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Author Topic: I.M.P 4 discusion.  (Read 23345 times)

floodstage

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Re: I.M.P 4 discusion.
« Reply #195 on: July 07, 2006, 04:51:40 pm »

Hey, do we get to hear the song the drums were recorded for originally?


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garret

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Re: I.M.P 4 discusion.
« Reply #196 on: July 07, 2006, 05:22:43 pm »

scott volthause wrote on Fri, 07 July 2006 16:24

I have failed. I humbly bow before the leader and participants in this audio quest to ask for your forgiveness.




Your contrition appears to be genuine.

For your penance, you must now listen loudly to the Ethel Merman Disco Album, and dance around your house/apartment wearing vinyl pants.  With the shades open.

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scott volthause

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Re: I.M.P 4 discusion.
« Reply #197 on: July 07, 2006, 05:28:20 pm »

oh god.

i'll post a submission by tomorrow, i promise.
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Juergen

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Re: I.M.P 4 discusion.
« Reply #198 on: July 07, 2006, 09:48:34 pm »

chris haines wrote on Fri, 07 July 2006 13:04

thanks floodstage for the kind words.  I thought everyone was going to rip on me for the AC/DC sample...




are you talking about those bends?

The spashing of the cymbals...i really liked the idea of what was being played, but it was just really splashy. So this whole time, I had this "make it louder! no wait, turn it down!" thing going on, through out the whole process...
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Juergen

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Re: I.M.P 4 discusion.
« Reply #199 on: July 07, 2006, 09:53:25 pm »

[quote title=garretg wrote on Fri, 07 July 2006 13:19]
chris haines wrote on Fri, 07 July 2006 13:04

I like really dry drums (evil I know), so it was a fun challenge to mix such a roomy set of tracks.

-G


Dry drums evil? I normally like to go with roomy, but this time around I thought "i should make them really dry."

never quite succeeded.
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garret

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Re: I.M.P 4 discusion.
« Reply #200 on: July 07, 2006, 10:16:09 pm »

Juergen wrote on Fri, 07 July 2006 21:53


Dry drums evil? I normally like to go with roomy, but this time around I thought "i should make them really dry."

never quite succeeded.


Well, I think there's a camp of engineers that really likes the ultra roomy sound, throw a sm58 up in the corner of the room and hey, that's the sound.   I worked with a drummer who was hysterical, indeed he wanted the drum mix to be 90% the hallway mic.   And I wanted to throw out that track, cause it was just a mash of confused reverberations.

I love the sound of a really dry, unnatural, close miked kit... 70s pop, steely dan, etc...  course I also love motown drum sounds and phil spector, so ack maybe I do't know what I really like.  heh.

-G
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TheViking

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Re: I.M.P 4 discusion.
« Reply #201 on: July 08, 2006, 02:08:33 am »

Thanks guys...   it's really awesome to hear distinctly different ideas come out of this odd tuning and drum performance.   I've really enjoyed listening to all of the submissions (so far - I hope there are more on the way).

A little background on the drum tracks...   The drum tracks were recorded back in September, 2005 here at Viking Studios.   The band is Seven Head Division from Rochester, NY, a three piece indie outfit that did some heavy touring in the late 90's and then settled into our local scene here with moderate success.   We're getting ready to cut final vocals for the record soon but I will try to find a rough mix of what we have for the song so far and post it for you guys to hear the original tune.

The drumset itself is an Ayotte custom set with a Ludwig maple snare.   Pictures of this set from this very session are on our MySpace page.   The drummer is Andy King, member of this band and also fill in touring drummer for the rock band Project 86.

My live room is a work in progress.   It's factory space that I'm still learning how to control.   Splashy is an understatement.   Its downright harsh at times.   Since this recording we've thrown up some absorbtion and diffusion and that seems to be helping.   I hesitate in getting really 'into it' there since I may be moving into new space sooner as opposed to later, so...   there you have my lame-assed excuse for the splashy drum tracks.   LOL.

Seriously, thanks for using them.   Any suggestions or comments on the drum tracks specifically would be a huge help.

http://www.sevenheaddivision.com
http://www.myspace.com/sevenheaddivision
http://www.vikingrecording.com
http://www.myspace.com/vikingrecording

Enjoy!

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chris haines

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Re: I.M.P 4 discusion.
« Reply #202 on: July 08, 2006, 06:16:59 am »

Juergen wrote on Sat, 08 July 2006 03:48

chris haines wrote on Fri, 07 July 2006 13:04

thanks floodstage for the kind words.  I thought everyone was going to rip on me for the AC/DC sample...




are you talking about those bends?




put the intro to back in black in the breakdown in the middle before the chorus, with the first guitar chord pitched down and first...
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chris haines

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Re: I.M.P 4 discusion.
« Reply #203 on: July 08, 2006, 06:44:58 am »

so, I expected that with an exercise like this, I would have walked away thinking that drummers actually contribute more to songwriting than I normally credit them for, but I think that after hearing the diversity of the submissions, it's actually had the opposite effect on me.

