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Author Topic: My First Time In A For-Real Studio  (Read 15325 times)

SirDonut

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Re: My First Time In A For-Real Studio
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2006, 06:29:08 PM »

Wiggins,

We are not trying to imply that you are a bad engineer or don't have a concept of what you are doing. I just feel that in this situation, with this set of circumstances, with this very limited timeframe, you would be better off going with the house engineer. I think the product will be better because you will be less stressed and more focused on the large picture of what needs to be accomplished rather than the nuts and bolts of everything. The house engineer will move faster than you can, put out fires faster than you can, and know the eccentricities of the room better than you. He will be making the patches, yet you can still maintain tons of creative control over the sounds by being the producer.

Pro audio is indeed a frustrating game. But I don't think paying 400$ for one day of learning will be as fruitful as paying 400$ for a the best recording possible that you still have producer credit on.

Look, this is just my opinion. If you wanna do it, do it. prove me wrong.  Smile  
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Ronny

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Re: My First Time In A For-Real Studio
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2006, 07:01:11 PM »



I'm going on my 39th year in commercial audio. When I get contracted to mix in a studio that I'm not familiar with, I always ask for an engineer that knows the gear and the studio to assist. Doesn't have to be the chief engineer. This can be an assistant engineer or even a long time intern that has worked the gear and knows the idiosyncrasies and particulars. I'm with everyone else that says to not go into this project blind. Take the producer role, and you can tweak too, but the setup and the room you are not going to be familiar with. This can take days, weeks or months. You'll save money by having at least an assistant eng. helping you. The assistant will eliminate the typical trial and error that you'll go through tracking and mixing in any studio that you aren't familiar with and with gear that you are using that you don't own yourself, or have never used before.  
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hargerst

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Re: My First Time In A For-Real Studio
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2006, 07:08:31 PM »

wiggins wrote on Tue, 31 January 2006 16:03

How discouraging.

I know you guys are right, but I still feel like I'm trashing the only chance I'll get to work there. I still feel like I am being a "wuss", for lack of a more potent explative.

I still plan on talking to Jim tonight about exactly how "hands off" he'll be, or rather how "hands on" I'll be.

Meeting this much opposition to the idea has really made me think, really made me doubt myself. I'm often a sucker for self-doubt, so forgive me for trying to do something about it for once. Wulp, not this time, Wags, back to "you suck, dont even try!"

You've all given sound, honest advice, and I truly thank you for it, I couldn't ask for more. But, in general, please think about how discouraging the higher-ups in recording are to lower-downs like me. Think about it sometime. It's fucked up, 'innit?

-Wiggins

You misunderstand my concerns.  If you and the group feel that you can do a better job than the engineer who's familiar with all the equipment, by all means, go for it. If nothing else, the group's comfort level should not be ignored. If Jim stays around to answer questions, you shouldn't have too much trouble.

I got the impression from your first post that if you engineered, Jim was outta there.
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Harvey "Is that the right note?" Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio

M Kearns

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Re: My First Time In A For-Real Studio
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2006, 08:05:58 PM »

Two things to think about here.

Having spent over 25 years primarily as a studio musician, and the last 6 years split 20% studio musician 80% engineer, when I'm playing on a session the last thing I want to deal with is engineering. Quite often I won't even notice what gear is in the room when there to play. To me they are 2 different mind sets.
Yes I can & do engineer & play on some projects, but even in my own room if the budget allows, I will hire an engineer while I'm doing extensive playing sessions. Part of this is due to the physical realities of engineering & playing Hammond or acoustic piano tracks. A lot of running back & forth there.

About Zero Return.
I've done playing sessions there quite a few times.
The room lay out is not very condusive to playing while engineering. To get to the main room you have to go out the back of the control room, through the machine area, anddown a hall with stairs. Even tracking guitar or bass from a line sent to an isolated amp is not going to be comfortable due to the studio design. There is a very disconnected feel between the control room & the tracking room.

Also as some one else mentioned, the room is a little funny sounding, at least outside the sweet spot in front of the console. It may be great in the sweet spot, I've never sat there.

