Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[John Ivan]

zetterstroem wrote on Mon, 27 February 2006 13:03

blah blah blah

Well, that is brilliantly stated.

Look, I understand people who for the most part spent their entire musical experience using MIDI and Samples not liking what I have to say but, look at it from my perspective..

From 5 years old on, I worked my ass of on three instruments and sang everyday. I was given the impression that this was an important aspect of life for others as well as for myself. I felt that people could find joy and comfort in the interaction that takes place between a musician and/or group of musicians and the listener. As I grew as a player, I became more and more in tune with this vibe and it helped me LIVE and breath easy. I felt a connection start to grow that was an interaction. I could move people with dynamics and they could move me too. Play a line in a room filled with 400 people during a section of music so quiet,you can hear a pin drop. Know that the three note melody you just played,slapped them in their hearts. Take the room from near silence to an audience reaction so loud that you can't hear the band for a minute.

This is all,, all missing in electronic music.

This is only one aspect of what is inherently unmusical about modern electronic music.Music is an organic experience that is in us as part of the human condition so, one could write for hours about the individual experiences that can't and wont happen with machines running. I wont, but I could..

The other issue I have is the fact that it has and is,eroding the human resource needed in the way of musicians. Not as many drummers are being called. Same for bass players. Sax guys and Guitar guys still get a lot of calls because there are no sax samples that sound any good. Same for guitar...

So,, roll your pretty eyes all you'd like pumpkin, when you come from living and breathing music everyday on real instruments for 30 some odd years and find your self in a business where a lot of what you do isn't in the "music" anymore, it's sort of a drag. Right? Or would you not know? I can't tell.

What do you do? dance stuff like, house? Hip Hop?, Rap? I mean, you might be really really good at what you do, I don't know.

[zetterstroem]

ivan40 wrote on Tue, 28 February 2006 11:24

zetterstroem wrote on Mon, 27 February 2006 13:03 blah blah blah   Well, that is brilliantly stated. Look, I understand people who for the most part spent their entire musical experience using MIDI and Samples not liking what I have to say but, look at it from my perspective.. From 5 years old on, I worked my ass of on three instruments and sang everyday. I was given the impression that this was an important aspect of life for others as well as for myself. I felt that people could find joy and comfort in the interaction that takes place between a musician and/or group of musicians and the listener. As I grew as a player, I became more and more in tune with this vibe and it helped me LIVE and breath easy. I felt a connection start to grow that was an interaction. I could move people with dynamics and they could move me too. Play a line in a room filled with 400 people during a section of music so quiet,you can hear a pin drop. Know that the three note melody you just played,slapped them in their hearts. Take the room from near silence to an audience reaction so loud that you can't hear the band for a minute. i respect that.... and agree totally.... that's what i like about eg. folk music...... This is all,, all missing in electronic music. i think alot of electronic stuff miss out on dynamics.... but the connection to the public is there...... and some of the other factors you described. This is only one aspect of what is inherently unmusical about modern electronic music. now we begin to disagree again.... it's just to narrowminded Music is an organic unorganic things can be beautiful too imo..... (isn't cubism art too?? experience that is in us as part of the human condition so, one could write for hours about the individual experiences that can't and wont happen with machines running. I wont, but I could.. it could happen..... just imagine someone starting to make electronic music at age 5..... The other issue I have is the fact that it has and is,eroding the human resource needed in the way of musicians. Not as many drummers are being called. Same for bass players. Sax guys and Guitar guys still get a lot of calls because there are no sax samples that sound any good. Same for guitar... that's really a shame.... i abree totally.... So,, roll your pretty eyes all you'd like pumpkin, i was actually rolling my eyes at tik always having to be so.... well.... childlike.... pumpkin   when you come from living and breathing music everyday on real instruments for 30 some odd years and find your self in a business where a lot of what you do isn't in the "music" anymore, it's sort of a drag. Right? Or would you not know? I can't tell. i know.... i've been engineering what seems hundreds of plastic pop mixes with autotune and soundreplaced drums all over..... i don't miss it..... sometimes i HAD to listen to bob dylan (or meshuggah) for an hour just to get the energy to work again... What do you do? dance stuff like, house? Hip Hop?, Rap? I mean, you might be really really good at what you do, I don't know.i'm not a musician (i do some electronic stuff... on an entirely amateur level)..... i'm an engineer and music lover..... i don't own any dance.... hiphop....  or house as i find it to monotonous and uninspiring to listen to.... but i engineer it.... and i'm good at it... cause i accept it as music and find out what makes any peticular kind of music rock.... but anyway.... let's agree to disagree on some points....

