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Author Topic: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???  (Read 7969 times)

MorningStar

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Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
« Reply #75 on: February 28, 2006, 11:57:08 am »

pg666 wrote on Tue, 28 February 2006 10:43

is 'bitches brew' a jazz record? who was the first heavy metal band? are weezer emo? do these pants make me look fat?

not everything fits neatly into a category and that's not exclusive to indie rock. it's also not that interesting. there are a lot of common traits you find in indie rock (especially when talking about peoples' approach to music) and that is interesting imo.

i think plenty of people gave MorningStar genuine answers and all they got back were stubborn dissmissals and a slightly condescending attitude, so they quit trying.


Thanks for mentioning Bitches Brew, I've got that on now. Theres some great stuff on there. Yes its still Jazz (imo), just the start of something new. I'm going with Black Sabbath for the first heavy metal band. I'll stay out of the emo stuff and i dont know on the last one.

I really liked the answers from garret early in the thread. It still seemed to be about the music and the free expression of ideas.
The point that i think is being missed here and its the thing i struggle with, is the idea of this "secret club", and having to fit into a certain look or scene. If you play lead guitar on a cd your not indie. If you care too much about pitch your not indie. If you sell too many records, your not indie.
I like the whole idea of small labels, unsigned bands, regardless of the specific genre. I guess I'm off base with that, but its much more friendly isnt it?

scottoliphant

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Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
« Reply #76 on: February 28, 2006, 12:05:33 pm »

i think you are totally overthinking it.
it's not a secret club. it's just music. different people play different types of music. it's not an enigma code that needs breaking. you keep trying to apply rules to it, which would be hard for any type of music, and what a stressful way to enjoy music. you either get it or you don't, and you don't

MorningStar

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Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
« Reply #77 on: February 28, 2006, 12:20:51 pm »

scottoliphant wrote on Tue, 28 February 2006 12:05

i think you are totally overthinking it.
it's not a secret club. it's just music. different people play different types of music. it's not an enigma code that needs breaking. you keep trying to apply rules to it, which would be hard for any type of music, and what a stressful way to enjoy music. you either get it or you don't, and you don't



I enjoy music with out any stress, thanks. I also "get it" pretty easily.

j hall wrote


fibes, xonlocust and i once spent many hours discussing this topic. we sorta came up with the analogy that indie rock, anymore, has become a secret society completely on accident.

perhaps not on accident.

a syndicate if you will.



Now I didnt say this as you can see. Those arent my words. So I'm just playing the hand I've been given.

pg666

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Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
« Reply #78 on: February 28, 2006, 12:22:58 pm »

Quote:

If you play lead guitar on a cd your not indie. If you care too much about pitch your not indie. If you sell too many records, your not indie.


guitar solos= dinosaur jr.

good singing, well, that's been covered.

by this point every sonic taboo has been covered (horns, strings, linn drums, concept albums, literally anything) in indie rock. the point (even if only idealistically) is that these people are making music because they must; not for popularity, money, critical acclaim, etc. that's the only common ground you'll find between all of the bands that were recommended.
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j.hall

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Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
« Reply #79 on: February 28, 2006, 12:30:58 pm »

here's the bottom line.

indie rock as it exists is something that happened in time.  those of us who lived it (within the time line) fully understand what "it" is, and what it means.  those who want to know can only be given a rough outline or general run down of SOME of the ideas.  but unless you lived it, you can't really "get it".

i can sit with a recovering heroine addict and understand their pain, but i don't get it, as i've never lived it.

can you describe to me what the black panthers were?

no....you can give me a brief run down, but it was something that happened real time, and it can't just be explained.

i think the rock n roll world is fascinated by indie rock because of this.  it's like you all went to sleep one night while we stayed up and created a mystery.  you aren't really that interested in living it real time, but the human experience eggs on your desire to be "in the know".

i can't live that moment where i put metallica down and picked up fugazi for you.  i can't live, the countless times i went to all ages shows and raised my fist in the air to the pulsing sounds of what i thought was a revolution, for you.  i can't consume your life with fan-zines, basement record stores, hard to find 7"s, mail order catalogues from touch and go, and years of word of mouth communication prior to the internet, for you.

you want to know EXACTLY what indie rock is?

find a time machine, go back 12 - 15 years and live it with me, when it started.  then, and only then, will you fully understand.
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Fabricoh35

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Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
« Reply #80 on: February 28, 2006, 12:51:13 pm »

MorningStar wrote on Tue, 28 February 2006 10:59

Fabricoh35 wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 21:37

Morningstar, I give you something to check out.  Go listen to Archers of Loaf (old) and then Crooked Fingers (new).  Same guys fronts both bands.

