If there are thousands even millions willing to strap dynamite to themselves and march into our lives and kill themselves.... Where are they?

For 11/9 there were only what 20 men involved?  Same with all the other "terrorist attacks" ... why only one or ten suicide people.  Why not a hundred, or a thousand....?

It's very simple really.  There just aren't that many folks actually willing to wrap themselves in dynamite and hit the button....

The fact that there aren't numerous attacks daily is proof of this... It would be insanely simple to bring the US or Canada to it's knees... just blow up a few levy's and airports at the same time...  Poison some water sheds... done!

The reality is that they do not have the manpower or financial resources to do it...

There is a lot (aside from 11/9 etc.) of propaganda to keep our nation(s) living in fear.  

Threat? Yes.   But not as big as they want you to believe.

I am far more fearfull of say, cancer, than Islam.  In fact I will predict more deaths from smoking this year than Osama...



True, but the problem these days is not the number of people willing to carry out these kinds of acts, it's the fact that the technologies exist (nuclear, biological, chemical) to allow just one or a few determined people to wipe out large swaths of a population without needing an army of followers.

Many people think that the collapse of the Soviet Union made the world safer, but the opposite is true.  It used to be that we knew precisely who had access to nuclear technology, and the club was a small and easily identified one.  As the USSR broke up, parts of their nuclear arsenals and technology went on the black market to the highest bidder.  We saw it when AQ Khan helped Pakistan achieve nuclear status,and God knows who else he sold the technology to.  But it's no coincidence that the number of "known" nuclear powers in the world has jumped since the fall of the USSR, and it becomes anybody's guess anymore as to who and when someone new will pop up having acquired the technology.

So the danger isn't in the number of people with apocalyptic ideologies, it's in the idea of just one of them coming to power in a nation-state, or gaining access to technology that would allow an individual or handful of individuals to commit genocide.
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Die BREMSSPUR

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Re: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2006, 03:43:53 pm »

rankus wrote on Thu, 13 April 2006 13:20








I am far more fearfull of say, cancer, than Islam.  In fact I will predict more deaths from smoking this year than Osama...




Sorry to call you on this but victims of Osama are usually smoking.....

I know it's in bad taste but I am just trying to point out that the Chineese have nothing but ill will toward us and the Boxer Rebellion proves it!

That, and their invention of tobacco...

What do you mean "we" white man?

lemme nough
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Tidewater

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Re: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2006, 04:06:27 pm »

Islam is coming for all of us.

This is Germany, 1935.


M
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John Ivan

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Re: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2006, 04:46:29 pm »

I don't mean to take this off topic but, so much of this problem can be tracked directly back to American foreign policy over the last 50 years or so. And, it can be tracked to laziness that defines the congress and the executive branch. It is stunning to look at how little real work gets done in Washington and the time will come {it's here NOW} when we realize we've been way behind the 8 ball,so to speak, when it comes to getting our minds around the source of the problems we face in the middle east.{and China,North Korea etc..}

On the front end of all these issues is one huge misjudgement after another regarding which Dictator we prop up at any given time and what we are willing to do to put Gas in our cars. I think very few people in Washington have the bigger picture in mind and it's likely that we are in a brutal period in the "learning curve" ..

There can be NO excusing the blowing up of Air planes or the whole sale destruction of human life for Ideology. None. But also, there is no excuse for not looking back honestly and seeing that we have made very bad choices in dealing with these people.

Our record is revealing. Uninformed and at times, brutal. Perhaps smarter people will be hired by the American public but, if history is an indicator, we might just be screwed.

Sorry for the rant.

JI..............................................
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Tidewater

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Re: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2006, 05:02:41 pm »

I disagree. That is the apologist line. It's taugh on every corner.

History says otherwise, I am not ruled by rewritten history, it's deadly.


M
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John Ivan

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Re: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2006, 06:26:36 pm »

Well, I'm not sure I follow. I'm not rewriting history at all. I'm just pointing out some of what happened. ie. "am man in a red shirt fell on the ice"... just like that. Nothing has to be rewritten to see that the man fell.

I am NOT an apologist at all!! I'm just saying that our unwillingness to look at the mistakes we've made has, and will get us killed. How does this apologize for anything. ?

For me, there are two different things to consider. One is, these people are pigs and want to kill us. The other is, we've known this for a long time but still have their dick in our mouth. Why? Why are we willing to do Business with these people at all?

I'm just saying, we should have learned from the past and It seems we have not. that's all.

JI............................................
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Tidewater

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Re: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2006, 06:57:07 pm »

My point might be that I don't care why I am in danger of being attacked.

I take it personally.

I'd rather have the kids of my friend's growing up... in a system more like what the US used to be, than charred, or growing up under Islamic law.


M
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maxim

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Re: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2006, 07:50:14 pm »

miles wrote:

"I'd rather have the kids of my friend's growing up... in a system more like what the US used to be, than charred, or growing up under Islamic law."

are those the only choices?

there is no excusable reason to accept the status quo

the yanks declared war on osama when they landed in saudi arabia to invade kuwait

the aussies joined them

now, my son is a declared enemy of people i don't know in a (second) war i do not support

yeah, i'm pissed off

unfortunately, the trouble with democracy is that it involves people



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rankus

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Re: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2006, 09:11:08 pm »

zboy2854 wrote on Thu, 13 April 2006 12:24

rankus wrote on Thu, 13 April 2006 14:20

zboy2854 wrote on Wed, 12 April 2006 16:09

rankus wrote on Wed, 12 April 2006 18:34



Iran? Just another region to aim the silos at.. Good ole "Mutually Assured Destruction" should take care of the rest... It's been working for 40-50 years already.



