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Author Topic: Phase.  (Read 8468 times)

j.hall

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Phase.
« on: February 14, 2006, 03:34:00 pm »

ok people, i'm going to climb up on my soapbox here.

i've been getting completely hammered with work (which is great, i'm loving it!).  i've got sessions coming in from all over the place.

some tracks are great, some are ok, others are crap.  one common bond between all of them are major phase issues with the drum kit and stereo mic'd sources.

you tracking guys out there need to start paying attention!!!!!!!!!!

i've got notes from a band saying, "we love the bass tone from the tracking sessions, but there isn't much low end, can you fix that or are we screwed?"

i take a look, got two mics on the bass cab, totally out of phase and both are at unity on the mixer.  GOOD GRIEF, you didn't notice that while tracking???????????

i get kick drums with two mics all the time......out of phase, ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!

overheads are typically some what out of phase with kick and snare, but when they are out of phase with each other......that's bad.

don't stereo mic a guitar solo out of phase cause it sounds cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pay attention people, some phase issues are expected.  all those mics on a drum kit, you just an't possibly get it perfect.

horrible over sights are getting old fast!

*climbs down from soapbox, and heads back into mix room*
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NelsonL

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2006, 04:38:31 pm »

Dude, plugins fix everything... there's one for crankiness called prozac.

http://www.tritonedigital.com/products.htm#phasetone
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John Ivan

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2006, 05:12:04 pm »

Yeah,, eh'

That's why I do Bass with a DI and one mic. I even check that. My drums on the Cape thing were ok for the most part, I think,, Ryan?? OK?

Anyhow,we DO need to be careful about this. I have to admit that I come from the "FTMS" camp but, there's a limit to how whacked out one can let the stereo Field get..

OK, we'll behave..... Twisted Evil
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mcsnare

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2006, 05:27:07 pm »

Getting the phase right on everything during tracking is sometimes tough. There is the hurry up lets record pressure and then sometimes it's just damn hard to hear what is corect polarity in some control rooms. If the tracks are separate it's no big deal to fix it later when there is less pressure and hopefully a more accurate control room/monitor situation. That's why if I am at all unsure, I don't submix stuff during tracking, that's when you could dig yourself a phase hole.
Dave McNair

Iain Graham

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2006, 06:11:08 pm »

Good point well made. *borrows soap box*

I've had a couple of things come in for mixing that have been horrible as well. Bad phase relationships between mics suck. Thank god for DAWs and the ability to slide things about 1 sample at a time. It's still time consuming and a total pain in the arse though. It's worse when it's shitty mics badly positioned, but some people just should not be recording. At All.

I have to say, I always double mic the kick, and I always slide the mic outside the drum back to line up with the inside mic. I just like the low  mid you get outside the drum, so I tend to use only that portion of the outside mic, I really treat it like 1 mic eventually.

I also hit as many polarity buttons as I can when I'm bringing a kit up. How many people fail to realise that the hi-hat can be out of phase with the overheads?? or the toms?? of that the top snare mic is out with the overheads and they should flip that one and not the bottom mic?? Come to that, how many people just  flip the bottom mic cos that's what you do??? even though it's not close in either state and they should get off their arse and move the bottom mic a bit???

More to the point, how many actually check that kind of thing??

I would make some point about people being too clueless to hear these things, but given the general public think certain singers are good singers when they blatantly can't hold a feckin note, never mind people who are supposed to know better not hearing something as basic as all the arse end dropping out of their recording when they bring both mics up.

*returns soap box, heads to bed to not sleep for 3 hours having just finished a session, yet being fuckin exhausted*

Iain
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scottoliphant

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2006, 07:52:35 am »

i think a lot of new people to recording don't really know what to look for and / or don't have a set of monitors decent enough to hear the difference. The most audible phase issues to me that I discovered early on where the horrible swishy thing cymbals do if your overheads are out of phase (and this is doing a 4 mic set up, so the overheads where a big part of the sound). Somewhere around that time i started flipping polarity on the kick and discovered that the bass was dramatically increased / decreased. There is no reason why someone who has been doing it for a while should have huge phase issues though =) maybe it's all part of the "in the box"  mixing and daw thing, people feeling like they don't REALLY have to worry about phase, the mixing guy with pro tools will do that for them

j.hall

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2006, 11:19:35 am »

mcsnare wrote on Tue, 14 February 2006 16:27

Getting the phase right on everything during tracking is sometimes tough. There is the hurry up lets record pressure and then sometimes it's just damn hard to hear what is corect polarity in some control rooms.



see, this is something i can live with, and i fully except while i'm tracking.  

i'm talking specifically about a blatant lack of attention to detail and/or education.  if you have two mics on a bass cabinet, you should be maticulously checking the phase of those mics.  with practically every one recording to DAW's it phase issues should really be kept to a minimum.

add a DI to that chain and you can expect some problems.  that's life.

left overhead 180 out of phase with the right, that's bad!