Let me know what you think.  I don't want to influence your thoughts so I won't say anymore.

Eric knew what was coming back on the Vee Vee album when he sang "the underground is overcrowded".


This was rather interesting. Suprising its the same guy. I'm not sure what to make of that. To me it sounds like 2 different guys.


My point in using those bands as an example was to show that vast different sounding things can both be "indie".  

So in my opinion then what is and isn't indie has little to do with the sound (in or out of tune vocals, solos, leads, effect pedals, banjos, 3 chord progressions or 40 chord progressions) but is more about the message and the purpose of the music.

Yes there will be a "look" and "style" that goes along with any "label" but not all people associated with that "label" fit that style or look exactly or at all.  Take the look of Pavement vs Built to Spill.  Similar?  Perhaps.  Different?  Perhaps.  Depends on the year, the week, the day.

So, again to me it is in the message and purpose of the music.  I'd say that at a certain point U2 would/could have been considered indie, but now based on their current message/purpose they are not at all indie.  Same with REM.  You can lose you "indieness" but it has less to do with sucess and more to do with a change of message/purpose.
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TheViking

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Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
« Reply #81 on: February 28, 2006, 03:52:04 pm »

j.hall wrote on Tue, 28 February 2006 12:30


i think the rock n roll world is fascinated by indie rock because of this.  it's like you all went to sleep one night while we stayed up and created a mystery.  you aren't really that interested in living it real time, but the human experience eggs on your desire to be "in the know".

i can't live that moment where i put metallica down and picked up fugazi for you.  i can't live, the countless times i went to all ages shows and raised my fist in the air to the pulsing sounds of what i thought was a revolution, for you.  i can't consume your life with fan-zines, basement record stores, hard to find 7"s, mail order catalogues from touch and go, and years of word of mouth communication prior to the internet, for you.



You have an interesting way of romanticizing marketing.   Which is all you are really talking about here.

Understand that my questioning here is not in disrespect of the 'real' indie rock subscribers.   I have a deep respect for the genre as a whole.   I just get lost when music becomes less of the focus and starts moving into fashion, scenes, posers and sellouts.   Defining a band by their studded belts and chain wallets doesn't sound very educated...   or musical.

The reason I share this is because in my own scene here, bands are judged more on appearence than talent.   It's unfortunate.   Then the bands that actually have talent and find success get put down by the scene they are birthed out of because they 'sold out'.   This is where I am coming from in all this.

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scottoliphant

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Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
« Reply #82 on: February 28, 2006, 04:19:46 pm »

Quote:

You have an interesting way of romanticizing marketing. Which is all you are really talking about here.
is it marketing following the music or the music following the marketing (as you suppose)? I'd hazard to guess that fugazi 20 years ago was not that marketable but still impacted peoples lives to varying degrees of importance. Marketing follows trends, trends originate somewhere. Before we saw "Singles" and heard about "grunge" the NW was teeming with activity. The same could be said for any musical movement.


and one more thing
Quote:

Defining a band by their studded belts and chain wallets doesn't sound very educated... or musical.
this happens in every genre of music, hip hop, jam bands, country, etc etc

ridgeback

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Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
« Reply #83 on: February 28, 2006, 04:39:06 pm »

