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Author Topic: Phase.  (Read 8469 times)

Fibes

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2006, 08:47:42 pm »

maxim wrote on Sun, 19 February 2006 20:19

fwiw, it's no biggie to flip the phase (or time align or whatever) in the mix after the event, as long as you haven't submixed (as dave points out)




To me getting the sound NOW is the most important thing. There are times when you aren't afforded the time you need to do everything but the drums are important since phase isn't all about time, it's about relative placement.
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Bernardo

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2006, 04:15:00 pm »

I also find myself reversing polarity on overheads a lot of the time when referencing them to the snare. Last time involved a Sm57 on the snare and a couple of Neumanns as OH´s.

On the subject of "what to hear for": when flipping polarity to find the best phase between OHs and snare mic, I often have to choose between having the snare fatten up in one switch position, but losing a bit of sharpness in the attack, or getting a more interesting attack sound, but losing pretty much all weight. I always go for the first option. Is this a normal compromise, or I should be more persistent in finding optimal placement before hitting the phase switch? Do you guys usually end up getting OH positioning that´s just night-and-day better than others, or is it always a compromise?

I usually have the same thing happening on toms / OH relationship (by hitting polarity switch on the tom mics), and sometimes I just like the low frequency-compromised version better, the toms stick out less, but they just sound more interesting, it´s as if they lose that "close mic" quality to them, and sound more real, even if not as fat. I also wonder if that´s a common compromise, or if I´m just not persistent enough in the positioning part of the process (though time is often not available to go anal on these matters).

btw, I always reference the OHs to the snare, finding the best-sounding mic of the rough-positioned OH pair, and having the other measured to be at the exact same distance from the snare (I tend to use A-B positioning), and then I go for the toms.

Also, when double-micing kick drums, I´m in doubt about something: I usually get near-perfect phase when using a "dynamic at the hole + LDC at a distance" combination, which makes for highly enhanced low end, when compared to a single dynamic at the hole. But at the same time, this makes for a somewhat stale, depthless attack, and I´ve been looking to get the kick drum attack sounding more interesting. I notice that in a lot of records I like (be it Albini-style drum recordings or that more produced, Pantera-style metal stuff) it feels as if there´s almost a doubled quality to the attack of the kick drum, as it it´s more than a single transient making for the sonic event. I wonder if anyone else hears it this way, and what have people found to make that sound happen in more interesting ways.

Sometimes it´s hard to know what to hear for when learning recording mostly from reading stuff and listening to records, as opposed to having seasoned pros actually doing things in front of you and getting to experience the nuts-and-bolts in the making. And the time to experiment is not there in a lot of instances, since I don´t own my own gear and I´m working on studio time paid by the band´s (usually scarce) money.
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Iain Graham

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2006, 05:44:47 pm »

Phase is frequency dependant, so if you're getting one polarity sounding great for, say, the decay of the toms, and the inverse sounding great for the attack, you may find that moving the tom mic a little gives you a good compromise on both.

It may also turn to shit.  Laughing

I have to say, when I double mic the bass drum (I say when, it's been every time for a while now), I use a Beta91 and stick it in the drum. It's only really getting me the sub lows and the attack. The tube LDC I usually use outside the drum gets me the rest.

I usually have the LDC about 18" away and build a little tunnel around it out of something. Blanket, sleeping bag, couch cushions, etc. Keeps the cymbals out of it a little.

Try sticking the dynamic in the drum rather than at the hole. I look at the 2 drum mics as capturing different parts of the kick drum sound, rather than getting 2 similar sounds that are both good.

As for the "double attack" thing that you're hearing, it's probably some kind of sampled bass drum playing with the live drum. Either triggered as the drummer is playing, or added using sound replacer. Or spotted on the hits in grid mode in the DAW.

It's pretty common to add to the live kit sound with samples afterwards.

Mind you, it it's Mr Albini, it won't be a DAW.

HTH,

Iain
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j.hall

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2006, 05:54:03 pm »

Iain Graham wrote on Tue, 21 February 2006 16:44


It's pretty common to add to the live kit sound with samples afterwards.



this is when paying close attention to you drum tracks for phase takes on new meaning.
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Iain Graham

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2006, 04:00:17 am »

Totally. If only sound replacer did as well, it would save at least another half hour's work of inverting and vocaligning the samples onto the right place.

Iain

*reminded to check the reason loops in a few tunes on the album I'm working on"
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TheViking

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2006, 12:02:37 pm »

I thought that was Sound Replacers big claim...   completely in-phase drum sound replacement?

I've been turned on to the Aptrigga application which is a VST plug that I use in PT with a VST to RTAS wrapper.   It works very well.   Fibes knows a lot more about it and has been using it longer than I have.   Aptrigga and I are, however, still dating.   I'm not sure if I trust it completely yet.   I'm still getting a handle on the controls and the 'feel' of the thing.

Are there phase issues with drum replacement applications in general???   I never noticed it being that bad with SR or Aptrigga, but maybe I just don't use it enough.
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Fibes

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2006, 12:54:01 pm »

Apptrigga rocks if you have the samples to use with it.

Soundreplacer looks like some crack whore compared to Apptrigga and Apptrigga is priced like a CW whereas Sound Replacer is priced like an expensive date with no pay off.

All Misogynistic remarks aside once you get the hang of Apptrigga you can get sample accurate replacement with 7 samples or velocity layers (not three)and be able to blend your sounds together on the fly.
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Fibes
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TheViking

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2006, 01:14:16 pm »

Don't get me wrong, I love Aptrigga in comparison to SR.   I just haven't had much time to really dig into it.   It will rule once I rule it!!!

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Iain Graham

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2006, 02:10:58 pm »

Sounds like I need to try it. Of course, that involves remembering we have a vst to rtas wrapper, and getting the correct version installed.

Vocalign and inverting the SR'ed channel works well for me though.

Iain
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Iain Graham

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TheViking

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2006, 03:34:56 pm »

Iain,

In case you ever want to go for it.   To get Aptrigga working for me it cost less than $130.

The wrapper I got was the FXpansion VST to RTAS wrapper.   Bought it from Sweetwater for $80.   I've started to enjoy a bunch of free VST plugs as well that I would have never been able to try without the wrapper.

The Aptrigga software I bought and downloaded from the Apulsoft website for like $45 I think.

http://apulsoft.ch/aptrigga/index.php

So for under $130 you can have a great replacement tool for your DAW.   I think SR is like $300 or more.

Just thought you might be interested.

Tell me more about this VocAlign process you do...   I'm interested in how that works.
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scott volthause

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2006, 04:17:15 pm »

How does this compare to drumagog?

I've never used any sample replacement program on my daw, but I've been tempted and curious.
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Fibes

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2006, 04:46:18 pm »

scott volthause wrote on Wed, 22 February 2006 16:17

How does this compare to drumagog?

I've never used any sample replacement program on my daw, but I've been tempted and curious.



Dunno

It's 45 bucks.

It works like a champ.

Hell it's so sensitive you can trigger of the peaks of a sine wave.




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Fibes
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scott volthause

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2006, 06:50:45 pm »

Cool. I think I'll try it.

As for 'common practices' with trigger aps, do you ever pre-treat a signal (such as pre-eq to boost the hell out of kick beater click) to get cleaner triggers? Or do you find the internal filter of Aptrigger is sufficient?
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NelsonL

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2006, 06:52:10 pm »

What about snare rolls?

How's that work?
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scott volthause

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2006, 07:05:46 pm »

or flams?
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