It's a cool room. Rob & Jim are well beyond competent engineers and easy guys to deal with. If you decide you must engineer yourself, they aren't the type that are going to leave you twisting in the wind. Keep in mind they know the tracking room & lean on them for some mic placement if you're smart about it.
Also look out for those Genelecs during mixdown. They'll fool you if you aren't used to working on them.

As far as intern positions in Atlanta, try some places besides Southern Tracks, Tree, & Jimmy Z's place. Personally I have an open door policy to interns. Get at least 3 or 4 calls a month people asking. I always say yes & put the responsibility back on the person to call me whenever they want to come in. In the last year not a single prospective intern has actually followed up. For clarification, my studio isn't a home/basement kind of place, it's a very large, well equipped business. No Neve or SSL console, but good gear & more importantly good musicians doing work that is valid & out in the marketplace.

Ok, so it was 3 things to consider.
There is no 4th thing.

Marty
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scottoliphant

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Re: My First Time In A For-Real Studio
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2006, 09:00:33 PM »

wiggins, i'm not a pro by any stretch, for what it's worth, was giving you my opinion on what i would do / have done in similar situations. recording is stressful, it's awesome to have help if you are IN the band AND pushing the buttons. find an engineer to help out (maybe at this place) to make the record you want. there are engineers out there, hopefully a majority,  that will work with you to make sure your vision gets put down to tape. I don't think too many folks here are downing on you, it's hard without talking face to face to get a sense of what someone is saying and how they are saying it. You can still have a VERY active role in making a record without actually pressing the record / play button on the remote.

maxim

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Re: My First Time In A For-Real Studio
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2006, 09:31:10 PM »

are you playing on the record?

what instrument?

personally, if i'm both playing and engineering (unless it's a set & forget, like vocal overdubs), i find that i can't give 100 % to any one job

so choose wisely
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jetbase

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Re: My First Time In A For-Real Studio
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2006, 11:31:30 PM »

dude, go for it! death or glory, right? remember, recording is easy, mixing is hard. as long as you have a good grasp on signal flow & have your day planned well you should be right.

glenn
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scottoliphant

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Re: My First Time In A For-Real Studio
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2006, 12:10:49 AM »

recording for me is the hard part =) a well recorded (well performed) session is a breeze to mix. the "fix it in the mix" mentality has probably done more harm than good, in my opinion (although there are folks who are very good at mixing).

electrical

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Re: My First Time In A For-Real Studio
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2006, 12:49:05 AM »

I'm pretty familiar with both Zero Return and with Jim and Rob, the two guys who built it. It is an interesting mix of weird and classic.

All studios bear the fingerprints of the people who built them, and this is true in the extreme here. Jim ran the original Zero Return studio out of a tiny house in the woods, and it was outfitted with a bunch of second-hand equipment put together in a truly idiosyncratic way. For a start, there was no patch bay. Any time you wanted to patch anything in, you had to find cables and crawl around behind everything. It was a real one-man operation. This is emblematic of Jim's tinkering nature, and he tends to find his own solution for every problem. It is to his credit that he has been able to build an operating studio from such small scraps to start with, and he rightly takes pride in it.

In the current setup, there is s proper control room, but things are still set-up the way Jim and Rob thought would work for them, not according to convention, and there is quite a bit about it that would leave most engineers scratching their heads. The equipment is an odd assortment, and you really do have to work with what it gives you rather than trying to make it into something else.

That said, the acoustics are nice, there's a good collection of high-quality microphones, and I have had a good time when I have worked there.

If I were looking for an opportunity to get my feet wet as an engineer in a studio, especially if I had limited time, I would not try to do it there. There is simply too much about it that is unique to the place to have any relevance to any other studio environment. It could be both frustrating and un-enlightening. If I weren't used to making-do in whatever studio I am dropped into, I would not have had as good a time as I have had there in the past.

I'm not saying the studio isn't capable of making good records, far from it. I have heard many excellent recordings from there by Jim and Rob and others, and the records I've done there I've been happy with. My reservation concerns your novice status and a place that is put together to work in ony one specific way. A way that Jim and Rob have gotten ingrained in, and that they can get around in effortlessly.

