Topic: One more question about the "documentary recording" philosophy (Read 14857 times)

electrical · « **Reply #45 on:** March 13, 2006, 12:50:21 PM »

Ron Steele wrote on Mon, 13 March 2006 10:43

It seems to me that if this is such a huge problem, times would have changed by now...

Look around. This conversation wasn't being conducted twenty years ago. There weren't then the large numbers of peer-operated studios that there are now. Of course times have changed. Thank heavens for that.

Ron Steele · « **Reply #46 on:** March 13, 2006, 11:13:39 PM »

electrical wrote on Mon, 13 March 2006 12:50

Ron Steele wrote on Mon, 13 March 2006 10:43

It seems to me that if this is such a huge problem, times would have changed by now...

Look around. This conversation wasn't being conducted twenty years ago. There weren't then the large numbers of peer-operated studios that there are now. Of course times have changed. Thank heavens for that.

Correct, the dx7, emulator, fairlight, synclavier, adat, roland, cubase, o2r, logic, protools etc..etc... paved the way to make it possible for the peer-operated studios
to even exist.

It's hard to imagine where most would be with out this shit. The peer-operated studios only exist because of it. The price of admission is what a used japanese car cost.

Times have changed, some followed and adapted, some tried to, failed and have just gone away.

Of course now it's just an analog versus digital discussion now that we have concluded there is no longer a serious engineer dictatorship that exists due to the peer-operated studios .

I can't wait to see the day we all become obsolete, when the band or artist can completely fulfill his vision with out any plumbing assistance at all.

I can't wait to hear it.

Bobro · « **Reply #47 on:** March 14, 2006, 03:34:43 AM »

Ron Steele wrote on Tue, 14 March 2006 04:13

electrical wrote on Mon, 13 March 2006 12:50

Ron Steele wrote on Mon, 13 March 2006 10:43

It seems to me that if this is such a huge problem, times would have changed by now...

Look around. This conversation wasn't being conducted twenty years ago. There weren't then the large numbers of peer-operated studios that there are now. Of course times have changed. Thank heavens for that.

Correct, the dx7, emulator, fairlight, synclavier, adat, roland, cubase, o2r, logic, protools etc..etc... paved the way to make it possible for the peer-operated studios
to even exist.

It's hard to imagine where most would be with out this shit. The peer-operated studios only exist because of it. The price of admission is what a used japanese car cost.

......

.

IMO Ebay and internet communication paved the way for "peer-based" studios far more than the gear you mention. And the 4-track cassette. And before that, the 1/4" four-track reel-to-reel, and so on.

And these things are only the physical manifestations of what really "paved the way", which is attitudes. And those attitudes are probably better addressed in, for example, the Sex Pistols thread.

-Bobro

maxim · « **Reply #48 on:** March 14, 2006, 03:47:40 AM »

ron wrote:

"... the dx7, emulator, fairlight, synclavier, adat, roland, cubase, o2r, logic, protools etc..etc... "

3 out 10 ain't bad

Ron Steele · « **Reply #49 on:** March 14, 2006, 07:52:23 AM »

Bobro wrote on Tue, 14 March 2006 03:34

Ron Steele wrote on Tue, 14 March 2006 04:13

electrical wrote on Mon, 13 March 2006 12:50

Ron Steele wrote on Mon, 13 March 2006 10:43

It seems to me that if this is such a huge problem, times would have changed by now...

Look around. This conversation wasn't being conducted twenty years ago. There weren't then the large numbers of peer-operated studios that there are now. Of course times have changed. Thank heavens for that.

Correct, the dx7, emulator, fairlight, synclavier, adat, roland, cubase, o2r, logic, protools etc..etc... paved the way to make it possible for the peer-operated studios
to even exist.

It's hard to imagine where most would be with out this shit. The peer-operated studios only exist because of it. The price of admission is what a used japanese car cost.

......

.

IMO Ebay and internet communication paved the way for "peer-based" studios far more than the gear you mention. And the 4-track cassette. And before that, the 1/4" four-track reel-to-reel, and so on.

And these things are only the physical manifestations of what really "paved the way", which is attitudes. And those attitudes are probably better addressed in, for example, the Sex Pistols thread.

-Bobro

I missed mentioning a bunch of others. Sorry....... but that was really not the point.

" Attitudes", that manifested because of any gear, had nothing to do with the sex pistols, which came well before the cassette 4trk. I don't really recall anything about the sex pistols trying to self-record themselves or even giving a shit about it.

The "peer-based" " attitudes or the sex pistols have nothing in common. Two completely different attitudes.