Being from the 80-90's Minneapolis scene, the "successful bands suck" syndrome was in full swing. Replacements, Soul Asylum, HuskerDu, Jayhawks, Golden Smog....all of which had their major label fly's and failures. Most of the "little guys" never made it. But those who did "sucked". Which was pretty ridiculous in itself. Those bands worked extremely hard and had very colorful roots in the scene which they basically created. Granted alot of those major label releases lost their oomph due to poor production and loss of energy in the songwriting process. Complacency? Maybe, who knows unless you were there.
When I was playing regularly and touring, everything was out of pocket. You payed for your tour costs, studio time, mastering, pressing, and hopefully a small "indie label" would see some potential and release it. It was a great lesson in DIY. I think thats where the true indie spirit lies. Indie labels, well we all know how many slutted to the majors but that's the game.
So "indie rock" = "fledgling rock"? Not that simple of course.
Again I turn back to the DIY process. There were tons of bands and labels which trudged along not giving a hoot what the industry wanted. And there still are some. The folks who don't give a f*ck about being "rockstars" for a year (which is the going rate it seems) in the major industry.
In this day of home studios and pressing options as well as internet music, again the majors are getting a run for their money and I for one like it.
My ought two
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TheViking

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Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
« Reply #84 on: February 28, 2006, 04:59:22 pm »

scottoliphant wrote on Tue, 28 February 2006 16:19

Quote:

You have an interesting way of romanticizing marketing. Which is all you are really talking about here.
is it marketing following the music or the music following the marketing (as you suppose)? I'd hazard to guess that fugazi 20 years ago was not that marketable but still impacted peoples lives to varying degrees of importance. Marketing follows trends, trends originate somewhere. Before we saw "Singles" and heard about "grunge" the NW was teeming with activity. The same could be said for any musical movement.


and one more thing
Quote:

Defining a band by their studded belts and chain wallets doesn't sound very educated... or musical.
this happens in every genre of music, hip hop, jam bands, country, etc etc



Just because it happens other places doesn't make it more or less acceptible.

Shouldn't we be striving for more as musicians and music lovers???

I'm a musician.   Not a scenester or a male model.

I'm not suggesting that things will change or that we should start some kind of crusade either.   I'm just challenging people to think about why they believe what they believe.
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j.hall

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Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
« Reply #85 on: February 28, 2006, 05:16:08 pm »

my wife and i saw this whole 2 hour documentary on PBS a few years back.  it was focused on how the "mainstream" looks to the underground for it's next big marketing move.  it wasn't pro underground, or pro mainstream.  it was simply a brilliant look into a concept this "reporter" had.  the thought was that all trends start with out any marketing or anything, they just simply happen.  then the mainstream business men see their 14 year old kids doing this and they dash off and mass market it to make some serious cash.

i tried to get a copy of that program but couldn't.

anyway, the piece was really profound.  they used a handful of bands and showed how their hometowns built them up and supported them, then when it got larger, their home towns abandoned them.

basically the model looked like this.

kids come up with new trend, music, fashion, whatever.  

mass market grabs hold.

original kids either ditch it cause it's mainstream, or they have already moved on to something else.

in the end of the film, the point derived from all this was simple, and i loved it.

"the underground will always be the place the trends begin.  whether they are ditched or just play themselves out makes no difference.  the mainstream market is always playing catch up."

whether you not you think my posts are marketing dribble is meaningless to me.

most humans want to be part of something that is unique and special.  something they can claim their own.  it creates identity, and avoids "same-ness".  

when i say you had to be there, i mean it.

when shudder to think ad jawbox both left the most talked about indie label ever (dischord records) for major labels within a few months of each other, you simply had to be there at that time to understand how earth shattering that was.

bands don't leave dischord for a major.......it was unheard of.

keep in mind we're talking the mid 90's here.  major labels were gobbling everything up that could possibly bare the name "alternative", stripping the cool away, and cramming it down your throat.....FORCE FED.

so as the scene buzzed with rumors of heresy, both of those bands proceeded to crank out two of the most influential indie rock records to date........ON A MAJOR LABEL

so not only did they do the unspeakable at that time, but they delivered something that was not only unheard of on a major, but they re-defined indie rock right then and there.

