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Author Topic: One thing I don't understand about compressors  (Read 31167 times)

minister

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Re: One thing I don't understand about compressors
« Reply #120 on: April 25, 2006, 08:50:51 PM »

zmix wrote on Tue, 25 April 2006 13:35


This is a pedantic argument. I have not addressed the question becaus it is strictly that.  Have you ever used a compressor without employing makeup gain? It does not have to be automatic makeup gain to operate this way.  
...
Silly arguments about makeup gain prevent you from seeing the forest for the trees. The system transfer function tells all.


It is just how these things work in the real world.
it is not pedantic to ask the question when you have been begging this very question the entire time.

sure, i have used a compressor without ANY make-up gain.  did it yesterday. and i may do it agian tomorrow.  many people could not see this in what you were saying.

it seems as if you view people who don't undertand your point of view as discipuli nostrum bardissimi sunt (our students are stupid).  when in fact, many of them (us) understand compressor counter to how you explain it.  i am trying to understand what you are saying because it goes beyond what i already understand about how a compressor works -- and i know that there are people who have a much better grasp of the technical than i do.  i think that that is true of a lot of other people here.  don't castigate us with aspersions of pedantry when you have not estabished your argument, de dicto, becasue your statements, de re, are counter-intuitive.

so please try to explain to us with out doing so ex cathedra.


(now write that a hundred times or i'll cut your balls off!)

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tom hambleton C.A.S.
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zmix

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Re: One thing I don't understand about compressors
« Reply #121 on: April 25, 2006, 09:06:24 PM »

steve parker wrote on Tue, 25 April 2006 20:11

"do you see gain being added and a rotation point in a system without make-up gain?"Finally the answer is 'no'!Steve.

Rotation point is defined as unity gain (see graph). It is this point which defines compression as different from limiting. Is this really that unclear?

zmix

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Re: One thing I don't understand about compressors
« Reply #122 on: April 25, 2006, 09:10:21 PM »

minister wrote on Tue, 25 April 2006 20:50

zmix wrote on Tue, 25 April 2006 13:35


This is a pedantic argument. I have not addressed the question becaus it is strictly that.  Have you ever used a compressor without employing makeup gain? It does not have to be automatic makeup gain to operate this way.  
...
Silly arguments about makeup gain prevent you from seeing the forest for the trees. The system transfer function tells all.


It is just how these things work in the real world.
it is not pedantic to ask the question when you have been begging this very question the entire time.

sure, i have used a compressor without ANY make-up gain.  did it yesterday. and i may do it agian tomorrow.  many people could not see this in what you were saying.

it seems as if you view people who don't undertand your point of view as discipuli nostrum bardissimi sunt (our students are stupid).  when in fact, many of them (us) understand compressor counter to how you explain it.  i am trying to understand what you are saying because it goes beyond what i already understand about how a compressor works -- and i know that there are people who have a much better grasp of the technical than i do.  i think that that is true of a lot of other people here.  don't castigate us with aspersions of pedantry when you have not estabished your argument, de dicto, becasue your statements, de re, are counter-intuitive.

so please try to explain to us with out doing so ex cathedra.


(now write that a hundred times or i'll cut your balls off!)



Sorry you feel that way. The tone of these inquiries has become accusatory and conspiritorial. I am not 'Refusing" to answer. I feel that I have invested more than enough answering reasonable questions without needing to resort to placating mean respondants.  Good Luck.

minister

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Re: One thing I don't understand about compressors
« Reply #123 on: April 25, 2006, 10:43:08 PM »

chuck, i am not being mean -- and of course aye! rony does not come off well on the internet.  did i call you silly?  or pedantic?  or anything?

re-read the post, you will see it aint mean-spirited.

but it seems to me you have begged the question.  you have assumed make up gain and a rotation point as premises (implicitly) of the argument you are trying to prove.

very few, if any, posters here have understood your point of view and expressed that and even epanded upon it.  am i wrong in that?  has anyone understood this before or since?  yet, when people ask about make up gain, or try to draw you out on it, you call their arguments pedantic and silly.  to me, those are condescending terms. furthermore, i don't believe they are correctly applied.   i am trying to say that from our point of view you have not made your argument and i am asking how this all works.  but i want to say that i don't disagree with you, i just don't understand what you are saying or see that you are answering people when they ask you.

i really did use a compressor without make up gain.  my saying that may simply reveal that i don't understand your explanation.  'cause i don't.  i am wondering if you can 'splain it without telling me i am silly.  or please 'splain the pedantry of the make up gain argument.  because when i look at your graph, it assumes make-up gain.  (the part about increased gain on release i got)

so, yeah, it really is unclear.



(oh, i also asked if it had anything to do with feed-forward or feed-back, or is that totally off base and off topic?)

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tom hambleton C.A.S.
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turtletone

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Re: One thing I don't understand about compressors
« Reply #124 on: April 26, 2006, 12:24:34 AM »

This thread almost ranks right up there with the dither
threads.
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dcollins

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Re: One thing I don't understand about compressors
« Reply #125 on: April 26, 2006, 12:55:50 AM »

TurtleTone wrote on Tue, 25 April 2006 21:24

This thread almost ranks right up there with the dither
threads.


I think Chuck has presented some good information here.

Plus, I'm learning a bit of Latin.

"Illegitimis non carborundum"

Discuss.