I'd be hard pressed to believe the sex pistols have anything to do with the reason why pro, pro-sumer or home studios exist today. That's just taking it back to all that "who's more important" bullshit.

acorec · « **Reply #50 on:** March 14, 2006, 08:11:42 AM »

Ron Steele said:

"....Quite honestly, if the "engineer as dictator" messed up things for so many for so long, why do bands still seek out engineers and studios?..."

Bands end up seeking out a producer. It is the producer's job to shape the band into a cohesive unit that works.

Slipperman · « **Reply #51 on:** March 14, 2006, 02:15:50 PM »

acorec wrote on Tue, 14 March 2006 08:11

Bands end up seeking out a producer. It is the producer's job to shape the band into a cohesive unit that works.

Whose zooming who here?

A bunch of people get together and work on a record. Ya almost never see a record completed without some change on the totem pole along the way if you look closely enough.

Some people here are acting like a fucking JOB TITLE is gonna dictate what goes down.

HOHOHO x 6 zillion.

As if.

Shit can happen 60 ways to Sunday.

And does. All the fucking time.

Period.

I've seen the fucking DRUMMER take over and run the show.

Glad he did.

He had the best vision for the thing... and after a while this became increasingly apparent. And eventually everybody pretty much got the fuck out of his way.

Bless his pointy head. Got a platinum record for it.

BTW. It was the bands FIRST RECORD.

Let's face it fellaz: During the course of making a record... some people STEP UP... and some SIT DOWN.

Which camp are you going to be in? It's your decision. And you should feel perfectly comfortable with what you're willing to lay out there.

2 things happen when you ascend to the podium.

1.) You get to project your dulcet tones over the unwashed rabble.

2.) You make the best target in the room.

No way to separate risk from opportunity.

Pick your battles, stand your ground when ya gotta... and try to put your love of music and yer best intentions for the record first.

SM.

PS. As to "acorec's" earlier post.... Your theory is malarkey. MANY, MANY rock bands are DEFINED by their first record, and though they may make better sounding records as their careers, budgets and choices of who to work with, blossom(erm.... big surprise there). A ton of them never match the "vibe" they got with the awkward and haphazard production(or lack there of) arrangement of their freshman offering. The list is GIGANTIC.

maxim · « **Reply #52 on:** March 14, 2006, 06:44:54 PM »

slippy wrote:

"A ton of them never match the "vibe" they got with the awkward and haphazard production(or lack there of) arrangement of their freshman offering."

interesting phenomenon

i wonder why

Slipperman · « **Reply #53 on:** March 15, 2006, 01:39:27 AM »

maxim wrote on Tue, 14 March 2006 18:44

slippy wrote:

"A ton of them never match the "vibe" they got with the awkward and haphazard production(or lack there of) arrangement of their freshman offering."

interesting phenomenon

i wonder why

Parity.

And purity of purpose.

In all the concerned parties.

The parade starts later.

SM.

jimmyjazz · « **Reply #54 on:** March 15, 2006, 02:06:45 AM »

There's also that little issue of "a lifetime to write your first record, a year to write your second". Hooks become production bullshit, etc. . . . we all know the drill.

Bobro · « **Reply #55 on:** March 15, 2006, 03:40:47 AM »

woops, see below

maxim · « **Reply #56 on:** March 15, 2006, 03:42:36 AM »

jimmyjazz wrote:

"a lifetime to write your first record..."

i think there's definitely something to that

plus the unfakeable enthusiasm when you first explore a medium

Bobro · « **Reply #57 on:** March 15, 2006, 03:56:04 AM »

Quote:

title=Ron Steele wrote on Tue, 14 March 2006 12:52
....

(Bobro wrote:
IMO Ebay and internet communication paved the way for "peer-based" studios far more than the gear you mention. And the 4-track cassette. And before that, the 1/4" four-track reel-to-reel, and so on.

And these things are only the physical manifestations of what really "paved the way", which is attitudes. And those attitudes are probably better addressed in, for example, the Sex Pistols thread.

-Bobro )

I missed mentioning a bunch of others. Sorry....... but that was really not the point.

" Attitudes", that manifested because of any gear, had nothing to do with the sex pistols, which came well before the cassette 4trk. I don't really recall anything about the sex pistols trying to self-record themselves or even giving a shit about it.

The "peer-based" " attitudes or the sex pistols have nothing in common. Two completely different attitudes.

I'd be hard pressed to believe the sex pistols have anything to do with the reason why pro, pro-sumer or home studios exist today. That's just taking it back to all that "who's more important" bullshit.

Two teenage kids go to their first recording gig, cash in hand from working manual labor all summer. This is about 21 years ago. They've been listening to the Stooges, the Stranglers, and Joy Division, and have a fair dose of Eastern European music thrown in (bass lines ripped off from Mussorgski etc.) having grown up with it. Not directly inspired by the Sex Pistols per se, but, same idea, who cares who is more important than whom? that depends on the individual.