If I were interested in having a recording done of my band there, speaking not as an experienced engineer but as a novice and band member, I would have Jim do the engineering and use the opportunity to ask questions and see how he works. If I wanted to run the studio myself, I might favor a place that didn't have so many quirks.

I hope you do go to Zero Return, because I like the place and I like the home-made nature of it, and I think you can learn a lot from the experience. I would not reccommend taking the reins yourself until you've seen how the studio can be made to work.

And be sure to have Jim's sweet tea. There is none like it on earth.
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wiggins

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Re: My First Time In A For-Real Studio
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2006, 10:58:10 AM »

Guys guys guys, Jim's going to be there, like I said. Of course I can't push buttons and play guitar at the same time. You don't think I'd let him jet on me? You don't think he'd jet on me? I know the guy, we're friends, he knows my situation.

This is how I do it at my place:

1. Mic everything. Make sure it sounds good.
2. Get George to play my guitar rig to make sure it sounds good.
3. Get one of the people that are always at this house with half a brain to sit and hit "record" and "play" and then "stop" when we ask them to from the tracking room, which is a good 60 feet away. There's no visual contact between the tracking room and control room.
4. Mix the levels using the faders. EQ if it needs it.
5. Burn to CD.

We do a pretty good job this way. I don't have any problems "changing hats" when I pick up a guitar or sit at the desk. I don't see how the basic process will be any different, except that everything is a kabillion times nicer, and the dude that built the place will be there to rescue me when something fucks up.

Another thing: Someone earlier suggested I get one of the bands that records at my place to go to ZR instead.

What band in their right mind is going to take that kind of chance on me if I haven't actually worked there?

MY band is the only one that comes to mind.

So, here's what I'm going to do: Sunday afternoon I'm going to drive downtown. I'm going to open the door to Zero Return, say hey to Jim, and we're going to go have a beer. We're going to talk about these things. I'm going to tell him everything I just told all of you. I'm going to tell him to be straight up with me. He's going to be straight up with me. Then, I'll decide.

Forgive me for being persistent, but I feel like this is the only chance I'll ever get. I'm not exactly well-off, and neither are my parents. I can't afford school. I can't afford gear.  I'm friends with Jim, I'm not friends with anyone else that has a nice analog recording studio in the area. This is my chance.

Again, thank you all for your advice, seriously.

hargerst

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Re: My First Time In A For-Real Studio
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2006, 11:05:37 AM »

wiggins wrote on Wed, 01 February 2006 09:58

Guys guys guys, Jim's going to be there, like I said. Of course I can't push buttons and play guitar at the same time. You don't think I'd let him jet on me? You don't think he'd jet on me? I know the guy, we're friends, he knows my situation.


Sorry, but this was what you said originally:

Quote:

 I had been talking on the phone to Jim Marrer, and when I called him to book the day, I put it out there:

"I'd like to do as much as I can engineering-wise by myself, if I can. I'd just need you to be around so I don't fuck anything up."

He said "Well, I usually prefer one person or the other engineer it, no co-engineering, it just makes hassles. I'm totally fine with you doing it, but any mistakes are your own, of course."


That sounded to me like he was saying "You do it, or I do it."  If he's gonna be there to help, I don't see any problem.
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Harvey "Is that the right note?" Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio

Eric Rudd

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Re: My First Time In A For-Real Studio
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2006, 11:42:35 AM »

Be careful what you ask for...you might get a response or three!!!

I say, go for it.

Just a couple things though....I noticed in one of your posts how you delineated how the time would be spent....  3 songs, 'x' number of minutes, etc. Am I hearing what's not being said in that you have a rough budget and time frame in mind for the project and your planning the session out accordingly? (e.g..... we've got money for 6 hours, we're only doing three songs, shouldn't take any longer than that....) If you're engineering in a room you don't know very well, you might prepare yourself for your costs to increase again by half. I'm not saying you'll go over, but I can promise you your stress level will go up as your time remaining goes down. Be prepared mentally (and fiscally) for that circumstance. Allow yourself some pad.