[John Ivan]

Yep, we can agree to disagree on some things. Your answer was intelligent and you bring an interesting point of view that is shared by a lot of smart talented folks.

I admit that it's somewhat personal with me and part of the deal is I just don't like the sound of electronic music. I mean, the sound of it, Know what I mean?

I dig your sig a lot

[Ryan Reilly]

ivan, I agree with you on all counts.

part of the reason I love playing music is to look out into an audience and see they're reaction. Hear and see them totally immerse themselves into the experience of the song I'm playing. It already floods through me, and now here I am, on a stage, and these people are sharing that same feeling.

Electronic music can't do that. "Thud thuds", sirens, and loop-de-loops sound cool, and you can dance to them, but that's about the only way they'll ever move anyone.

also, and I may be alone here, but I wish people would stop hailing Pink Floyd as some amazing pinnacle of rock glory. Any band that feels the need to refer to their particular sound as "psychadelic" needs to lay off their dealer's phone number for a little while. Granted, there are some Floyd songs I can dig on, but really, they are mostly too far fetched and out there. I don't always have the Wizard of Oz and a bong handy either, so I guess I can't fully appreciate their genius.

I agree that music is art, but people that define themselves as "artists" drive me mad! I can't stand Radiohead, or the shoe-gazer music they have inspired.

If Beethoven were alive today, he, Lemmy, and God could duke it out in a steel cage. That would be awesome.

[rollmottle]

wtf...

so then, is a synthesizer not a "real" musical instrument since it is electronic in origin? is an electric guitar a real instrument? how do electronic effects figure into your world view? huh?

untreated acoustic instruments only? define "real instrument." so silly...


last time i checked, my moog, my soft synths, my Rickenbacker, my tambourine, my bass, my acoustic guitar, and my violin were real instruments by all accounts.

???

[John Ivan]

rollmottle wrote on Mon, 06 March 2006 17:11

wtf... so then, is a synthesizer not a "real" musical instrument since it is electronic in origin? is an electric guitar a real instrument? how do electronic effects figure into your world view? huh? untreated acoustic instruments only? define "real instrument." so silly... last time i checked, my moog, my soft synths, my Rickenbacker, my tambourine, my bass, my acoustic guitar, and my violin were real instruments by all accounts. ???

The answer to your question hasn't changed from the beginning of musical time. A real instrument is one that is making the following connection:

A player of an instrument manipulates the instrument with his/her hands,feet nose,mouth or some other part of their body.This instrument produces a sound or a grouping of sounds. This happens through Time and on the other end of this sound is a listener who receives "The Idea". This can be any living organism. It can be simply the person making the original sound.

The fact that there is a sound created in time and being received by another living being, makes it a language. The smallest change in amplitude or pitch or a change in how this is communicated through time makes this all very very complex and can be a deeply moving and emotional experience. It's the direct conveyance from one to another that makes this a human experience worthy of our indulgence.

Machine driven music, IMNTLBHO, is missing a number of qualities that are key in moving people emotionally.

To me, it's the difference between Porn and Love making..

It's simple. Music is music..

Ivan................................................

