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Author Topic: Inverted Phase with DAC or ADC??  (Read 6800 times)

present

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Re: Inverted Phase with DAC or ADC??
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2006, 11:21:52 am »

Masterer wrote on Sat, 02 December 2006 16:53

present wrote on Sat, 02 December 2006 10:13


..... You have no control over end users' setups.




A good candidate for The Official Mastering Engineers Epitaph.


Laughing Yeah!


...uh...


Hey!


regards
Rogier
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Phil Demetro

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Re: Inverted Phase with DAC or ADC??
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2006, 11:53:07 am »

Andy Krehm wrote on Sat, 02 December 2006 10:49

Phil Demetro wrote on Fri, 01 December 2006 23:40

Masterer wrote on Fri, 01 December 2006 21:13


Feels like it's pullin' when it should be pushin' when the phase is "out"



I recently won a shootout with a local ME cause his "peaks" were inverted. I guess the producer lined 'em all up in his Protools and noticed it visually first....

'course mine sounded better anyway!

Phil


I've only lost one local shoot-out in the last year (and that was due to the label's decision, not the producer) so it probably wasn't me! (LOL)

But if it was me, would you have let me know about the waveform problem?


It was with 3 other local ME's...all guys you know. You definitely would have known if you were in it 'cause the producer was quite open to everyone about it. He called everyone back, too. He told me he found the whole thing "educational". So did I, actually.

Andy, I know that you are on here a lot so I would never post a bravado comment like "I won over so and so" if it was you. I know that you might read that. This is not my style at all.

I'm very passive -aggressive so tongue-in-cheek humour is more my style. But my track did sound better! Wink-wink nudge-nudge.

Talk about being putting me on the spot for your second comment.
This gets me thinking now... because I didn't call the other ME about his problem. Was I wrong not to do so? Maybe I should have? I'll have to be honest here and say that I remember not caring that much about it. Because I've really started to focus on "me" more and what "I'm" doing.
I really like what I'm doing lately and that's probably because of me foscing on me.

Basically my only rule in calling others is -  if there is stolen gear floating around locally, or if a client who didn't pay his bill here was calling other studios to pull the same trick. Believe me, I would call you and others in cases like this.

As for the peak inversion...I've spent that last 6 years making every mistake (some things more than once) , f*****g everything up imaginable (some more than twice)!

But ...

I figured out the whole pin2/3 thing long ago - on several 1630 real time transfers - a huge waste of time!
Ed Littman's case is excuseable because he started over completely from scratch from what i can tell...normal everyday stuff. He'll find the problem.
The other studio in Toronto has several ME's, and an in-house tech or two -  so I don't feel obliged to help out there. Seems lazy to me... or just an oversight.
It's no doubt fixed now.
Hmmm. or maybe not?

I'm still wondering if I should have called now.
Would you have called?

phil


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Phil Demetro
Mastering at The Lacquer Channel, Toronto
http://www.lacquerchannel.com/phil-demetro/
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Andy Krehm

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Re: Inverted Phase with DAC or ADC??
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2006, 05:13:15 pm »

Phil Demetro wrote on Sat, 02 December 2006 11:53

Andy Krehm wrote on Sat, 02 December 2006 10:49

Phil Demetro wrote on Fri, 01 December 2006 23:40

Masterer wrote on Fri, 01 December 2006 21:13


Feels like it's pullin' when it should be pushin' when the phase is "out"



I recently won a shootout with a local ME cause his "peaks" were inverted. I guess the producer lined 'em all up in his Protools and noticed it visually first....

'course mine sounded better anyway!

Phil


I've only lost one local shoot-out in the last year (and that was due to the label's decision, not the producer) so it probably wasn't me! (LOL)

But if it was me, would you have let me know about the waveform problem?


It was with 3 other local ME's...all guys you know. You definitely would have known if you were in it 'cause the producer was quite open to everyone about it. He called everyone back, too. He told me he found the whole thing "educational". So did I, actually.

Andy, I know that you are on here a lot so I would never post a bravado comment like "I won over so and so" if it was you. I know that you might read that. This is not my style at all.

I'm very passive -aggressive so tongue-in-cheek humour is more my style. But my track did sound better! Wink-wink nudge-nudge.

Talk about being putting me on the spot for your second comment.
This gets me thinking now... because I didn't call the other ME about his problem. Was I wrong not to do so? Maybe I should have? I'll have to be honest here and say that I remember not caring that much about it. Because I've really started to focus on "me" more and what "I'm" doing.
I really like what I'm doing lately and that's probably because of me foscing on me.