I always cut the drummer in on writing credit if they are in the room playing while I'm writing, 'cause I do consider it a collaborative process, and I think that I wouldn't be making the choices that I'm making if I wasn't playing with the drummer at that moment.  I'll tweak and finish without their participation, but if they were around at the inception of the tune, they always get credit from me.  This of course differs from walking into the rehearsal room with completed melody lyrics & chord progressions which imply bass lines and drum arrangements...

so...when you're working with established drum tracks which imply a rhythmic base for the song, but leave you open with regard to melody, lyrics, and chord and song structures...where does that leave the drummer as a writer...?  If you strip the drums away, you have 4 totally different songs in this case, I wouldn't suspect that any of them originated from the same drum tracks...and yet they did.

though purely academic at this point, it would be interesting if the the drummer is not a writer on the original recording his tracks were taken from and ends up being one on all of these submissions.  Ethically I'd cut him in, but I wouldn't expect everybody to agree with me about the degree of the drummer's participation in creation of the song...If a song ultimately breaks down to melody and lyrics, where does the drummer fit in as a writer if he/she doesn't participate in those areas...?  I find this to be a grey area even after having spent 5 years doing music publishing professionally in the early to mid 90s.


sorry for the left turn regarding intellectual property rights, but I think it's related to the thread and interesting...

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Juergen

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Re: I.M.P 4 discusion.
« Reply #204 on: July 08, 2006, 03:41:53 pm »

chris haines wrote on Sat, 08 July 2006 06:44




sorry for the left turn regarding intellectual property rights, but I think it's related to the thread and interesting...





Indeed. I'd think - let's say in a rehearsal situation - it would depend on what role the drums of any instrument played in the creation of the song. If we're speaking of simple accompaniment, which sometimes is the right thing for that song ('implied'), i wouldn't see why to give the musician that happened to be playing that part writing credit, whether the song was in the process of being finished at the time or whether this person just happened to walk into the band and added a part that didn't exist before.

I'd guess it's very similar in this situation. If the song was being done in the tuning, and the drums later just chopped up to be made fit, I'd think the person doing that editing would have played greater role than the drummer in the beginning, creating new parts and gettnig a larger share of songwriter credits. Which I think wouldn't be too different from someone else in the band telling the drummer what to play, where to put the fills, and the drummer being this totally passive musician.

In my case though, I accepted the drums as telling me how the song would be, and I only censored the drums in a couple of places, but i based my whole arrangement on the song form that the drums dictated, making the drummer part songwriter. I think it would be ethical and fair to give him credit, but not if the drums were used differenly while songwriting.

Maybe i am way off here. (i did not work in publishing except for a temp job)
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floodstage

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Re: I.M.P 4 discusion.
« Reply #205 on: July 08, 2006, 04:23:22 pm »

I've wondered if one of the songs turned into something, where should writing credit go?  Would the drums get any?

I know the drums put me in a mood, and I also know my song would have sounded very different with different drums, but I don't know if it's co-writing

hmmmmmm
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Juergen

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Re: I.M.P 4 discusion.
« Reply #206 on: July 08, 2006, 04:24:49 pm »

garretg wrote on Fri, 07 July 2006 22:16

Juergen wrote on Fri, 07 July 2006 21:53


Dry drums evil? I normally like to go with roomy, but this time around I thought "i should make them really dry."

never quite succeeded.


Well, I think there's a camp of engineers that really likes the ultra roomy sound, throw a sm58 up in the corner of the room and hey, that's the sound.   I worked with a drummer who was hysterical, indeed he wanted the drum mix to be 90% the hallway mic.   And I wanted to throw out that track, cause it was just a mash of confused reverberations.

I love the sound of a really dry, unnatural, close miked kit... 70s pop, steely dan, etc...  course I also love motown drum sounds and phil spector, so ack maybe I do't know what I really like.  heh.

-G


You're just liking what sounds nicest to you at the moment of desicion.
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garret

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Re: I.M.P 4 discusion.
« Reply #207 on: July 08, 2006, 10:14:05 pm »

chris haines wrote on Sat, 08 July 2006 06:44



sorry for the left turn regarding intellectual property rights, but I think it's related to the thread and interesting...




Those are indeed very interesting questions.  I've thought about that stuff before too, and always hesitated to post asking because I don't want people to think I'm some prima donna who thinks every little exercise I participate in is going to yield a masterpiece.

But I did think about that before working on this track.  After having written dozens of tunes, I now know that when I work on something, unless I completely give up, I'm going to end up with something at the end.  Will it be a great tune, I dunno... but it will be something.  It's sort of like buying a house... if you're not sure you want to buy a house, don't go talk to a realtor.  Once you start meeting with a realtor, you're going to end up buying a house.  

So I know this was unlikely (for me) to be a throwaway exercise.  My thinking was, go head, write a genius tune, and work out the credit details later if it happens.

If I were to release my tune as is (with these drum tracks), what would I think appropriate?  Honestly, I'd probably figure out who the drummer is, and I'd offer a credit (drumming on track #7 by john doe) and a retroactive studio session fee.  Maybe the key thing is that my song arrangement is not the same as the original drum track.  I really just thought of those drum tracks as a drum loop library, and created a new song out of the loops.

-Garret
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TheViking

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Re: I.M.P 4 discusion.
« Reply #208 on: July 08, 2006, 11:54:56 pm »

garretg wrote on Sat, 08 July 2006 22:14

If I were to release my tune as is (with these drum tracks), what would I think appropriate?  Honestly, I'd probably figure out who the drummer is, and I'd offer a credit (drumming on track #7 by john doe) and a retroactive studio session fee.



Um...   Andy King...   not John Doe.

I thought we went over this...   gaheeeeez!
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garret

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Re: I.M.P 4 discusion.
« Reply #209 on: July 09, 2006, 12:07:43 am »

TheViking wrote on Sat, 08 July 2006 23:54


Um...   Andy King...   not John Doe.

I thought we went over this...   gaheeeeez!



Doe! er Doh!

Scrolling up....   Ah, yes I see. Andy King. Thanks for the great drumming, Andy!  : Cool

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