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Author Topic: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal  (Read 14787 times)

Vertigo

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Re: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2006, 10:20:42 AM »

The latest Nevermore sounds like pretty typical Sneap to me - triggered drums and re-amped recto's. That's not to say that the mix isn't great or appropriate for the style, but it sounds pretty far from "real drums in a real room" to me.

[Edit - Oops, sorry George - I misread your post. Ignore the above, I agree with you]

-Lance
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carne_de_res

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Re: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2006, 10:21:30 AM »

thanks for all the replies so far.

in the past i've tried to take a good sample of the real kick and snare on the kit and re-use them as triggers without having to resort to an external sample library.

it kinda worked, so maybe i'll keep going with that in the future.
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redfro

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Re: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2006, 10:59:37 AM »

craig wrote on Thu, 26 January 2006 00:13

Here's a neat trick with a de-esser that works well on kick drum in some situations.... snip


Great idea. Wish I would have thought of it when I was recording drums for this last project...would have saved me a TON of work. Oh well, the next project in the door is going to be kinda the same deal, so I'll definitely give it a whirl.

Thanks!
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craig boychuk

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Re: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2006, 02:23:47 PM »

electrical wrote on Thu, 26 January 2006 01:09


...Hi-hats, I shit 'em... Truly satanic instrument.



Agreed, fuck.


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rankus

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Re: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2006, 04:11:09 PM »



I always try to think of metal drum sounds as similar to a stapler (for stapling two pieces of paper together)...

Imagine a stapler being hit really fast and hard ... ka-chuk, ka-chuk, ka-chuck ....

I even sampled a smaller handheld plastic sewing machine that I play for some of the metal heads... "see, your drums sound just like a sewing machine..."  (they are usually not impressed;)

My point? .... um.. well, I guess I don't have one.... Confused

I agree with the poster that suggested two kik drums on seperate tracks when using Drumagog to trigger... I just went through hell on my last metal project, trying to get that damn thing to track the blasts on a single track...
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George_

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Re: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2006, 11:18:39 PM »

Quote:

I agree with the poster that suggested two kik drums on seperate tracks when using Drumagog to trigger... I just went through hell on my last metal project, trying to get that damn thing to track the blasts on a single track...


that's only a compression/EQ & Soundwork-thing for me if it does work or not. I use only triggered kickdrums. the Sourcefile is sampled from a DW-kit. I use ha smack and a booooum sample loaded into battery (NI). (adapted from MARSH)

trick 2 is internal reamping. just make a nuke-group and send the things you dont hear on this group again (with the sends). that works great!(adapted from mixing eng. handbook)

trick 3 is: make a highcut on the kick at about 5khz (depends), but the range between 240 and 370 (depends on the mix, on the sample, blahblah) with 3 to 6dB and add those 3 to 6dB to the bass. (learned from TIK, thanx!!)

trick 4 is: highcut the guitars at 9 to 12khz (thanx ross hoghart)


that works nicely:) oh, and I am doing only demos so my produced farts sound better but it's still a fart;)

cheers
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George Necola

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Re: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2006, 07:06:51 AM »

rankus wrote on Thu, 26 January 2006 22:11





My point? .... um.. well, I guess I don't have one.... Confused




LOL...

I think it is a reiteration of Slipperman's point.

Fukk man, Desser huh?  Thank you.  I will try it but I think as S-man points out it seems obvious that it will take away the attackedness....

There is no way to do this shit with one bass drum....unless they wanna pay me six bills a day to edit....FUKK THAT!

Maybe some of you are getting six bills a day anyway...

Q: What is wrong with automation?  

I mean when I run tape the drummer has to be good enough to keep up, but when I have twenty-four mics on his kit it's in Nuendo.....

Melodic Part <snip> Blast Beat! Grab the fukken volume tab and jerk it on up there! <snip> Guitar solo...

Am I missing something...