Basically my only rule in calling others is -  if there is stolen gear floating around locally, or if a client who didn't pay his bill here was calling other studios to pull the same trick. Believe me, I would call you and others in cases like this.

As for the peak inversion...I've spent that last 6 years making every mistake (some things more than once) , f*****g everything up imaginable (some more than twice)!

But ...

I figured out the whole pin2/3 thing long ago - on several 1630 real time transfers - a huge waste of time!
Ed Littman's case is excuseable because he started over completely from scratch from what i can tell...normal everyday stuff. He'll find the problem.
The other studio in Toronto has several ME's, and an in-house tech or two -  so I don't feel obliged to help out there. Seems lazy to me... or just an oversight.
It's no doubt fixed now.
Hmmm. or maybe not?

I'm still wondering if I should have called now.
Would you have called?

phil




Well, I know we both compete in the same market place but b/c we hang out on the same web boards, and do the odd PM, I think of you also as a colleague and so probably would have let you know if I spotted a technical problem like that.

But the other guy? Not likely. Politically one could cause problems b/c engineers don't like to be criticized and might even question the motivation for calling. Mastering engineers put each other down enough without giving anyone extra ammunition like "...that AH called me to tell me my gear was screwed up".


Phil Demetro

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Re: Inverted Phase with DAC or ADC??
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2006, 05:28:17 pm »

Andy Krehm wrote on Sat, 02 December 2006 17:13

Phil Demetro wrote on Sat, 02 December 2006 11:53

Andy Krehm wrote on Sat, 02 December 2006 10:49

Phil Demetro wrote on Fri, 01 December 2006 23:40

Masterer wrote on Fri, 01 December 2006 21:13


Feels like it's pullin' when it should be pushin' when the phase is "out"



I recently won a shootout with a local ME cause his "peaks" were inverted. I guess the producer lined 'em all up in his Protools and noticed it visually first....

'course mine sounded better anyway!

Phil


I've only lost one local shoot-out in the last year (and that was due to the label's decision, not the producer) so it probably wasn't me! (LOL)

But if it was me, would you have let me know about the waveform problem?


It was with 3 other local ME's...all guys you know. You definitely would have known if you were in it 'cause the producer was quite open to everyone about it. He called everyone back, too. He told me he found the whole thing "educational". So did I, actually.

Andy, I know that you are on here a lot so I would never post a bravado comment like "I won over so and so" if it was you. I know that you might read that. This is not my style at all.

I'm very passive -aggressive so tongue-in-cheek humour is more my style. But my track did sound better! Wink-wink nudge-nudge.

Talk about being putting me on the spot for your second comment.
This gets me thinking now... because I didn't call the other ME about his problem. Was I wrong not to do so? Maybe I should have? I'll have to be honest here and say that I remember not caring that much about it. Because I've really started to focus on "me" more and what "I'm" doing.
I really like what I'm doing lately and that's probably because of me foscing on me.

Basically my only rule in calling others is -  if there is stolen gear floating around locally, or if a client who didn't pay his bill here was calling other studios to pull the same trick. Believe me, I would call you and others in cases like this.

As for the peak inversion...I've spent that last 6 years making every mistake (some things more than once) , f*****g everything up imaginable (some more than twice)!

But ...

I figured out the whole pin2/3 thing long ago - on several 1630 real time transfers - a huge waste of time!
Ed Littman's case is excuseable because he started over completely from scratch from what i can tell...normal everyday stuff. He'll find the problem.
The other studio in Toronto has several ME's, and an in-house tech or two -  so I don't feel obliged to help out there. Seems lazy to me... or just an oversight.
It's no doubt fixed now.
Hmmm. or maybe not?

I'm still wondering if I should have called now.
Would you have called?

phil




Well, I know we both compete in the same market place but b/c we hang out on the same web boards, and do the odd PM, I think of you also as a colleague and so probably would have let you know if I spotted a technical problem like that.

But the other guy? Not likely. Politically one could cause problems b/c engineers don't like to be criticized and might even question the motivation for calling. Mastering engineers put each other down enough without giving anyone extra ammunition like "...that AH called me to tell me my gear was screwed up".