Secondly....prepare, prepare, prepare. Visualize everything. Since the studio is providing "an assistant," get from him a complete mic list and outboard list. Discuss with him where the best place is for the drums, bass, guitars, etc. Trust their recommendations tempered with your experience. Plot out your mic choices on an Excel sheet, channel inputs, outboard if needed (compressors, external EQ...but keep it simple). Email it back to the assistant, saying, "what do you think of this? Do you see any landmines, or ways things can be improved?" You'll get feedback like, "That LA2A sounded like crap last week, I wouldn't use it until we have it looked at."

Structure as many elements of the session ahead of time as you can. Then those decisions are behind you when the inevitable 'unforseen' rears its head.

Finally, don't worry about the credit. Go into this session prepared so that you can, heaven forbid, enjoy the experience...and not have a stroke.

You'll do fine.

Best,
Eric
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PRobb

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Re: My First Time In A For-Real Studio
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2006, 12:09:19 PM »

jetbase wrote on Tue, 31 January 2006 23:31

dude, go for it! death or glory, right? remember, recording is easy, mixing is hard. as long as you have a good grasp on signal flow & have your day planned well you should be right.

glenn


Wow- I don't even know where to start with that one, I just know I wouldn't want anyone with that attitude doing any recording. Mixing badly recorded stuff is a hell of a lot harder than mixing well recorded stuff.

What Steve said was very interesting. I have worked in eccentric "science project" type studios (the dear departed Sorcerer Sound comes to mind) and, even though I have years of experience, the first session or two are always a bit difficult. And I'm not trying to play at the same time!

Also, whose paying? If it's your nickel, you can use it as a learning experience. If the band is paying, let the pros do it and watch carefully and learn as much as you can.

And why do you keep saying this is your only chance?

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xonlocust

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Re: My First Time In A For-Real Studio
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2006, 12:36:48 PM »

wiggins wrote on Wed, 01 February 2006 09:58

Another thing: Someone earlier suggested I get one of the bands that records at my place to go to ZR instead.

What band in their right mind is going to take that kind of chance on me if I haven't actually worked there?

MY band is the only one that comes to mind.



i dunno, but i've managed to do it somehow.  the bands i work with want to work with me for whatever reason (it's NOT cuz i have lots of credits or records under my belt, cuz i don't - i'm a young guy like you), but they trust me when i say, "well, you liked what we did when we recorded in the practice space, it'll be a lot better in the fancy studio."  somehow they bought it and believed it.  and it does sound better IMO.  and thiers too. they were ecstatic about the process too.  they worked with a familiar face/friend who knew the inner workings of thier band, but still upgraded quality by working in the fancy studio.  win-win situation.  of course i'd worked in that studio as a player numerous times before and knew the staff from those sessions who helped me *immensely* in the process.

it just seems as if you're doing so much out of your space which seriously seems more than the amount i'm doing, and i've been able to talk someone into it, you should to. out of all those bands, you've got to be getting some repeat customers/friends.  maybe i'm a smooth talker, i dunno. someone else would have to answer that for you.

but this is a separate conversation from whether or not you yourself should run this particular session.

hope that helps some & best of luck whichever way you go.

wiggins

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Re: My First Time In A For-Real Studio
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2006, 12:56:24 PM »

PRobb wrote on Wed, 01 February 2006 12:09



And why do you keep saying this is your only chance?




It's probably not my only chance, but its the only one that's guaranteed, and staring me in the face. As of July of this year, I'm not so sure about the status of my band as an active, recording entity.
I don't feel that it's a good idea for me to sit around and wait for someone else to take a costly chance on me engineering their record there in the future. It could take years, it could take decades, and it could possibly never happen at all. It doesn't make sense to say "oh well, my day will come" - from what I gather of this industry, that kind of additude will leave me, 10 years from now, smoking weed in my basement screaming "I was robbed! I was robbed!"

I don't want that to happen. Nobody wants that to happen. But, thats what keeps running through my head.

I'm going to do my damndest to leave this alone till I sit down with Jim. It really killed my day yesterday, and I'm not going to let it this time.

ciao, a presto!

-wiggins
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