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Author Topic: 1 for the Wave Burner users.  (Read 3173 times)

The Watcher

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1 for the Wave Burner users.
« on: April 10, 2006, 01:01:24 PM »

Hello all,

Aigit, Im a mix engineer not a mastering engineer so please bear with my method here, it has been working well for me and I am in no way trying to self master, I use "Real" Mastering engineers such as Brad or others at sterling or sony on everyting eventually.

I mix mainly Hiphop, R&B, and Pop records for a combination of local and major label urban acts and I really feel that getting a hot premaster out to the client is very important in the mix approval process.  "Quiet" CDs just dont "feel" the same in the truck as MASTERS.  Despite what everyone says about just turning the volume knob up to hear it loud it is NOT the same, and when your mix approval is coming form the way that cd sounds in the truck you can start to see my problem.

Also, with the trend of LOUD masters there is a damage factor happening to the audio that is un avodable, I think we can all agree on that point.  With Labels and client demanding LOUD cds I really dont see myself as having an option but to embrase it and try to make the best of the situation for now.

SO on to my problem.  When mixing in ITB, in PT speficially, I have my mix peaking at lets say -8.  Also, I dont tolerate hot leves in the DAW and try to be as clean with the gain staging as possible.  After getting my mix Lets say 90% there I want to A/B it with current popular records.  OK all well and good I can turn down the loud master to match my mix.  This is problematic because now I am matching a mix that probably has NO 2 mix compression to very little (read 1 to 1.5 db with an SSL style comp) against somthing tha may have been limited and distorted.  Apples and oranges right?  So my solution was to start to try to premaster my mix inside the daw by doing some slight limiting with the Sony Limiter and then using the faders on a Waves Ren EQ to straight clip the whole thing untill i can get it within 2 or 3 db of the popular master im referencing.

This has been a great system.  Dont get me wrong, my Clip happy masters sound like garbage compared to the work that yall do, but they do sound better than just L2ing the song and leveling it up. I find that after Real Masetering my mixes are comng back loud and with less Suprises than they used to.  ie: if the mix gets slammed with a comp then balences change drasticly sometimes and I hate when things come back and sounding different as hell.

OK so in PT I can print the Premaster clipped like this in its fixed 24bit format and everyone is happy.  When Im working on an analog desk or in logic I have a new problem.  In PT when I clip, the information is lost after the initial clip at the ren eq fader.  I can then place another eq after tha one, pull it down .2db and I have no overs and the cd plays great.  In logic or WAVE Burner (Which I would use whe I mix on the analog surface.) this workes differently.  After clipping the mix if i pull it back down the .2db I get some of the clipped information back and I still have overs.(I believe this is due to the 32 bit float thing right?)  Keep in mind that the clipped sound coming off the DAW rig sounds fine (Clipping 3 to 5 db at the MOST) but when I hit the "BURN" button the cd it makes has TONES of very harsh, speaker destroying, digital distortion.  

Heres the wrinkle.  I assumed that clipping the CD in Wave Bruner like this was going to cause problems so the frst thing I did was hang a CDr standalone recorder off the SP DIff out of the DAW.  I monitor Wave burner with that CD burner in input so I am hearing it thru those converters.  No Distortion there.  If I put a CDR in the deck and run a version off waveburner, digitally direct to the the CDr recorder, the master sound fine.  No distortion.

Its only the BURN button that is doing this.

PT can not be the way.  Please.  Im trying to get the PT ball and chain that Im tied to off my back.  Is the anything I can do to make this process work in waveburner?

Thanks all in advance.
Matt




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Jerry Tubb

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Re: 1 for the Wave Burner users.
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2006, 01:24:29 PM »

I've never run across the problem you are describing.

Here's a recent thread on troubleshooting WaveBurner:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/10264/0//8 440/

There might be some clues in there.

Good Luck
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The Watcher

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Re: 1 for the Wave Burner users.
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2006, 01:34:33 PM »

Jerry.

So if you look at your level meter (I think apple "L") you have overs that dont cause significant distortion?  Remember I am just pushing the volume up by draggin the gain lines up till its loud.

I an running the logic 7.2 updated ver, i will check pro ap support.  FWIW Logic is running great.  Crashing is not a pooblem.  