Quote:


scottoliphant wrote:
maybe it's all part of the "in the box" mixing and daw thing, people feeling like they don't REALLY have to worry about phase, the mixing guy with pro tools will do that for them



i fully expect to fix some phase problems at mix.  i want the maximaize the low end in the kick drum, and just do an overall look at what i'm dealing with.

the things i'm finding have led me to this thread.

doubled vocals, 180 out of phase.................that had to be intentional!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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jimmyjazz

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2006, 12:04:33 pm »

Quote:

doubled vocals, 180 out of phase.................that had to be intentional!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


???

How can two separate tracks of two different events be out of phase with each other?  (I realize they'll have a high "content correlation", and will tend to chorus, etc., but I don't think of that as phase per se.)  Are you saying somebody tracked a vocal with two mics?
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Fibes

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2006, 12:20:45 pm »

Hey uh, lets not get into that phase and polarity shell game here.

I'm guessing that some of the time the 180 degrees shit is wiring issues.

That and dumbass.

Quitcherbitchin and get to mixin.

That's what they pay you for.


Hhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahaha!index.php/fa/2373/0/
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Fibes
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j.hall

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2006, 01:53:45 pm »

fibes, why don't you and optimus prime concentrate on defeating the decepticons..........

yes, there were either two vocal mics or the guy was just insanely accurate and flipped the phase on the second pass.  either way, i was surprised to see it.
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Fibes

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2006, 02:01:20 pm »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 15 February 2006 13:53

fibes, why don't you and optimus prime concentrate on defeating the decepticons..........



We have, but unfortunately the Decepticons play dirty and even when defeated refuse to admit defeat. They have taken their ball and have gone home to the comfort of the deceptions of self commonly referred to as the mega-ego.  


I just don't want yer minions to get embroiled in semantic errors.

How's that auto tune working for ya.

BTW we're having fun here; wanna come over?


index.php/fa/2374/0/
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Fibes
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j.hall

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2006, 02:03:15 pm »

you look good in a cowboy hat!
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Fibes

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2006, 02:07:47 pm »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 15 February 2006 14:03

you look good in a cowboy hat!


I wish i looked that gud I be takin the pickshure.

Seriously even my wife:

index.php/fa/2375/0/

and her friend know that polarity is absolute.

Just like fun goes with Mad Dog 20-20.
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Fibes
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TheViking

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2006, 07:01:48 pm »

Um...   wow!

I've heard of things having multiple uses but that's a little extreme, don't you think, Fibes?

I want to say thanks for sharing...   but I don't know if that's really true.
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craig boychuk

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Re: Phase.
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2006, 05:10:43 pm »

Hmmm...toilet seats aside...



I must say this:

Muthafuckin 3 to 1 rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It'll save your ass.


scottoliphant wrote on Wed, 15 February 2006 06:52

i think a lot of new people to recording don't really know what to look for



This is so true.


Quote:

and / or don't have a set of monitors decent enough to hear the difference.



This I don't believe to be true. You can ALWAYS tell the difference. If you can't tell the difference, then either the sources you are checking are well enough in phase, or you don't know enought to tell the difference. IMO, IME.


Here's an easy way to check phase relationships. Most people, even the newest of noobs can hear the difference:

Solo the tracks in question, say kick and overheads. Flip the phase on the kick. Flip it back.  Repeat as often as necessary to distinguish a difference (if any). Which ever position yields the most low frequency content is correct. Repeat with every element of your drum setup, or whatever you're micing.

Obviously on a snare drum there's not a ton of "low end" per se, but you'll be able to hear that the "meat" of the sound drops out when things are out of phase.

With drums in particular, it is important to check each mic against every other mic, in every combination you can think of.


-craig











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