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[Fibes]

rattleyour wrote on Wed, 22 February 2006 18:52

What about snare rolls? How's that work?

Flams are tough but not impossible.

Snare rolls can be mechanical if you don't dial in velocities and use a few samples. Sometimes I select a section and use a set f samples that trigger in order to give variety.

I usually put press rolls and grace notes on their own track but it's doable without...

BTW I normally use a blend of original signal and a sample to get what i need (that's lacking in the original) so all of this becomes less egregious.

[scott volthause]

Cool.

now all I need are some drum samples and I'll be all set...

errrrrr....

[NelsonL]

Fibes wrote on Wed, 22 February 2006 16:44

rattleyour wrote on Wed, 22 February 2006 18:52 What about snare rolls? How's that work? Flams are tough but not impossible. Snare rolls can be mechanical if you don't dial in velocities and use a few samples. Sometimes I select a section and use a set f samples that trigger in order to give variety. I usually put press rolls and grace notes on their own track but it's doable without... BTW I normally use a blend of original signal and a sample to get what i need (that's lacking in the original) so all of this becomes less egregious.

Do you roll your own samples?

I have some stuff I got at the Marsh, but I'd have to gain them down to make velocity layers-- they'd all be based of the same single snare hit.

Know what I mean?

[TheViking]

I find that it always sounds more realistic if you take samples of the actual drums you are going to replace.   It just seems to be a little more believable.   It also requires a lot of attention to the OH and room sounds as if the drums change tone or tune, etc.

[NelsonL]

TheViking wrote on Wed, 22 February 2006 18:31

I find that it always sounds more realistic if you take samples of the actual drums you are going to replace.   It just seems to be a little more believable.   It also requires a lot of attention to the OH and room sounds as if the drums change tone or tune, etc.

Interesting-- as a non-user I guess I've only considered it for tracks with a bad case of card board tone.

In which case it's hard to imagine wanting to use the original as a sample.

On the other hand, I've heard some really spotty canned sample usage-- where the crash sounds like it's across the hall from the kit because the rooms are so different. Not any of you guys by the way, don't read into this por favor.

[TheViking]

For more commercial rock sounds I will use samples for all my close miced drums - kick, snare, toms.   This way I can really soak them in lush reverb and make them sound huge.   The samples are used more to eliminate bleed.

What can I say...   the 80's are back, indeed!

[scottoliphant]

Quote:

What can I say... the 80's are back, indeed!

is this a good thing?   too bad that "60's" reverb probably won't catch back on...

[Iain Graham]

I had good success making my own samples off the recorded snare on a project. I was extremely savage with the EQ and compression settings. Made a really deep, boomy version, and a high version with all the attack in it.

SR'ed it over the original snare and added little bits in. Didn't have to EQ the snare. Just changed the relative balances.

Of course, having a great sounding snare to record in the first place made all the difference.

Iain

[Iain Graham]

It's not my studio to make it work in. And it's not really worth my making it work on my mBox system, I never use it anymore.

The vocalign thing is pretty simple. After getting SR to place hits on a new track, I invert the whole thing, as it's upside down. Think it's the way SR works that makes it line the first transient of each hit opposite the hit that's being replaced.

I usually cheat and vocalign the SR'ed hits so they're in time with the original. If it's snare, I'll align the SR'ed hits to my top snare channel.

I find SR puts the hits slightly early. If I don't vocalign them, and I've used Beat Detective on the kit, I'll nudge all the SR hits back a bit to get them in time, and the use BD to line them all up perfectly.

Vocalign is great for using programmed loops when the kit is not bang on the click. Just vocalign every 2 bars. Or do it the other way round, and vocalign the kit to the loop. Hand percussion like tambo or shaker can work too.

HTH,

Iain

[NelsonL]

TheViking wrote on Wed, 22 February 2006 20:33

For more commercial rock sounds I will use samples for all my close miced drums - kick, snare, toms.   This way I can really soak them in lush reverb and make them sound huge.   The samples are used more to eliminate bleed. What can I say...   the 80's are back, indeed!

Ahhhh, that makes sense.

Do you take time to record each drum individually? Or just steal from the actual performance?