DC

dave-G

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Re: One thing I don't understand about compressors
« Reply #126 on: April 26, 2006, 08:38:32 PM »

dcollins wrote on Wed, 26 April 2006 00:55

"Illegitimis non carborundum"

Discuss.


"I will not buy this tobaconists -- it is scratched."

-dave
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bblackwood

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Re: One thing I don't understand about compressors
« Reply #127 on: April 26, 2006, 09:35:54 PM »

"Do you want to come back to my place, bouncy, bouncy?"
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Brad Blackwood
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Ged Leitch

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Re: One thing I don't understand about compressors
« Reply #128 on: April 26, 2006, 10:28:55 PM »

"he's NOT the Messiah....he's a VERY naughty boy!"...
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minister

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Re: One thing I don't understand about compressors
« Reply #129 on: April 26, 2006, 11:17:10 PM »

HAIL THEETHA!

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tom hambleton C.A.S.
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Adam Dempsey

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Re: One thing I don't understand about compressors
« Reply #130 on: April 27, 2006, 12:04:04 AM »

"My hovercraft is full of eels."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

But the title of this thread could be amended to "several things many people misconstrue about compressors"
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zmix

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Re: One thing I don't understand about compressors
« Reply #131 on: April 27, 2006, 01:51:14 AM »

...It's only a model....

dcollins

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Re: One thing I don't understand about compressors
« Reply #132 on: April 27, 2006, 02:49:41 AM »

Biggles: Dear real Princess Margaret, thank you for the eels, full stop. They were absolutely delicious and unmistakably regal, full stop. Sorry to mench but if you've finished with the hairdryer could you pop it in the post. Yours fictionally Biggles, Oh, PS see you at the Saxe-Coburgs' canasta evening. (puts the antlers on) That should puzzle her.

Ronny

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Re: One thing I don't understand about compressors
« Reply #133 on: April 27, 2006, 06:06:02 AM »

This is how I might chart a compression ratio of 20:1, 2:1 and upward expansion at .5:1. I included upward expansion because compressors reduce gain above threshold, not raise gain. A 20:1 ratio reduces gain by -19dB for every +20dB that passes the threshold point. You can look at it going backwards from rotation point to threshold, but the signal is still reduced in gain, not raised in gain, "because the signal is always to the right side of 45 degrees". Even Morgan when he offsets the two ratios on his graph and puts input gain above equity, is showing that at threshold, the signal is reduced in gain. An easy way to show what a compressor does, IMHO and one that is mirrored by every compressor designer on the many compressors and limiters that I own is below.

1. All 3 signals enter the compressor at unity gain (45 degree diagonal line). The red line is there also, it's just covered up by the blue line. This does not signify make up gain, just the signal as it goes through the compressor and just before the make up gain structure, which is not on this chart.

2. The 20:1 line shows that for every +20dB that passes threshold, only 1dB is output "from the compression stage". This is a "gain reduction" of -19dB, not a gain increase of +19dB. When signal rises above threshold, compression is applied, "gain is reduced" NOT raised.

3. The 2:1 line show that for every +20dB that passes threshold, that +10dB leaves the compressor. This is before make up gain. These two lines fall to the "right" of the 45 degree diagonal "unity gain" line, signifing that "signal is reduced in gain from where compression is applied at the threshold". For these 3 examples I've chosen a hard knee as to make it less complicated to understand. Hard knees are not exclusive to "just limiters".

4. The red line signifies that for every half a dB that passes threshold the signal is expanded upwards by 1dB. The line shows gain "because it's on the left side of the 45 degree unity gain line". Signal does not start at the top and go down on my chart, it starts at the bottom left and goes up at unity gain 45 degree diagonal until the threshold is met, where the 20:1 and 2:1 ratios reduce signal and where the upward expansion threshold is met, the signal is raised in gain by 2 to 1, a half dB = 1dB rise in gain. If you follow the lines, they follow the input and output decibal marks on the X-Y graph, showing that the red line is actually showing that when signal is +10dB above threshold, gain is raised to +20dB a .5:1 ratio form input to output "of the compression stage". My compressors typically only output +12dB to +18dB, I couldn't raise gain "after the compression stage", by +19, even if I wanted to.

The upward expansion ratio you can call theoretical if you like and is just there to show where the line has to go to the left of unity gain to show an increase as on the right side of the unity gain line it's signifying reduction. Gain drops on the right side of unity gain on an X-Y graph and rises on the left side of unity gain. I don't really want to side track into expansion as it's mostly used downward, for example a downward expander that lowers gain below threshold and is the reverse of compression.  

This is the way that I was taught when I first started working with compressors and limiters some 35 years or so ago. I haven't changed my view or way of thinking since than and I've never had any problem getting compressors and limiters to do exactly what I want. I threw this together rather quick, if anyone finds a flaw in what I'm relating, I'd be happy to hear it explained in a calmly manner in their own words.

If anyone understands it in a similiar manner as I've just explained, I'd like to hear from you too.

Thanks,


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zmix

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Re: One thing I don't understand about compressors
« Reply #134 on: April 27, 2006, 11:53:21 AM »

Ronny,
Take a close look at your graph. Now imagine what happens to the curves you have added when you set the makeup gain so that unity gain (Vin=Vout) occurs at 0dB, voila these curves are exactly the SAME.... Is this really that confusing?

I asked you to plot how you are actually USING your compression so that these concepts would be crystal clear to you. Would you really use a compressor as indicated on your additional traces - with 19dB of loss upon insertion?? Hell no, so please normalize your graph and try your argument again.

-CZ
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