I don't know if I will ever get good at this shit but without the room you lose all the Black Sabbathness and Slayerness....

I can't imagine trying to do an album where the goal is Nevermore...

Thanx to everyone great thread...

lemme nough


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Vertigo

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Re: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2006, 09:35:09 AM »

BTW - for you Nuendo users, the Nuendo multiband comp was made for death/black metal kick drums. Try it out - pop one on your kick, start with the FM radio preset, and experiment a bit until you get the sound you want. Just don't go too crazy with the upper bands or the point of the kick will sound like paper. This is a great trick for getting the snap to come through while maintaining a tight low end on the kick. Check out the last Misery Index album (featuring Kevin Talley) for an example (the kick was tracked with a Beta 52 through a Red-1).

-Lance
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xonlocust

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Re: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2006, 11:09:06 AM »

Slipperman wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 13:53

<snip>
If you plan on fulfilling the common production expectations of the genre(s) you are going to end up with some sort of sample replacement/reinforcement  scheme.
<snip>
I have been recording this type of music since it's inception 2 decades ago and I have never found anything which results in a truly satisfactory workaround for this common problem without resorting to a legion of variations on the aforementioned 'triggering/sampling' tom-foolery.



SM-

i'm curious, could you talk a little bit more about how this was done in your pre-DAW days?  would you basically record the trigger live to tape? as well as the acoustic kick and blend to taste?  

i have absolutely no experience in the genre but play drums, so it's interesting to me.  i've enjoyed reading the responses of how contemporary DAW users approach it but clearly the genre has been around longer than DAWs.

thanks,
nick

craig boychuk

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Re: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2006, 03:28:09 PM »

sixtiksix wrote on Fri, 27 January 2006 06:06



Fukk man, Desser huh?  Thank you.  I will try it but I think as S-man points out it seems obvious that it will take away the attackedness....





Ah, but it won't...

...if you add the HF back in with an eq after the desser.

This is a crucial step, otherwise your kik will indeed sound like poo.

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Bernardo

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Re: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2006, 05:25:09 PM »

Klokkern wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 13:53

exept from Darkthrone (of course.... The recorded AND mixed the 2 albums I did for them in 26 an 31 hours respectivly.... The shitty sound they have is well thought through....)


Holy shit, you did Darktrhone records? Which ones?
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Nama

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Re: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2006, 07:03:28 PM »

dikledoux wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 18:04

I have a question...  If the typical methodology requires sample replacement or some such thing, why don't most of these drummers use electronic drums?  I guess that wouldn't look as hardass in live situations, but it would eliminate a ton of pain in the recording process, no?


You answered your question. Looks are important.
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Fenris Wulf

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Re: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2006, 07:10:47 PM »

craig wrote on Thu, 26 January 2006 06:13

Here's a neat trick with a de-esser that works well on kick drum in some situations. Using the HF band of a multi band comp will work too, and it may even be more useful than a de-esser if it gives you lots of control over the crossover points.

Alternatively, I've discovered that I can get all the "click" I want without EQ, by using a transient designer followed by an LA2A (plug-ins). It actually creates high frequencies out of nothing. Remember, time domain and frequency domain are two names for the same thing.

On one occasion, I was able to rescue a very badly recorded kick with tons of cymbal leakage. I band-passed it so that it was just a dull thump, and created an attack with the aformementioned technique.

When it comes to drum sound manipulation, Cubase/Nuendo is rather brilliant, because you can run "strip silence" on a kick or snare track, select all the hits at once, and apply Envelope, Normalize, complex Fade curves, or even varispeed to all the hits at once. Thus, I can manipulate the drum hits as if they're samples.

To reduce the hat leakage on the snare, I use a dynamic EQ technique. I run "strip silence," mult the track, lowpass the second track, and adjust the fade handles so that the first track fades into the second track on every hit. You need a linear-phase EQ and Nuendo-type editing to do this.

