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Author Topic: No Limiting?  (Read 1888 times)

Adler

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No Limiting?
« on: February 17, 2006, 04:36:35 PM »

Hello everyone,

First off, I am not a full-time mastering engineer (I'm really more of a mixing guy).  Every now and again I help out some of my penniless friends when I can't convince them that going to a specialist is worth every red cent they can scrounge together.  I'm all ITB (except when tracking); I use Pyramix and have some very respectable sounding VS3 (DSP card) plugins, as well as a select few DirectX plugins.

Anyway, I'm working on remastering a record that was recorded in like 1993 in preparation for a re-release.  The tracks are coming off the original CD.  The mixes are total shit, and I don't think it was really mastered back then (a remix is not possible). The kick and snare are loud as hell and peaking way above the rest of the mix.  The rest is just plain muddy.

I've been able to clean up a lot of the mud with loads of eq, and the snare, cymbals, guitars, and vox are starting to sound decent.  I've also been fattening with a good deal of compression.  What I have noticed, though, is that any amount of peak limiting beyond clipping protection (threshold=-0.1 dBFS) turns the mix into swiss cheese.  I'm cool with that because loudness is not really a top priority; making the record listenable is.  My issue is that I'm having a hard time making the kick work; I had to remove so much body while clearing up the mud that what I'm left with is an incredibly punchy kick with a lot of snap in the 4kHz area.  There's a lot of 100 Hz as well which is making it hard to work with the bass (which was poorly recorded and muddy to begin with).

I'm wondering if you guys might be able to share some techniques you use in such cases.  Parallel compression?  M/S mastering?  Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Chris
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Chris Adler
Mindtree Studios

TotalSonic

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Re: No Limiting?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2006, 04:57:58 PM »

Sounds like processing with a great broadband comp is probably one of the main things you need (usually I'd place this in the chain after the eq's in a case like this) & going light on the limiter is usually not a bad thing either - so I think you are on the right track with these choices.

I'd also probably look towards processing the Mid channel seperately with a multiband comp to help tame the bottom end problems you stated you are having.   I'd start with just a single band working on the low end and bypass the other bands.  If things are poking out in the 4k region also you could enable a 2nd band to deal with that also.  Often I find it best to start the chain with the multiband comp before sending to eq's.

Also - possibly - after a general shelf down to lower the muddines a carefully selected small boost in the bottom end with a narrow Q might help bring back some body to the kick.  

Again - these are conjectures - it really is impossible to say how to proceed without actually hearing the track.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

carlsaff

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Re: No Limiting?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2006, 05:10:48 PM »

Any chance you could upload a raw, unprocessed mix for us to evaluate?

This service is fast and free... great way to share WAV files:

http://www.yousendit.com

Adler

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Re: No Limiting?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2006, 01:40:33 AM »

TotalSonic wrote on Fri, 17 February 2006 16:57

Sounds like processing with a great broadband comp is probably one of the main things you need (usually I'd place this in the chain after the eq's in a case like this) & going light on the limiter is usually not a bad thing either - so I think you are on the right track with these choices.

I'd also probably look towards processing the Mid channel seperately with a multiband comp to help tame the bottom end problems you stated you are having.   I'd start with just a single band working on the low end and bypass the other bands.  If things are poking out in the 4k region also you could enable a 2nd band to deal with that also.  Often I find it best to start the chain with the multiband comp before sending to eq's.

Also - possibly - after a general shelf down to lower the muddines a carefully selected small boost in the bottom end with a narrow Q might help bring back some body to the kick.



Yes, Steve, these are the kind of suggestions I am looking for.  Thank you...I've altready been using multiband compression in a similar capacity, but I hadn't thought about it from the M/S angle.

Quote:


Again - these are conjectures - it really is impossible to say how to proceed without actually hearing the track.



The record is actually the first record of a fairly well known band (at least in the Northeast), so I would feel somewhat strange about posting a track on the Internet.

Thanks again,
Chris
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Chris Adler
Mindtree Studios

cerberus

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Re: No Limiting?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2006, 08:17:21 AM »

i think perhaps all of the above suggestions are good.. i'd guess that multiband and m/s  might solve the major issues and a parallel bus could contain the parts needed to fill in the gaps that remain.   it could be possible to use external sidechaining to slightly duck one of these "prepared" bus signals against another, this technique can help clarify a muddy mix, for me it depends on whether m/s can help separate the low range instruments from the brighter ones, particularly that the kick and bass are mostly mono, the guitars and hi hats are mostly stereo, and the vocals do not get near the bass.  

i find that mastering and restoration are two sides of the same engineering coin... restortation tends to require additional processing (e.g.noise reduction), but the final steps is the same as mastering. and there is a gray area for me between these extremes: when a mix has a bad problem. in this case, the needs of the music would take precedence over the need to preserve the mix engineer's decisions (which are assumed at this point to have been poor). perhaps that is the case here.

jeff dinces
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