Man, alright... talk about putting me to shame...
We're "colleagues" now. Expect a phone call from me sooner or later (now see what you've done?) Very Happy

phil
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Phil Demetro
Mastering at The Lacquer Channel, Toronto
http://www.lacquerchannel.com/phil-demetro/
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Andy Krehm

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Re: Inverted Phase with DAC or ADC??
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2006, 05:35:39 pm »

Phil Demetro wrote on Sat, 02 December 2006 17:28

Andy Krehm wrote on Sat, 02 December 2006 17:13

Phil Demetro wrote on Sat, 02 December 2006 11:53

Andy Krehm wrote on Sat, 02 December 2006 10:49

Phil Demetro wrote on Fri, 01 December 2006 23:40

Masterer wrote on Fri, 01 December 2006 21:13


Feels like it's pullin' when it should be pushin' when the phase is "out"



I recently won a shootout with a local ME cause his "peaks" were inverted. I guess the producer lined 'em all up in his Protools and noticed it visually first....

'course mine sounded better anyway!

Phil


I've only lost one local shoot-out in the last year (and that was due to the label's decision, not the producer) so it probably wasn't me! (LOL)

But if it was me, would you have let me know about the waveform problem?


It was with 3 other local ME's...all guys you know. You definitely would have known if you were in it 'cause the producer was quite open to everyone about it. He called everyone back, too. He told me he found the whole thing "educational". So did I, actually.

Andy, I know that you are on here a lot so I would never post a bravado comment like "I won over so and so" if it was you. I know that you might read that. This is not my style at all.

I'm very passive -aggressive so tongue-in-cheek humour is more my style. But my track did sound better! Wink-wink nudge-nudge.

Talk about being putting me on the spot for your second comment.
This gets me thinking now... because I didn't call the other ME about his problem. Was I wrong not to do so? Maybe I should have? I'll have to be honest here and say that I remember not caring that much about it. Because I've really started to focus on "me" more and what "I'm" doing.
I really like what I'm doing lately and that's probably because of me foscing on me.

Basically my only rule in calling others is -  if there is stolen gear floating around locally, or if a client who didn't pay his bill here was calling other studios to pull the same trick. Believe me, I would call you and others in cases like this.

As for the peak inversion...I've spent that last 6 years making every mistake (some things more than once) , f*****g everything up imaginable (some more than twice)!

But ...

I figured out the whole pin2/3 thing long ago - on several 1630 real time transfers - a huge waste of time!
Ed Littman's case is excuseable because he started over completely from scratch from what i can tell...normal everyday stuff. He'll find the problem.
The other studio in Toronto has several ME's, and an in-house tech or two -  so I don't feel obliged to help out there. Seems lazy to me... or just an oversight.
It's no doubt fixed now.
Hmmm. or maybe not?

I'm still wondering if I should have called now.
Would you have called?

phil




Well, I know we both compete in the same market place but b/c we hang out on the same web boards, and do the odd PM, I think of you also as a colleague and so probably would have let you know if I spotted a technical problem like that.

But the other guy? Not likely. Politically one could cause problems b/c engineers don't like to be criticized and might even question the motivation for calling. Mastering engineers put each other down enough without giving anyone extra ammunition like "...that AH called me to tell me my gear was screwed up".





Man, alright... talk about putting me to shame...
We're "colleagues" now. Expect a phone call from me sooner or later (now see what you've done?) Very Happy

phil


Never mind, enough of this "colleague stuff"! Are you ready to go head to head on the next shoot-out?
Laughing

Phil Demetro

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Re: Inverted Phase with DAC or ADC??
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2006, 06:02:00 pm »

Andy Krehm wrote on Sat, 02 December 2006 17:35



Never mind, enough of this "colleague stuff"! Are you ready to go head to head on the next shoot-out?
Laughing


As long as I'm getting paid for it I'm up for anything!

Actually, having Noah Mintz and George Graves around on a daily basis is great in that there is a -huge- wealth of opinions, resources, and techniques to go over. I'm lucky. It's almost silly trying to sort all the stuff out. We constantly burst in on each others sessions with something different to try or some new trick to blow each other away. I can't think of too many places where that happens. Very old school (George is in his early 60's) and new school stuff (me and Noah are in our late teens). We compare music frequently and there's always something that will open your eyes. The stuff is always good so it really comes down to personal taste. It's amazing how different the same song can sound. 'Course my tracks always sound best. Shocked

At the same time and for the same reasons -  problems get solved very quickly, as well.

phil
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Phil Demetro
Mastering at The Lacquer Channel, Toronto
http://www.lacquerchannel.com/phil-demetro/
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Gold

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Re: Inverted Phase with DAC or ADC??
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2006, 06:58:51 pm »

TurtleTone wrote on Sat, 02 December 2006 09:43

This reminds me of a session I did many many years ago with Rob Fraboni.


