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[JGreenslade]

As a proud Englishman, I must confess that when it comes to "Punk", I actually prefer the product from...

















...New York (Ramones, Dolls, Cramps, etc etc)

edit: And I should add that - if you find yourself in London in the next week or two - there is a "celebration" of all things punk at the rather apt venue of Selfridges... Mclaren has released specially printed t-shirts for the occasion, and you can be an authentic punk if you hand over the required five-hundred smackers for one... http://www.timeout.com/london/features/165.html


Justin

[kraster]

groucho wrote on Thu, 23 March 2006 03:28

Quote: England wasn't a fun place to be in the late 70s. By its nature punk was underground, no big record sales but it was influential. And a lot of punks were indeed more preoccupied with a tube of UHU than their guitars. Permit me to point out the obvious, but there is a great deal more to "punk" than what happened in the UK in the late 70s. Limiting your view of the genre to only that one time and place is kinda like discussing blues, and ONLY talking about the artists in the Mississippi delta during the 30s, while ignoring every other phase of the music's development (& subsequent influence). Or, for that matter, discussing Rock and only referencing what was happening at Sun Studios in the mid-50s. The Pistols and what happened in the UK was a big spark for many, and the repercussions of that (and what was happening in the States BEFORE that) have been being felt for decades now.

The thread is talking about why Lydon rejected the hall of fame invitation and whether the Sex Pistols deserved a place there.
The movement in England was brought about because of circumstances that were exclusive to the UK. The Sex Pistols dealt directly with the problems of the UK. Of course, there is a lot more to punk than the late seventies english scene. But since it's Lydon and the pistols we're talking about it seems relevant to talk about the UK punks.

[James Perrett]

Every movement builds on what went before and punk was no different. Bands that sounded like the Sex Pistols had gone before and their records didn't sound particularly innovative. It was the look and the attitudes that went with the music that were just as important as the music - and that set it apart from much of the mainstream 70's music. It also paved the way for the more glamorous early 80's music which continued the idea that fashion and attitude went hand in hand with music.

Whenever I've spoken to members of some of the 70's punk bands they always say that they never consciously formed as a punk band - they were just playing straightforward rock and roll. Yes - some of the later bands were consciously formed as punk bands but not the early bands. I'm sure that The Beatles, the Stones, Velvet Underground, Iggy Pop, garage bands and the New York Dolls were influences on the first bands.

In my view, real punk music was only made in the late 70's. It was very much of its time when things were really messed up in the UK. Punk rapidly became safe in the 80's with just a few bands on the margins still trying to push the boundaries. Yes, there were bands influenced by punk who emerged in the 80's but they weren't really part of the real punk movement.

Of course, this is just my view as a suburban kid on the fringes of punk in the early 80's who was at an impressionable age. The UK music fashions were moving very rapidly - much more rapidly than in the US - and it was exciting to be involved.

Cheers

James.

[Ronny]

groucho wrote on Wed, 22 March 2006 02:06

Quote: Elvis was a much bigger shock to the establishment than the SP's were, much, much bigger and lasted a shitpile longer You continue to argue against statements that no one has made. "Elvis was a bigger shock than the Pistols." I hate to tell ya bud, but that's not exactly a hugely revolutionary statement. It's kinda blindingly obvious. The real question, is: who do you think has said otherwise? Who the hell are you arguing with?

I'm not arguing, I was repeating and confirming a statement made by someone else about Elvis, as I was around back than. You weren't that's quite clear by your lack of knowledge in rock and roll history. You are not qualified to speak for the history of rock and roll, because it's much older than you.  

Quote:

It's kinda like saying: "the internet wasn't a big invention... when *I* was a kid, someone invented television..." Yes Ronny, there are MANY innovators. The Pistols were not the ONLY innovative force in Rock. Um, again: who said otherwise?

No one, as I mentioned I'm not arguing, I am merely stating facts to try to clue you in, but with your attitude and lack of wanting to learn, I can see that it's hopeless.

Quote:

And this idea that anyone who understands the importance and influence of punk must be very young (and must also know nothing about the REST of music history)... well, you just make yourself look even sillier with that line.

Where did you get that I had this idea? I don't even know what you are talking about. Are you confusing my posts with someone elses. Please point me to the line that I said that anyone who understands the importance and influence of punk must be very young (and must also know nothing about the REST of music history). You are the one that is trying to put words in someone else's mouth. Look I don't care if you are offended just because some people don't like the SP's, that's no reason to make up bullshit just for you to insult me.

Quote:

Especially given WHERE we are having this discussion... How do people this clueless get jobs in the music industry? Chris

Man, have you got a lot to learn. Do you really think that you are the expert punk and that I'm too clueless to get a job in the audio industry. Never mind, you just aren't qualified enough to answer that question, so I'll tell you. I got my first reel to reel in 1961, I opened my first commercial studio in 1970, I've been here at the present RoMo Recording building since 1975 for 31 years. I opened my mastering room in 1993. My present studio has been here longer than punk has been around and before the Sex Pistols were out of high school. One more thing, understanding punk to what you lugubriously feel is needed to record a punk band is what I call clueless and the most ridiculous statement that I've seen on this thread. Do you really think that an engineer understands every fucking band that comes through the door and their genre too?    