Alternatively, I might use an envelope follower with the kick or snare modulating itself. It creates a nice, clean sound with a good attack. Unfortunately, it exaggerates any inconsistencies in the drummer's hitting and you have to follow it with an L1.

So the upshot of all this is, I hate samples and I go to great lengths to avoid using them.
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t(h)ik

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Re: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2006, 06:25:17 PM »

Fenris Wulf. wrote on Sat, 28 January 2006 01:10

craig wrote on Thu, 26 January 2006 06:13

Here's a neat trick with a de-esser that works well on kick drum in some situations. Using the HF band of a multi band comp will work too, and it may even be more useful than a de-esser if it gives you lots of control over the crossover points.

Alternatively, I've discovered that I can get all the "click" I want without EQ, by using a transient designer followed by an LA2A (plug-ins). It actually creates high frequencies out of nothing. Remember, time domain and frequency domain are two names for the same thing.

On one occasion, I was able to rescue a very badly recorded kick with tons of cymbal leakage. I band-passed it so that it was just a dull thump, and created an attack with the aformementioned technique.

When it comes to drum sound manipulation, Cubase/Nuendo is rather brilliant, because you can run "strip silence" on a kick or snare track, select all the hits at once, and apply Envelope, Normalize, complex Fade curves, or even varispeed to all the hits at once. Thus, I can manipulate the drum hits as if they're samples.

To reduce the hat leakage on the snare, I use a dynamic EQ technique. I run "strip silence," mult the track, lowpass the second track, and adjust the fade handles so that the first track fades into the second track on every hit. You need a linear-phase EQ and Nuendo-type editing to do this.

Alternatively, I might use an envelope follower with the kick or snare modulating itself. It creates a nice, clean sound with a good attack. Unfortunately, it exaggerates any inconsistencies in the drummer's hitting and you have to follow it with an L1.

So the upshot of all this is, I hate samples and I go to great lengths to avoid using them.



Uh,

Holy Shit!

Thanks

I guess it will take about a week to figure all this out....throw in the de esser....see you guys next year
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Slipperman

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Re: recording snare and bass drum for "speed" metal
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2006, 11:19:26 PM »

xonlocust wrote on Fri, 27 January 2006 11:09



SM-

i'm curious, could you talk a little bit more about how this was done in your pre-DAW days?  would you basically record the trigger live to tape? as well as the acoustic kick and blend to taste?  

i have absolutely no experience in the genre but play drums, so it's interesting to me.  i've enjoyed reading the responses of how contemporary DAW users approach it but clearly the genre has been around longer than DAWs.

thanks,
nick



Oh boy.

What a GIGANTIC can of wormies.

Well... I'll say this...

IMAGINE something and we did it.

Super early days.... Spiking 'pips' to tape with gates after the fact. Record on seperate track(s).

Drive Publisons, Wendall Jr's.

I have fond memories(I jest) of laboriously spot erasing false triggers and the dreaded 'chatters' off the 2" master. Even flipping the tape over and bouncing thru digital microdelays(like the Infernal 90) to get the pips supposedly 'realigned' with the original signal on the jobs with the budget for such madness.

Later....

Contact triggers taped or glued on membranes.

Driving Eventides, TC's.

Later still...

Ddrum brains. DrumKats. D4's off membrane or shell triggers.

Record the outputs to tape in addition to the real sounds.

Even more latency tom-foolery since some of the units had a tendancy to work slower in generating sound files during the denser sections of drumming.

And let's not forget MIDI.

Lock a hardware, or later a software, sequencer to SMPTE and generate triggers during or after recording(as described above). Err to the side of caution... 'collect too much' and later troubleshoot all the false/late bullshit in MIDI and regenerate with a SMPTE offset or MIDI track slip to eliminate latency.

Really got a budget...?

Rent a 3324 and totally lose mind.

Ohhh God.

The BAD OLD DAYS.

I could go on for weeks.

So I won't.

Hope this has been helpful.

Best regards,

SM.

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