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Author Topic: A thread about wall construction  (Read 10497 times)

ShakesTheClown

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A thread about wall construction
« on: April 01, 2011, 02:20:00 am »

Curious here, I know I'm opening a can of worms but, if I'm building a room inside a room, how much does is matter where I put the mass?

What are the merits of symmetrical construction as opposed to asymmetrical? For instance... Two layers of drywall, wood frame, insulation, air, wood frame, two layers of drywall - vs. - One layer of drywall, wood frame, insulation, air, wood frame, and three layers of drywall.

As long as it's all sealed up, how significant is the difference? I'm building inside an existing structure and I intend to remove the layer of drywall on the inside of the space and build inside it. Yes, I can add an extra layer to the outside of the existing wall but that would involve removing/replacing a few existing parallel walls, adding the second(or third) layer and then replacing the parallel walls.

Can I use the drywall that I remove from the inside leaf to reinforce the outside layer by green gluing it to the inside of the outside wall if I place it between the studs?

Now that I think about it, I'm willing to bet that the existing structure is built of 1/2in. sheets and I will be using 5/8in.

Thoughts?
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Thomas@Northward

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Re: A thread about wall construction
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2011, 06:43:22 am »

I would skip the Green Glue / Resilient channels etc, focus on a well thought-out wall assembly and add mass instead.

Here's a couple documents that will for sure help you too:

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/pubs/ir/ir761/ir761.pdf

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/pubs/nrcc41501.pdf
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ShakesTheClown

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Re: A thread about wall construction
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2011, 08:55:12 pm »

Awesome! I'll be back in a week with more questions.
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franman

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Re: A thread about wall construction
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2011, 10:07:15 pm »

I'm with Thomas on this one.. Build a simple, but massive wall... Watch your flanking paths and keep it simple.. 2x 5/8" - Stud(Insul) 2x 5/8"... Build it tight and seal it up. On Inner walls, we try to use a min of three layers (materials may vary) just to have a rigid leaf on the inside (of floating rooms). Rarely do we go over 4 layers (diminishing returns) because of mass law.

fm
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ShakesTheClown

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Re: A thread about wall construction
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2011, 01:24:26 pm »

Ok, I've read and digested all of this but the math involved in the flanking study is waay over my head. I think I have a good idea of what needs to be done here but as always, there are lots of variables.

In the interest of full disclosure, there is an existing thread here...

http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopic.php?p=632850#632850
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Thomas@Northward

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Re: A thread about wall construction
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2011, 07:02:22 am »

If you have neighbors, you'll have to float at least your Live Room. Otherwise, it's guaranteed problems.

How high is your ceiling (building structure) and what is the load bearing capacity of the floor?

If you can get us that data, then we'll be able to tell you what's feasible technically.
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ShakesTheClown

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Re: A thread about wall construction
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2011, 11:35:50 am »

Ceiling height is only 10ft to the underside of the roof supports. As it stands the drop ceiling is just short of 9 1/2 feet.

The floor is a solid concrete foundation so I'm pretty sure it'll support anything I throw at it.

Any ideas about what issues I'm going to have with the windows?
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Thomas@Northward

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Re: A thread about wall construction
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 10:17:42 am »

Windows: not an issue.

Ceiling height: possibly an issue... If you have to float.
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ShakesTheClown

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Re: A thread about wall construction
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 04:11:28 pm »

Why would I have to float the floor if it's a solid slab? The building isn't on level ground but the slab is certainly level. On my end I'm sitting on about four feet of solid concrete.
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Thomas@Northward

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Re: A thread about wall construction
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2011, 05:15:28 am »

It's still to be determined if you need to float or not. Mechanical noise transmission is a tough monkey. If you take a risk and it turns out you have a problem, the whole project could be pretty much worthless and unusable. So it's best to investigate the current situation and needs and decide after. Keeping a major safety margin. Not floating = we are sure there are very limited risks. In case of a doubt: float. Floating isn't as expensive as people think wrt to the rest of the costs.

- Have you got plans of the whole building (including foundations & cross sections) in PDF or JPEG?
- Have you got direct neighbors?
- How much flanking are your ready to tolerate from LR to CR?
- How much vibrations from the nearby street are you ready to tolerate?

If you can post the pics & plans of your building here, I can for sure let you know what the first impressions are on that.
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ShakesTheClown

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Re: A thread about wall construction
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2011, 01:04:35 pm »

Thomas, you are so kind to help me with this. Thank you.

I do not have plans of the building at all right now, I'm not sure I can even get them.

I do have direct neighbors. The studio office and offices for the record label/management company are next door. The wall is 1/2 drywall and insulation on wood framing. I can take out the inside (my side) layer of drywall if necessary but I can't build on their side. There is a hair salon on the other side of them.

I'm ok with a little transmission between the rooms. I built the place I'm in now(all the wrong ways) and It's just one smallish room with a 10x10x12 iso booth. I can always hear amps firing away in there so I guess I'm used to it. I really wish I had better isolation though. When checking drums I can always hear the fundamentals more in the room that through the speakers.

Vibrations from the street? How much should I tolerate? Will it be noticeable or is it just low frequency rumble?

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Thomas@Northward

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Re: A thread about wall construction
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2011, 05:40:29 am »

I do have direct neighbors. The studio office and offices for the record label/management company are next door. The wall is 1/2 drywall and insulation on wood framing. I can take out the inside (my side) layer of drywall if necessary but I can't build on their side. There is a hair salon on the other side of them.

Then I would float, no hesitation to have here. You cannot afford to have issues with your neighbors. They can have you closed down in a matter of days. Solidian transmission is the cause of a lot of  re-emission, and no matter how thick your walls will be, it's the building structure and THEIR wall that will vibrate and cause them to hear you. Even if they're far.

Vibrations from the street? How much should I tolerate? Will it be noticeable or is it just low frequency rumble?

You should not tolerate any. Even if barely audible. Once you start to compress, it will be difficult to manage. But that can be assessed by doing some measurement over a few days.

To reassure you: both these issues are taken care of or improving when floating.
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boggy

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Re: A thread about wall construction
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2011, 04:16:15 pm »

I agree with Thomas.  Nick has at least two reasons to build a (serious) floating floor. Neighbors and street traffic.
Solid (concrete) slab on ground is a cheapest/easiest way to build a floating floor because there aren't load-bearing capacity problems.
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rjc

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Re: A thread about wall construction
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2011, 09:40:00 am »

Then I would float, no hesitation to have here. You cannot afford to have issues with your neighbors...

Yes, absolutely. It's not just about ensuring your neighbours won't complain and/or have you shut down. You also need to deal with impact noises, footfalls and dropped items etc finding their way from your neighbours' spaces into yours and onto your recordings. This is potentially at least as serious an issue as rumble and vibration from the street (the noises may be less frequent, but no less problematic...).
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ShakesTheClown

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Re: A thread about wall construction
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2011, 10:38:56 pm »

You should not tolerate any. Even if barely audible. Once you start to compress, it will be difficult to manage. But that can be assessed by doing some measurement over a few days.

What kind of measurements are we talking about here?

Also, what mind of construction would you recommend here for the floors and ceilings?
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