I've done the latter at times-- but just to use as samples when I'm f'ing around with Reason.

I spent a good bit of time editing tom tracks recently because the bleed between fills was adding a lot of mud once we compressed them as a subgroup. When he actually hit the toms it wasn't so bad.

There would have been a ton of false triggers anyway because the snare bleed made it almost impossible to gate the toms-- so I reckon apptriga would have had the same issue more or less right.

[scott volthause]

Alright, so after schmutzing around with Aptrigga for about an hour, I feel like it's going to come in useful some of the time.

I liked that it was quick to set up and get running on.

The things I didn't like is that the trigger filter section seems a little twiddly. I'm sure with time and experience it'll become easier to use, but on a kick track with snare bleed, it was difficult to tweeze out the snare attack using the built in filter, so some false triggers on the kick track seemed to occur occationaly. Pre-treating the track with a RenChannel gate made this a non issue, and if you're going for blending samples with original drum sound, having RenChannel ahead of the sample is good anyhow since I would like to pre-treat the original drum sound before the sample is added.

However, that puts me in another bind, in that the sample, then, needs to be pre-treated before I load it into the trigger, or add yet another instance of RenChannel (or something else) to treat the sample... but them I'm treating the original drum sound again. That's no bueno in my book, since I'm sure the sample and original drum sound will need varying degrees of treatment, and I'm going to group the drums and treat them again later anyhow.

I suppose that's a downside of any sample-replacement program, but since this is the first time I've used one, I'm just sayin...

This does open a lot of doors, though, especially to sample some of my previous drum tracks that I really liked the sound of, and being able to slide those into another project where the drum sounds didn't really bring me joy.

So a big fuck you to Fibes for giving me something to waste time on while mixing. You're a sweetheart!

kidding.

oh yeah, if anyone has a recommendation for kit samples, I'd love to start building a library of sounds.

[Fibes]

scott volthause wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 13:06

1The things I didn't like is that the trigger filter section seems a little twiddly. I'm sure with time and experience it'll become easier to use, but on a kick track with snare bleed, it was difficult to tweeze out the snare attack using the built in filter, so some false triggers on the kick track seemed to occur occationaly. Pre-treating the track with a RenChannel gate made this a non issue, and if you're going for blending samples with original drum sound, having RenChannel ahead of the sample is good anyhow since I would like to pre-treat the original drum sound before the sample is added. 2However, that puts me in another bind, in that the sample, then, needs to be pre-treated before I load it into the trigger, or add yet another instance of RenChannel (or something else) to treat the sample... but them I'm treating the original drum sound again. That's no bueno in my book, since I'm sure the sample and original drum sound will need varying degrees of treatment, and I'm going to group the drums and treat them again later anyhow. 3So a big fuck you to Fibes for giving me something to waste time on while mixing. You're a sweetheart! oh yeah, if anyone has a recommendation for kit samples, I'd love to start building a library of sounds.

1. The input gain and threshold are important too. Get the hard hits almost peaking and set up your threshold accordingly.

2. Can you run Apptrigga on an aux? In those cases where two treatments are needed that's what i do. the joys of PDC

3. Fuck you Fibes! One of my favorite things to say. Anywho there are some samples on the Marsh here, at osxaudio.com (the Big Daddy "pick the snare" contest) and a few other spots on the net too. PM me bro.

[scottoliphant]

i wonder if this say anything about the future of recording:
halfway through this post on phase in recording has turned into a discussion about triggering and sound replacing. For what it's worth, I found the earlier posts very insightful

[j.hall]

triggering plays a huge role in phase on a drum kit.

if you don't use triggers then don't worry about it.

if you do, check the kick drums and make sure you are still locked in and not loosing lowend

[TheViking]

scottoliphant wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 10:05

i wonder if this say anything about the future of recording

The future?   People have been using samples to replace drum hits for decades.   This discussion has been extremely helpful to me in understanding phase relationships between my miced signals and any samples that I may want to use in my recording process.

BTW - I tried that Vocalign technique but for some reason it's shifting all of my SR hits around.   Is there a certain spacing that you use, Iain?   Can I just move the hits around manually?   That would probably be pretty time consuming, right?