BAM.....the whole game changed.....literally over night.

shudder to think - pony express record
you won't hear anything like it now, then, or ever in the future.

jawbox - for your own special sweetheart
see above comment.

just a bit before that, drive like jehu dropped yank crime on interscope and rocket from the crypt dropped scream dracula scream on interscope.  the indie world almost crashed to it's knees right in the first 5 years it was birthed.......

helmet went from AmRep to Interscope and cranked out Meantime.

the list goes on...........

if you were there, and were burried in it, you would know what these records did.

they changed lives, they broke down barriers, they redefined a fledgling genre of music......

don't trivialise something i've put my whole life into, by calling it "marketing".
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NelsonL

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Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
« Reply #86 on: February 28, 2006, 06:00:36 pm »

  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415039495/qid=1141165785/s   r=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-5344283-9821654?s=books&v=glance&am p;am p;am p;n=283155

Here's a well recommended book along the lines of what J.'s talking about. I haven't read the whole thing-- so no quizzes allowed. Anyway it's not specifically about this debate, but I think a lot of what he lays out could apply here.

I'll give everyone a month or two to read it before I check this excellent thread again
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scottoliphant

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Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
« Reply #87 on: February 28, 2006, 06:46:15 pm »

Quote:

shudder to think - pony express record
I can't say enough good things about this record. way ahead of it's time. still sounds like it's ahead of it's time. blows me away. like a surrealist painting done with music. Saw the band tour for this in 94? or 95? don't remember. but it was incredible. this record turned me on to other other bands like failure, jawbox, chavez and the like.

Quote:


Just because it happens other places doesn't make it more or less acceptible.

Shouldn't we be striving for more as musicians and music lovers???

I'm a musician. Not a scenester or a male model.

I'm not suggesting that things will change or that we should start some kind of crusade either. I'm just challenging people to think about why they believe what they believe.


Music is most young peoples first foray into individualism. They can instantly differentiate themselves from their peers, their parents, a whole social group. It's only natural that fashion falls into the mix shortly thereafter as another device to stand out and explore yourself and what you like at a young age. I personally missed the fashion boat (ask my wife), and don't see why it's necessary to ever wear anything other than a pair of comfortable jeans and a t shirt. Most of the musicians i know (myself included) don't dress their scene "part". I remember thinking in my old band when the skinny kids with tossled hair and really tight t shirts started showing up in droves, our band was starting to get somewhere (even though i didn't get it).

TheViking

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Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
« Reply #88 on: February 28, 2006, 07:43:36 pm »

scottoliphant wrote on Tue, 28 February 2006 18:46


I personally missed the fashion boat (ask my wife), and don't see why it's necessary to ever wear anything other than a pair of comfortable jeans and a t shirt. Most of the musicians i know (myself included) don't dress their scene "part". I remember thinking in my old band when the skinny kids with tossled hair and really tight t shirts started showing up in droves, our band was starting to get somewhere (even though i didn't get it).


I agree with you 150% there!   That is definately where I'm at...   and plan to stay.
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Daniel Asti

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Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
« Reply #89 on: March 24, 2006, 01:28:52 pm »

Indie ( band signed to independant label )
Rock  ( general style of music )

The term was (is) used to define bands who don't have a major label, or polished studio sound, either by choice or budget.

Bands on labels like SubPop (i.e. Nirvana) were obviously considered Indie.  Bands like The Pixies on 4AD were considered Indie as well because the labeal was not owned or operated by a Major.  Bands like Pearl Jam could be considered Indie in sound but were signed to a major.  At that time I never remember personally considering them indie or alternative in any way which brings me to my next point:  

It's all subjective but "lot of WHOAs in the chorus", "last band that was just on the radio"  and "Twenty Somethings" sounds like "All American Rejects" or newer "Fall Out Boy" or "Hawthorn Heights" which are big studio - big budject - big production - big marketing - MAJOR LABEL POP ROCK.  Maybe this is what you're talking about?  

When you're critisizing an artists' and producers' lack of originality, especially those who have had commercial success, it totally opens yourself up to the same critique.  

Are you just a jealous Joe / can't stand others success?  

Are you bitter having been repeatedly rejected?

Are you just a lazy SOB who loves to complain?

Are you just not talented?

Talented but unlikeable with no networking skills?

(Or is it the era) - "It just aint like it used to be, man"?

Since it's hard to know EXACTLY who or what you are whinning about my only suggestion is to buy a radio with a power button if you can't find a station to your liking.
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