Matt
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: 1 for the Wave Burner users.
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2006, 01:51:22 PM »

The Watcher wrote on Mon, 10 April 2006 12:34

Remember I am just pushing the volume up by draggin the gain lines up till its loud.


Oooh!  How many dB?  How far do you push it before it distorts?

Sounds like you're asking WB to do something the internal math won't handle.

The digital bucket is over flowing, probably in bouncing to 16-bit for the CD burn.

I would suggest you use a limiter or other processing to achieve the loudness instead.

regards
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The Watcher

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Re: 1 for the Wave Burner users.
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2006, 02:05:40 PM »

Well Its kinda hard 2 tell when its actually distorting. Its clipping abou t 2 db at anygiven moment.  Swinging up to 5 at the most. The mixes are printed at -8ish so im pushing the gain up betwere 13 and 15 db.   What is hard for me to grasp is why it sounds fine on playback.. I can transfer it digitally to the standalone burner and make a clear 16bit master.  But the internal bounce feature distorts.  

Its crazy.  It its all 1s and 0s.  Record those 1s and 0s to a standalone via spdiff and its fine so wtf is waveburner doing  that makes it bad.  How is it possible that a spdiff cable and a Crappy Tascam Cd deck can do things that mastering software canot?

Why can PT do it with no problem?  Your telling me that Pro Tools can export/ process, and combine "Better" than waveburner?

If this is the case I do want to know, but I dont understand.

Matt
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brett

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Re: 1 for the Wave Burner users.
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2006, 11:47:00 PM »

use DSPQuatro. It's a $149 and it rocks!!! it didn't like the core audio drivers thougg of 6.4.1, so you may need another audio interface. I was just using the built in with headphones just to do the same thing you are. Get a premaster hot to check the mix out. And I used it to add track points to DJ mixes I download as mp3.  
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The Watcher

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Re: 1 for the Wave Burner users.
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2006, 11:09:38 AM »

All The Mastering guys here and no one can tell me why a program is doing what its doing?  Not even a guess?  

Crazy.

OK then.

Matt
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jdg

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Re: 1 for the Wave Burner users.
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2006, 11:38:50 AM »

did u go thru all the trouble shooting tips in the other thred? install PAS and etc?

my waveburner doesn't have the problems your describing.
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Wave Werks

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Re: 1 for the Wave Burner users.
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2006, 11:44:00 AM »

The Watcher wrote on Tue, 11 April 2006 11:09

All The Mastering guys here and no one can tell me why a program is doing what its doing?  Not even a guess?  

Crazy.

OK then.

Matt


Sorry Matt.

I use WaveBurner daily and have never run into the problem you're having.  Sounds like it's specific to your setup.  Could be the software revision, something strange in preferences, or something altogether different.  As Jerry mentioned earlier... there's a great thread with a bunch of insight and fixes for several strange occurances.  
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/10264/0//8 440/
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: 1 for the Wave Burner users.
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2006, 02:41:38 PM »

The Watcher wrote on Tue, 11 April 2006 10:09

All The Mastering guys here and no one can tell me why a program is doing what its doing?  Not even a guess?


Matt

The Answer is:  You are simply getting too Clip Happy here!

No Big Mystery... you've painted yourself into a corner, find another approach.

You're asking WaveBurner to do something it's not designed to do.

It's not the answer you want, but that's it.

My Guess:

In WBs "bounce to disk" the internal math is overloading, when it's "dithering" and reducing from 24-bit to 16-bit, because of the clipping you've added, with the "gain line" in WB.

The Tascam CD burner is probably truncating from 24-bit to 16-bit, so it writes to CD-R just fine.

You might try turning the WBs dithering "off" and truncating on the bounce instead... although that wouldn't be my choice.

Back in the Olden Tymes of digital, before 24-bit was common, we wouldn't dare even go near clipping (at least not much) for fear of overloading  and suffering the horribly distorted audio result.

The reason you're not getting a lot of feedback on the complicated question you're asking is simple. When MEs read the scenario, their reaction is "whoah the guy is clipping all over the place, and he wants to know WHY it's distorting". Kinda disqualifies it as a legitimate question.