Anyway, the engineer is a big guy with a Steely Dan t-shirt and a "schlong" haircut, long in back and short on top. One earing, smoking pot. Try to get started and the guy starts freaking out for no apparent reason, going on about "real music" like James Taylor or something, and some craziness about the hour the session was supposed to start.

The kids stand there with their mouths hanging open, having sat excitedly in the car for half and hour, being early and all for their first ever "real" recording session. They say "fuck you, man!" after recovering from shock, and split.

If I recall correctly, my brother had bought a four-track by the end of the week, the kids being he and I.

You have a hard time believing in....reality?

-Bobro

PS. I'm going to send this thread to an old friend, a fine musician and sound guy these days, who got his first 4-track via the inspirational lineage of Sex Pistols/Wire/Big Black. Come to think about it, there's another old friend with a studio who'd be more Stooges/Bauhaus/Cure... hell man we could barely shave and we were fully aware, and enthused, about having "DIY" idols who didn't give us speeches about how the drummer from the Dixie Dregs was the greatest musician on earth, etc. And who cares if some of those bands were "manufactured" or whatever, the attitudes lived on as reality for lots of people.

Ron Steele · « **Reply #58 on:** March 15, 2006, 09:02:12 AM »

Bobro wrote on Wed, 15 March 2006 03:56

Quote:

title=Ron Steele wrote on Tue, 14 March 2006 12:52
....

(Bobro wrote:
IMO Ebay and internet communication paved the way for "peer-based" studios far more than the gear you mention. And the 4-track cassette. And before that, the 1/4" four-track reel-to-reel, and so on.

And these things are only the physical manifestations of what really "paved the way", which is attitudes. And those attitudes are probably better addressed in, for example, the Sex Pistols thread.

-Bobro )

I missed mentioning a bunch of others. Sorry....... but that was really not the point.

" Attitudes", that manifested because of any gear, had nothing to do with the sex pistols, which came well before the cassette 4trk. I don't really recall anything about the sex pistols trying to self-record themselves or even giving a shit about it.

The "peer-based" " attitudes or the sex pistols have nothing in common. Two completely different attitudes.

I'd be hard pressed to believe the sex pistols have anything to do with the reason why pro, pro-sumer or home studios exist today. That's just taking it back to all that "who's more important" bullshit.

Two teenage kids go to their first recording gig, cash in hand from working manual labor all summer. This is about 21 years ago. They've been listening to the Stooges, the Stranglers, and Joy Division, and have a fair dose of Eastern European music thrown in (bass lines ripped off from Mussorgski etc.) having grown up with it. Not directly inspired by the Sex Pistols per se, but, same idea, who cares who is more important than whom? that depends on the individual.

Anyway, the engineer is a big guy with a Steely Dan t-shirt and a "schlong" haircut, long in back and short on top. One earing, smoking pot. Try to get started and the guy starts freaking out for no apparent reason, going on about "real music" like James Taylor or something, and some craziness about the hour the session was supposed to start.

The kids stand there with their mouths hanging open, having sat excitedly in the car for half and hour, being early and all for their first ever "real" recording session. They say "fuck you, man!" after recovering from shock, and split.

If I recall correctly, my brother had bought a four-track by the end of the week, the kids being he and I.

You have a hard time believing in....reality?

-Bobro

PS. I'm going to send this thread to an old friend, a fine musician and sound guy these days, who got his first 4-track via the inspirational lineage of Sex Pistols/Wire/Big Black. Come to think about it, there's another old friend with a studio who'd be more Stooges/Bauhaus/Cure... hell man we could barely shave and we were fully aware, and enthused, about having "DIY" idols who didn't give us speeches about how the drummer from the Dixie Dregs was the greatest musician on earth, etc. And who cares if some of those bands were "manufactured" or whatever, the attitudes lived on as reality for lots of people.

So you bought a 4trk because you met an AE who was a stoned asshole?

What the hell does that have to do with the Sex Pistols/Wire/Big Black.

I get the part that you wanted to record after saving up, but after meeting the guy, you made the broad assumption that all AE's and studios were going to be jag-offs like that dude?

The fact is, you could of been into steely dan and ran into AE that was into punk
that might of told you they sucked and were "manufactured".

You would have then gone out to buy a 4trk for the same reason.

If anything, you owe that jag-off a big thank you, if he wasn't a prick you might not have bought a 4trk. where would you be today without that experience?

Bobro · « **Reply #59 on:** March 18, 2006, 04:48:27 AM »