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Author Topic: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image  (Read 16351 times)

t(h)ik

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Re: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2006, 03:57:38 PM »

rankus wrote on Sat, 28 January 2006 20:11

scottoliphant wrote on Sat, 28 January 2006 06:58

Quote:

Steve, I hate to say it but your slightly contradicting yourself.

I'll bet you don't hate to say it. It's something of a pastime in these parts. And no, I'm not.


hah
some folks here in this forum do seem somewhat bent on catching steve saying something they can wave around later...


And that is REALLY REALLY un-cool when you are guest in a mans house....


Guess cause it's easier to find him...

LOL
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henchman

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Re: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2006, 04:57:57 AM »

electrical wrote on Sat, 28 January 2006 10:24


I only hope that others reading this get the point that conventional production has the producer as the final decision maker, with his ideas implemented from the top down, and what I'm espousing is allowing the band to occupy that position, with nobody telling them they are wrong about their own music. That doesn't mean nothing ever changes, but that it is directed by- and instigated by- the band. Do you see the distinction?



I guesss the way I have seen the role of producer, is to make suggestions, and contribute ideas, as well as push the band to be "better".

When I have worked with artists, that's what i do. I contribute ideas. However, it is still up to the band and artists to decide wether the idea presented is used or not.

I always find it's pretty clear, because the good ideas stay, the bad ones go. And if you work with artists who are open to that kind of session, usually I amd the band/artist have found that it  has made for a better product.

And I will say, the times where the band has taken the stance that I am only there to record them, the results have been less than satisfying. Especially for the band.
And who is blamed when the final product sucks?

Yep. That's right. The guy sitting behind the console.

Brett Mixter Rader

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Re: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2006, 05:54:06 AM »

henchman wrote on Sun, 29 January 2006 09:57

electrical wrote on Sat, 28 January 2006 10:24


I only hope that others reading this get the point that conventional production has the producer as the final decision maker, with his ideas implemented from the top down, and what I'm espousing is allowing the band to occupy that position, with nobody telling them they are wrong about their own music. That doesn't mean nothing ever changes, but that it is directed by- and instigated by- the band. Do you see the distinction?



I guesss the way I have seen the role of producer, is to make suggestions, and contribute ideas, as well as push the band to be "better".

When I have worked with artists, that's what i do. I contribute ideas. However, it is still up to the band and artists to decide wether the idea presented is used or not.

I always find it's pretty clear, because the good ideas stay, the bad ones go. And if you work with artists who are open to that kind of session, usually I amd the band/artist have found that it  has made for a better product.

And I will say, the times where the band has taken the stance that I am only there to record them, the results have been less than satisfying. Especially for the band.
And who is blamed when the final product sucks?

Yep. That's right. The guy sitting behind the console.



So, I check back on this thread this morning and I see that it has evolved into a discussion of the role of the producer.

I see it this way.
The producer is there to make suggestions when needed and to keep the band out of my way the rest of the time. Its really very simple.

Ronny

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Re: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2006, 08:52:27 AM »



It really depends on the studio experience of the band. If they are old pro's, no problem and suggestions are less needed or not needed at all. However, with a young band new to the studio, many are self-produced, have no guidance and don't have the session experience. With this type of band, suggestions from the engineer can be very beneficial, but it's not a black and white thing with every band of either offering suggetions or not, each band and situation is different and you just have to play it by ear.
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Adam P

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Re: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2006, 12:44:37 PM »

Quote:

And who is blamed when the final product sucks?

Yep. That's right. The guy sitting behind the console.



That's ridiculous.  The quality of the song will stand or fall on its own merit, or it should, at least.  I can't think of an instance where I ever thought to myself "boy, I'd really be into this record if only the production wasn't so bad."  On the contrary, having grown up listening primarily to "punk" music (where production value isn't usually the top priority), I've heard plenty of records where I was blown away simply because the songs are great, despite how the production may sound (excepting records that are so poorly recorded that the entire sound is garbled and unintelligible).