You're gonna have to find another solution... like a limiter with an absolute ceiling to prevent overflow.

Fair Enough?
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e-cue

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Re: 1 for the Wave Burner users.
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2006, 03:31:46 PM »

The Watcher wrote on Mon, 10 April 2006 11:05

What is hard for me to grasp is why it sounds fine on playback.. I can transfer it digitally to the standalone burner and make a clear 16bit master.  But the internal bounce feature distorts.  

...

Matt



Have you played a burnt disc on the same system and experenced the same thing (through the same montors you didn't hear a problem on when monitoring)?  Are you burning the disc from a different program?

Is everything staying the same sampling &bit rate, or are you going from, say 48k 24 bit to 44.1k 16 bit?

What's your setup (os, version of WB, etc)?  

I experenced this a zillion times with the older version on os9.  I understand your frustration.
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The Watcher

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Re: 1 for the Wave Burner users.
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2006, 03:55:41 PM »

Jerry Tubb wrote on Tue, 11 April 2006 14:41

The Watcher wrote on Tue, 11 April 2006 10:09

All The Mastering guys here and no one can tell me why a program is doing what its doing?  Not even a guess?


Matt

The Answer is:  You are simply getting too Clip Happy here!

No Big Mystery... you've painted yourself into a corner, find another approach.

You're asking WaveBurner to do something it's not designed to do.

It's not the answer you want, but that's it.


First off.  Yes I understand that I might be asking Waveburner to do somthing It is not intended to do.  This is why I asked the question here in the first place.  I know for a fact the some "ME'S" clip a few db here and there.  I dont feel I was clip happy cauze I CAN hear distortion.  I DO have ears.  My problem was that What I was hearing was not translating to CD after a bounce.  I wanted to know what other waveburner users had experienced before I spent the whole day redoing the thing I was working on.  Others answered that something was wrong with the program and you were VERY helpfull with the troubleshooting thred.  I was searching for that and had not found it.  

As all of us are audio professionals.  If you were working on a master and it sounded how you wanted it, then did an offline bounce and it cameback even a little different sounding WE ALL should be calling bullshit on that program.  A bounce should PHASE NULL against the original files.  End of story.

Jerry Tubb wrote on Tue, 11 April 2006 14:41


My Guess:

In WBs "bounce to disk" the internal math is overloading, when it's "dithering" and reducing from 24-bit to 16-bit, because of the clipping you've added, with the "gain line" in WB.

The Tascam CD burner is probably truncating from 24-bit to 16-bit, so it writes to CD-R just fine.

You might try turning the WBs dithering "off" and truncating on the bounce instead... although that wouldn't be my choice.



Dig this.  I turned it ON (remember I am NOT a Mastering Eengineer I am a Mix Engineer. I dithered the files b4 i went to waveburner cauze I didnt know where the dither was located.  "Preferences" is a lame place to hide that.)

With the dither turned on all is well.  The cd burned from WB sounding EXACTILY as I heard it while working.  I contacted apple about this and they told me to reinstall the software.  Any Other advice was going o cost 250.00. I may reinstall later, but as of now i can push the track 10 db ito clipping and the bounce is all good.  It sounds like caca, but the digital noise is gone.

Jerry Tubb wrote on Tue, 11 April 2006 14:41


Back in the Olden Tymes of digital, before 24-bit was common, we wouldn't dare even go near clipping (at least not much) for fear of overloading  and suffering the horribly distorted audio result.



You must think im 8 years old.  I dont need a lecture about olden time, I was there. Plus its not even remotly true.  As Digital came up in this biz I saw many major engineers at major studios clip every kick and snare to dat on thier final mix print that went to mastering.  That clipping did not sound bad.  I dont feel that I would have done that, but it did not make any of those records not become a hit.  The mastering engineers never called and said reprint.


Jerry Tubb wrote on Tue, 11 April 2006 14:41


The reason you're not getting a lot of feedback on the complicated question you're asking is simple. When MEs read the scenario, their reaction is "whoah the guy is clipping all over the place, and he wants to know WHY it's distorting".

Kinda disqualifies it as a legitimate question.


I know its "CLIPPING"  I can hear that.  I want that.  Thats the whole point.  What I was getting was HARD Whiteniose sounding DISTORTION.  Not clipping.  