[groucho]

Quote:

You weren't that's quite clear by your lack of knowledge in rock and roll history.

Example? I've clearly stated what I believe to be your historical shortcomings: ignorance of punk's importance; massively confused readings on contemporary country music; making very obvious statements about Elvis's influence and thinking they are shocking and contraversial.

So, what exactly betrays my "lack of knowledge of rock history"? Really. Go for it!  

Quote:

You are not qualified to speak for the history of rock and roll, because it's much older than you.

Ah, I see. So, given that the era of music I probably know the most about is late 40s R&B /jump blues - which eventually evolved into rock and roll... let's see, what does that tell you about my age?

Come to think of it, why do you keep bringing up age? What does that have to do with knowledge?

As you have so amply proved: nothing.

Quote:

I am merely stating facts to try to clue you in, but with your attitude and lack of wanting to learn

This gets funnier and funnier. No, you're correct, Ronny. I don't want to learn from you. Your comments have repeatedly proven you to have absolutely nothing to teach on the subject at hand.

Some of the guys who've written the most movingly about punk music (Greil Marcus, Mikal Gilmore, Dave Marsh) are nearing (or have passed) their 60s. Some of the guys I know who know the most about obscure prewar blues harmonica players are enthusiastic students in their 20s.

Do you get that your age gives you no credentials whatsoever?

Quote:

Do you really think that an engineer understands every fucking band that comes through the door and their genre too?

Oh wait, I thought you "know punk". Which is it?

But yeah, at the very least I would want an engineer recording a punk band to not think of them as no-talent glue-sniffing musical illiterates. However I'm sure, Ronny, that you are a fairly representative example of the type of engineer who drove punks to start recording themselves.

Chris

[maxim]

ronny wrote:

"You are not qualified to speak for the history of rock and roll, because it's much older than you."

another non-sequitur

[Ronny]

I come to these newsgroups to enjoy myself, exchange knowledge and to help people out with things that I've already done before. I calls em like I sees em when it comes to audio. I'm human I make some mistakes, not afraid to admit or correct myself when someone shows me that I'm off base. However, I have no interest in dickering back and forth with you groucho over  punk rock or Lydon or the SP's. Let's just say that you won this argument that you are talking about.

James put it in a nutshell on his last post, my observations of the punk rock era and it's influence and how punk rock was influenced, there really isn't anything else that I can add.

Thanks for the converstion folks.

[bblackwood]

Everyone's behaving themselves, right?

I'd hate to think otherwise...

[esteso]

Just wanted to check in and thank Ronny for standing up and being counted in the face of a pretty viscous attack from a lot of people. And you kept your cool too.... most impressive.

I get this sense that the SPs are a kind of sacred cow to some people. Among other things, they proved that you don't have to learn how to play an instrument well in order to be a screaming success. That's a very popular idea here in America in our Chicken McNugget fast food mentality. I don't have to practise my instrument or refine my ideas, just cop a 'tude and shoot some H. Woohoo!

[Bobro]

Here's another point of view-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4863986.stm


-Bobro

[organica]

thermionic wrote on Sat, 25 February 2006 17:49

http://www.johnlydon.com/images/congrat1a.jpg Some things never change... Thank God for that! Justin

YEAH !!!!!!!!!!!

a

[MB]

esteso wrote on Sun, 02 April 2006 01:07

Just wanted to check in and thank Ronny for standing up and being counted in the face of a pretty viscous attack from a lot of people. And you kept your cool too.... most impressive. I get this sense that the SPs are a kind of sacred cow to some people. Among other things, they proved that you don't have to learn how to play an instrument well in order to be a screaming success. That's a very popular idea here in America in our Chicken McNugget fast food mentality. I don't have to practise my instrument or refine my ideas, just cop a 'tude and shoot some H. Woohoo!

Well Ron was wrong to a fault but I only saw one person going at him hard and he came off a bit prattish and over-compensating, not to mention specious. As Jello once said, "Trash a bank if ya got real balls".

Anyhoo, more importantly, there are facts in the world that some people of the postmodern persuasion are determined to pass off as opinion. Sacred cow? Irrelevant. The Sex Pistols changed music and more importantly changed culture. Skill, popularity or intentionality are all irrelevant to the fact. Whether they were the first or the best doesn't matter. There was a world pre-Sex Pistols and a world post-Sex Pistols. This is just a simple fact. Look it up.

As someone else said earlier, Americans seem to have hard time understanding just how radical this shit was and how much more culturally immediate this plays in repressed, dark ages England on the verge of a class war. It's normal that most whitebread would reduce this to familiar context and summarily dismiss it. It's just music right? Like Peter Frampton without that thing in his mouth right? Er, no actually, it's not like that at all.

[maxim]

michael wrote:

"pretty viscous attack"

like being attacked with jello