If the songs are good, people are going to like them whether they were in done in a pro studio or on a Portastudio.  If they suck, well then thats it, they suck, and no amount of producer or engineer polishing is going to make them not suck.  
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John Ivan

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Re: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2006, 02:58:19 PM »

electrical wrote on Sat, 28 January 2006 10:24

"I only hope that others reading this get the point that conventional production has the producer as the final decision maker, with his ideas implemented from the top down, and what I'm espousing is allowing the band to occupy that position, with nobody telling them they are wrong about their own music. That doesn't mean nothing ever changes, but that it is directed by- and instigated by- the band. Do you see the distinction?"

Yeah, I can dig it.. The above is very well stated.

Being a multi instrumentalist who gets called to "think for the band" sometimes, all I can say is,, don't mess with it unless they ask you to. That's the simple rule I follow.

True story::

About six years ago, I had a local band come in that had a sound that I thought was pretty cool. It was hard driving rock music that bordered on AC/DC and Allman Brothers.. The drummer was not digin' his sound and I asked what he didn't like about it. He said that although it's viewed as un-hip, he likes single headed toms. I was just Engineering NOT being Mr. Producer and I told him that if that's what he likes, FUCK what other people think sooooo,, Off came the bottom head's on the tom's. It was a sound. His sound. It was way different than any Drum sound I had recorded ..

This is not producing or over stepping.All I did is let him see that it was his/the bands record and if He liked single headed tom's, then he shouldn't let "Modern Drummer" Magazine produce the record for him.

When someone calls me to produce, I am responsible for the record completely. I take Ideas from the band and try to use them and there is rarely a problem but,,, If I say the bridge is to long,? then it's to long.

I don't have just one way of working. I think it boxes me in to say I wont ever work one way or another.

Ivan.....................................
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henchman

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Re: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2006, 06:43:15 PM »

Adam P wrote on Sun, 29 January 2006 09:44

If they suck, well then thats it, they suck, and no amount of producer or engineer polishing is going to make them not suck.  


Yes, we all know that.
But who do you thinkt he band is going to blame for their shitty record.

Not themselves.

electrical

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Re: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2006, 07:11:54 PM »

There is way too much emphasis on the final product here. Many of you seem to think there is a "standard," for how good a record should be, and fear that you will be held accountable if a record isn't good enough. You are afraid it will "suck," and don't want to be blamed for it. Please, please, if you do nothing else in your career, get over this fear.

Operating from fear of sucking will prevent you from recognizing the other, more important aspects of a session. The record may end up "good" in your eyes, or it may "suck," but you have only limited control over this, and you should honestly stop focusing on this. Ultimately, such judgements are not even yours to make.

In poker and other disciplines with an element of chance in them, this is called "results-oriented thinking," and it is to be rooted-out. If you happen to win a hand at cards, great, but that isn't the object of the game. The object is to make decisions that increase the likelyhood of success and decrease the likelyhood of having problems. Making good decisions is the object of the process. The results will be what they will be, but the process, you have complete control over that.

If you do something stupid, and the results are accidentally good, you should not use that as a validation of the stupid decision. You should recognize how fortunate you were. If you do something smart, and the results are bad for any of the reasons they might be bad, that also does not negate proper technique. It means you have more work to do, that's all.

The record you are working on will be good or not based on an infinite number of variables. The only ones you can affect must be taken seriously, and you must apply your skills to the situation at hand, not as an absolute method. Nothing is ever right all the time, so don't insist on anything.

For my money, the most important aspect of a session is how comfortable the band is with the process. The band has to feel that they and their music are being taken seriously. This requires attention to detail, willingness to adapt to circumstances and the stamina to go the extra mile. Make the band comfortable with the process, listen to their wishes, take them seriously, and the session will be a success, whether you think the record "sucks" or not.

Don't worry about whether or not a record "sucks." Many records that "suck" are masterpieces or small successes in the lives of those who made them. Give every record a chance to be that kind of a success at least.
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Ron Steele

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Re: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2006, 07:22:18 PM »

In other words..........


































be a robot.
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Samc

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Re: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2006, 07:37:44 PM »

Ron Steele wrote on Mon, 30 January 2006 00:22

In other words..........

be a robot.


Gee Ron, it's really strange how I read the same post and came away with the exact opposite conclusion??