I also didnt know there a planel of judges deciding if my question was legitimate or not.  Its allways good to know Im being judged.

Jerry Tubb wrote on Tue, 11 April 2006 14:41


You're gonna have to find another solution... like a limiter with an absolute ceiling to prevent overflow.

Fair Enough?


No.  All I wanted to know was if this was a problem that other waveburner users had experienced.  Typicaly I dont ask people on the internet for anything.  I wouldent have posted here but I spoke with Brad and he said there were many WB users on his forum so I thought maybe some nice ME will help me.

Look at the quote you used from me.  
The Watcher wrote on Tue, 11 April 2006 10:09

All The Mastering guys here and no one can tell me why a program is doing what its doing?  Not even a guess?

I didnt ask for other solutions.  I just wanted 2 know if anyone understood what my problem was.  

Please dot get me twisted here tho.  I am not trying to start a fight.  JDG simply posted what I asked for.  Some with Ecue, Waveburner should not behave this way and somthing is wrong.  You posted a trubleshooting thread that was helpfull, altho not the culpret and I think yo for that.  I relize this clipping the masters thing is a really touchy subject for yall.  Hey I hear ya, I loath when a client tells me to put an L2 across my mix cauze they like how it sounds in the PTLE rig at home.  I just need to be able to hear what might happen downstream before I can be happy with the mix. Plus then thiers clearchannel compression that I have to think about too.  Its damn hard to avoid problems nowadays. I want my product to sound how I want it to sound.  I dont want it to sound crappy on the radio.  Mixing with all that in mind is the only way to work in this day and age.

Thank you everyone for you time.  Everything seems to be working fine now.  

Dither

Crazy.

Matt
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turtletone

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Re: 1 for the Wave Burner users.
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2006, 10:50:45 PM »

why is it that all the high profile mix engineers never
deliver a mix that touches zero. They don't seem to have
a problem making a living mixing without clipping the
2 buss. Not one. I'm talking about guys that mix
the big blockbuster selling records, guys that still
get the big bucks from the major labels. Never have
I received a mix from one of these mixers that came
close to zero.

Where as the mixers who do deliver mixes that are
2X4's are the ones that don't get paid very much.

Just some food for thought.
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bblackwood

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Re: 1 for the Wave Burner users.
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2006, 11:20:39 PM »

TurtleTone wrote on Tue, 11 April 2006 21:50

why is it that all the high profile mix engineers never
deliver a mix that touches zero. They don't seem to have
a problem making a living mixing without clipping the
2 buss. Not one. I'm talking about guys that mix
the big blockbuster selling records, guys that still
get the big bucks from the major labels. Never have
I received a mix from one of these mixers that came
close to zero.

Where as the mixers who do deliver mixes that are
2X4's are the ones that don't get paid very much.

Just some food for thought.

FWIW, Matt is not one who maximizes his mixes - in fact he's found that they tend to sound better rather 'low' in level compared to most. In his defense, I pointed him to my forum as I knew there were several Waveburner users here who could (hopefully) help him cut refs for his clients as they desired.

Matt knows what he's doing and his mixes are rather amazing, imo.
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: 1 for the Wave Burner users.
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2006, 01:50:34 AM »

The Watcher wrote on Tue, 11 April 2006 14:55

Thank you everyone for you time.  Everything seems to be working fine now. Dither


Good to hear you solved the problem.

Seems like I might have possibly "overloaded" the limitations of my online tech support ability, on this one. Wink

Best Regards

JT
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The Watcher

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Re: 1 for the Wave Burner users.
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2006, 12:19:00 PM »

Jerry,

All good my man.  Sorry for dissecting your post like that.  Had a ruff day with a label that I deal with, and vented the wrong way.  Plus I didn't eat lunch till after 6pm so you know how that goes... sigh. lol

I don't disagree with any of you that the state of the music industry and loudness and distortion is in a very perilous place.

Also Brad Thanks for the love as always.  You are secretly my hero.

Matt

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Jus for the record, I usta post under kakaroto, but times, they a changin, big ups to nomad, shotgun, ded4now, skywaidu and all the other from the good ol crypt days.
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