Ahh, but herein lies the rub, and the difference this time around.  MAD has only worked when BOTH sides cared about surviving.  Now with the current virulent strain of Islamic fundamentalism, where dying is not only not feared, it is celebrated, embraced, and welcomed, the rules of the game change.  All it takes is someone who adheres to this type of fundamentalism to lead his nation into Armageddon.  We don't know for sure yet, but Ahmadinejad looks like he might just fit the bill...


Zach,  I agree, but offer this as a possible alternative:

If there are thousands even millions willing to strap dynamite to themselves and march into our lives and kill themselves.... Where are they?

For 11/9 there were only what 20 men involved?  Same with all the other "terrorist attacks" ... why only one or ten suicide people.  Why not a hundred, or a thousand....?

It's very simple really.  There just aren't that many folks actually willing to wrap themselves in dynamite and hit the button....

The fact that there aren't numerous attacks daily is proof of this... It would be insanely simple to bring the US or Canada to it's knees... just blow up a few levy's and airports at the same time...  Poison some water sheds... done!

The reality is that they do not have the manpower or financial resources to do it...

There is a lot (aside from 11/9 etc.) of propaganda to keep our nation(s) living in fear.  

Threat? Yes.   But not as big as they want you to believe.

I am far more fearfull of say, cancer, than Islam.  In fact I will predict more deaths from smoking this year than Osama...



True, but the problem these days is not the number of people willing to carry out these kinds of acts, it's the fact that the technologies exist (nuclear, biological, chemical) to allow just one or a few determined people to wipe out large swaths of a population without needing an army of followers.

Many people think that the collapse of the Soviet Union made the world safer, but the opposite is true.  .



Two very good points Zach. I agree.

I suppose my point was that as individuals we are not in that great a risk...

Theres safety in numbers, and our odds as individuals is pretty darned good.

Even  a small army, with nukes/ chemicals strapped to busses, they could only take out a city or two at best before the entire desert over there is turned to melted glass.  

Bring it on baby... bring it on...
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zboy2854

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Re: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2006, 08:28:23 am »

rankus wrote on Thu, 13 April 2006 21:11



Even  a small army, with nukes/ chemicals strapped to busses, they could only take out a city or two at best before the entire desert over there is turned to melted glass.  

Bring it on baby... bring it on...


Taking out a major city or two in the U.S. could mean millions of lives lost.  To me, that's not acceptable losses, not to mention all the innocents who would be killed "over there" in a retaliatory strike.  If that day were to come, the world would indeed be a very dark place.

As they say, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".  Personally, I'm conflicted.  On the one hand, I think the Bush administration is one of the few administrations that has the balls to take preventative measures against our potential enemies.  On the other hand, this administration is so damned incompetent at actually executing any plan that it ends up doing more harm than good. Confused

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malice

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Re: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2006, 10:32:37 am »

/0 wrote on Thu, 13 April 2006 22:06

Islam is coming for all of us.

This is Germany, 1935.


M


You really don't get it do you ?


This decision from Iran is the direct consequence of the incredibly stupid mess US has done in Iraq in particular and in the middle East in general.

Now don't get me wrong, something has to be done to clean this total fiasco, and I don't think the world can afford to let Iran develop nuclear capability.

But while doing that, maybe it's about time to remove this administration before they decide to make a live remake of Dr Strangelove in front of our sorry eyes.

I don't believe one second that those idiots at the White House are not seriously considering targeting Iran with Nukes.

Believe me, they are that stupid and dangerous.

The question is : "how long will it take for you to realise you are sorely mistaken letting Dubbya playing with the red button ?"


That said,


don't expect me to discuss any longer than that about this issue.

I'm tired to state the obvious.

You made a mess, you clean it, that is how I see things.

If you were a banana republic, I would ask my deputy to vote a "police" action to free your country and restore peace in the world, unfortunatly, you are the most powerful nation in the planet so there is nothing we can do right now but to wait for you to realise.

One can dream.

malice

Tidewater

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Re: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2006, 01:08:11 pm »

Yes, it's all about Bush, again, always.. subvert.

Whatever. Love him, hate him. I am for the league, not the team.

This thread is hisssstory for me. Have fun, good luck.


M
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Fibes

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Re: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2006, 01:09:46 pm »

Quote:

This decision from Iran is the direct consequence of the incredibly stupid mess US has done in Iraq in particular and in the middle East in general.




The Iranian nuke program has been going on since prolly the early eighties. It's easy to blame the current administration but this is one pimple that was gonna boil over no matter what.

"Those who control the spice..."

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As a libertarian I'm disgusted. I'll vote when I get the chance but chances are the vote won't be a decision I made. Good people and government don't go together, the presidency could be chosen by lottery and chances are the qualifications would exceed the morons who are stupid enough to run to grant favors for their benefactors.







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rankus

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Re: Oh boy, here we go... (Nuclear Iran)
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2006, 01:10:29 pm »

malice wrote on Fri, 14 April 2006 07:32




If you were a banana republic, I would ask my deputy to vote a "police" action to free your country and restore peace in the world, unfortunately, you are the most powerful nation in the planet so there is nothing we can do right now but to wait for you to realize.

One can dream.

malice


With all due respect Malice, there would be no France if it weren't for the United States... It may be that they (we) are war mongers, but at least they are on YOUR side.

And to the topic in general:  It's only a matter of time until ALL the banana republics have Nukes.  This is the long term issue.  It will not be possible to contain all of them.  What then?  (I seriously dunno... I'm asking)

It may be that global nuclear war is inevitable... and the fact that it hasn't happened yet... well, you can probably thank the USA for that!

And as I can tell where this thread is heading, I will probably bail on any further comment.
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