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hargerst

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Re: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2006, 08:47:06 PM »

Steve,

That's a brilliant post and observation.
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John Ivan

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Re: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2006, 12:18:34 AM »

Samc wrote on Sun, 29 January 2006 19:37

Ron Steele wrote on Mon, 30 January 2006 00:22

In other words..........

be a robot.


Gee Ron, it's really strange how I read the same post and came away with the exact opposite conclusion??





Yeah, me too. How does someone take "be a Robot" from Steve's insightful post..

I guess when I'm arranging a tune for myself or, working within my band to write/arrange a tune, we are automatically making decisions that we think Don't suck. I try to do the same thing when someone asks me to work on their tunes. They are saying  " I need to trust you and want you to decide if things are working. "

I understand what you are saying though and think you have a healthy way of looking at all this.

Steve, when you are being a band member or choosing a mic or are in any way actively involving yourself in music or music production, are you not making choices that you like??

I'm trying to put what you wrote above into better perspective. Very thoughtful post indeed.


Ivan.........................................
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Ron Steele

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Re: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2006, 12:50:30 AM »

Look, Steve is preaching that you should have an emotional disconnect to the music.

What's the fucking point to that?

Music is all about emotion.

The reality is, who do you want to work with?

Somebody who is passionate and connected to what your trying to accomplish,

or somebody who doesn't want to offer an opinion either which way?



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John Ivan

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Re: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2006, 01:10:01 AM »

Ron Steele wrote on Mon, 30 January 2006 00:50

Look, Steve is preaching that you should have an emotional disconnect to the music.

What's the fucking point to that?

Music is all about emotion.

The reality is, who do you want to work with?

Somebody who is passionate and connected to what your trying to accomplish,

or somebody who doesn't want to offer an opinion either which way?






What?? How does the idea that we should tread lightly and remember that it's not our music when we are engineering translate into an "emotional disconnect".. I agree that we should allow the band to decide how things are going to sound regarding the music coming from their hands and their minds. This does not disconnect me at all.

I also believe there is a place for Producing and many bands seek out another set of ears and someone to help them make decisions. This person becomes another band member for the period of time that the record is being made. I see this as totally valid. One could point to this band and say "well, then they are not complete" or "they are not ready to record" but I think we need to leave that decision up to them too..

Again I say, there isn't only one way for me. I see all these ideas as being completely valid and a choice that bands need to make.

I'm never disconnected from music I'm listening to. I've mixed stuff I wasn't in love with and it came out fine.

But hey,, I'm an Artist.. We Rule ;-}  !@#$%^&*
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electrical

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Re: Documentary recording vs. a band's skewed self-image
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2006, 01:55:23 AM »

Ron Steele wrote on Mon, 30 January 2006 00:50

Look, Steve is preaching that you should have an emotional disconnect to the music.

What's the fucking point to that?

When you are emotionally involved with the music, you are not doing your job completely. Enjoy the record (or say it sucks) when you buy one at the store. You're supposed to be working now. A plumber should be working on installing the toilet, not assessing whether or not it matches the tile.

Quote:

Music is all about emotion.

I suppose, in the abstract. But I'm not making the music. I'm trying to ensure that it is recorded properly. My job is about making sure the bass drum isn't clipping, making sure the talkback isn't too loud, making sure the drummer's sightline is okay, making sure the guitar mic didn't get knocked out of position... All the things the band can't do for themselves. I can't do all of that and worry about the emotional content at the same time, especially since I may not even grasp what it is supposed to be. I trust that to the people who know it best: The band who dreamed it up in the first place.

If you're thinking that that's the easy part, well, I guess it isn't that easy for me. I have my hands full trying to keep the session on track without playing Artistic Overlord at the same time. I'd rather kill one bear than wound two.

Quote:

The reality is, who do you want to work with?

Somebody who is passionate and connected to what your trying to accomplish,

or somebody who doesn't want to offer an opinion either which way?

If you're asking me, I want someone with his mind on the job. I don't want my doctor wasting his time thinking about my politics. My politics are important to me, and I can worry about them myself. That's what I want to accomplish. Him, I want him to read the X-ray, which I cannot do.
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