[rollmottle]

ivan40 wrote on Mon, 06 March 2006 14:34

rollmottle wrote on Mon, 06 March 2006 17:11 wtf... so then, is a synthesizer not a "real" musical instrument since it is electronic in origin? is an electric guitar a real instrument? how do electronic effects figure into your world view? huh? untreated acoustic instruments only? define "real instrument." so silly... last time i checked, my moog, my soft synths, my Rickenbacker, my tambourine, my bass, my acoustic guitar, and my violin were real instruments by all accounts. ??? The answer to your question hasn't changed from the beginning of musical time. A real instrument is one that is making the following connection: A player of an instrument manipulates the instrument with his/her hands,feet nose,mouth or some other part of their body.This instrument produces a sound or a grouping of sounds. This happens through Time and on the other end of this sound is a listener who receives "The Idea". This can be any living organism. It can be simply the person making the original sound. The fact that there is a sound created in time and being received by another living being, makes it a language. The smallest change in amplitude or pitch or a change in how this is communicated through time makes this all very very complex and can be a deeply moving and emotional experience. It's the direct conveyance from one to another that makes this a human experience worthy of our indulgence. Machine driven music, IMNTLBHO, is missing a number of qualities that are key in moving people emotionally. To me, it's the difference between Porn and Love making.. It's simple. Music is music.. Ivan................................................

your assumption is that it is the machines that drive the music rather than the human behind them (ironic argument considering the medium this debate is occurring in). my machines, whether it's a synthesizer in my computer or some lumbering hunk of wood and capacitors are all just a means to an end. just like my guitars, my violin, and any other instrument/tool electronic or acoustic i might use to express emotion musically.

wonder what you might think of the song entitled "Gavin Bryars" on my myspace page...

[John Ivan]

When the 1/16th notes are being generated by math instead of someones hand, it is not being driven by a human. I wont move one inch from this point of view. Ever. I spent to much time on these instruments. I simply know better. Now, I understand that I only know better for ME. But I can't lie about how I feel about it. It just doesn't do anything for me except make me feel like going away from it. Believe it or not, there is nothing I can do about this either. Having an open mind isn't the issue. What ones nervous system has been trained to except is.

I listened to the tune you suggested and Have a couple comments.

The groove in no way makes me understand that a person is saying something through beat division. You could have chosen any of 30,000,000,000 sounds for that beat and it would not change the feel for me at all.

I like the swells that come in and out and the textures give me the feeling that I might be in a city.

I think that the choice to use an F in a melody over an E-min and D maj progression took guts and has an interesting tension.

I know you care deeply about what you do and I don't doubt you work hard and have something in mind for the end product just like everyone else. I don't discount your Passion or love at all.

It's just not my cup of Tea, that's all.

Ivan........................................

[rollmottle]

ivan40 wrote on Mon, 06 March 2006 17:11

When the 1/16th notes are being generated by math instead of someones hand, it is not being driven by a human. I wont move one inch from this point of view. Ever. I spent to much time on these instruments. I simply know better. Now, I understand that I only know better for ME. But I can't lie about how I feel about it. It just doesn't do anything for me except make me feel like going away from it. Believe it or not, there is nothing I can do about this either. Having an open mind isn't the issue. What ones nervous system has been trained to except is. I listened to the tune you suggested and Have a couple comments. The groove in no way makes me understand that a person is saying something through beat division. You could have chosen any of 30,000,000,000 sounds for that beat and it would not change the feel for me at all. I like the swells that come in and out and the textures give me the feeling that I might be in a city. I think that the choice to use an F in a melody over an E-min and D maj progression took guts and has an interesting tension. I know you care deeply about what you do and I don't doubt you work hard and have something in mind for the end product just like everyone else. I don't discount your Passion or love at all. It's just not my cup of Tea, that's all. Ivan........................................

an interesting point of view in this day and age to say the least. can't say i see why anybody would place seemingly arbitrary (to me at least) limits on a virtually limitless medium, but this is your POV and while i don't agree, i can respect your position.

and btw, thanks for taking the time to give the song a listen. cheers!