That reminds me of a session I did with him. He spent a lot of time on mic palcement and drum tuning. I don't think there was the budget for full mania. He was loath to touch an EQ. In the middle of a take the snare drum went out of tune. I didn't notice. He let the take finish and retuned. The drums sounded much better. It was one of those ahaa moments.
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michal @ mytek

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Re: Inverted Phase with DAC or ADC??
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2007, 01:15:30 am »

Ed Littman wrote on Fri, 01 December 2006 03:34

I just recently re- wired my whole mastering desk to install a Crookwod analog router. After a couple of days of getting the patches all worked out with Crispin I got back to work….it’s a great unit.

Today, by chance I found that my captured  files are %100 out of phase from input. My first thought was that it’s the router, so I pulled it & all the gear & just plugged my Mytek DAC strait in to my  Hedd ADC.
I recorded a few tests & both analog/digital captures were still  flipped. The router & analog gear are innocent. I also checked a project before I rewired & all was OK as it should be.

Is my problem the ADC or DAC feeding it? I double checked my connections & sound cards. even if they were wrong the problem would be L/R issues not polarity. What could I have done to  create my capture to be upside down??

I wanted to get some feed back before contacting Dave or Michal

Thanks,
Ed



Hi Ed

I'm positive neither the 8X96ADC nor DAC invert phase. They are designed not to invert.

My guess me that I'd test it old fashion way- first Mytek ADC>DAC only - if it's inverted- check wiring and patchbay. And if it's ok than just add another pieces one by one while checking their wiring until you find it.

Happy New Year

Michal at www.mytekdigital.com
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Sonovo

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Re: Inverted Phase with DAC or ADC??
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2007, 08:03:39 pm »

Hi Ed,

I believe I read somewhere in the thread that you had removed the Crookwood from the chain. If so, please disregard the rest of my post.

While I love my iMon (and everyone should have one! Well, except Chris, he's got that custom made Muth stuff in his room  Razz), I belive Crispin outsources the cabling to a subcontractor.

When I received mine, I spent a quite a few hours the first few weeks tracking down silly problems (With all inserts active strange things happened, depending on the order inserted I got a phase reversal on either the M or S channel, among other things).

It turns out that there were several problems with the breakout cables and how they were wired. When we got that sorted out, everything worked perfectly since.

In fairness, Crispin provided support way above and beyond what I would expect from most manufacturers, and really worked to help us locate and correct all issues as quickly as possible.

Cheers,
Thor
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Ed Littman

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Re: Inverted Phase with DAC or ADC??
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2007, 10:12:00 pm »

Thor Legvold wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 20:03

Hi When I received mine, I spent a quite a few hours the first few weeks tracking down silly problems (With all inserts active strange things happened, depending on the order inserted I got a phase reversal on either the M or S channel, among other things).

It turns out that there were several problems with the breakout cables and how they were wired. When we got that sorted out, everything worked perfectly since.

In fairness, Crispin provided support way above and beyond what I would expect from most manufacturers, and really worked to help us locate and correct all issues as quickly as possible.

Cheers,
Thor



Yes, thats what it was ....a swithced wire in the breakout cable.
The first thing i did was pull the crookwood out, but i still had some issues that were intermittent (all phase related)thats why I did not think it was the crookwood....very confusing.
so I pulled out all my cabling & reorganised/repatched. doing this allowed consistant results that led me to the breakout cable.
Now I'm right side up Very Happy

Ed
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Inverted Phase with DAC or ADC??
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2007, 10:32:51 am »

Ed Littman wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 21:12

Yes, thats what it was ....a swithced wire in the breakout cable.
The first thing i did was pull the crookwood out, but i still had some issues that were intermittent (all phase related)thats why I did not think it was the crookwood....very confusing.
so I pulled out all my cabling & reorganised/repatched. doing this allowed consistant results that led me to the breakout cable.
Now I'm right side up Very Happy


Ed, glad to hear you got it sorted out.

So the guilty dog was a third party cable with poor QC(?)

Good to know it wasn't inside the Crookwood.

These problems can be maddening, and take waaay too much time away from our work.

Cheers -JT
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Terra Nova Mastering
Celebrating 20 years of Mastering!
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