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[Pingu]

And if so is it noticeable enough to worry about.

[maxim]

i'm not sure if the sound difference is that significant or even noticeable (see lynn fuston'd shootout), but there are other things about the daw which determine my choice

in my case, it was the interface and the ease of editing that swung me towards dp

my favourite ever daw was deck (and, imo, the best sounding), but, unfortunately, it didn't keep up with the times

i cried for that one

[maxdimario]

From experience in the early days of daw's I will say that there most certainly was a difference between logic, cubase, pro-tools and motu.. easy to hear.

as the programs evolve and computers beome faster the differences become more slight as one would expect, and it's harder to hear the differences. Which doesn't mean there aren't any sonic differences.

but an older program  on a slower computer running at 16/44.1 sounds worse than a new program at 16/44.1 on a newer computer...Just had a friend switch from logic 4.8 to cubase sx for example.

this only proves that, although both systems should be ideally reproducing the waveform perfectly, in fact there are technical issues which influence the sound quality that go beyond mix engine bits, sample/bit rate etc.

there is also the fact that computer code is inaccessible, and too complex for us end-users to disassemble and study or modify.. so only direct experience with the product will be of any value: love it or leave it.

perfection does not exist, regardless of what people say about digital... it's been perfect from day one as far as the people who earn money from it are concerned.

on the up-side, if you choose a DAW as your primary recorder and mixer then you are probably much more concerned with edit-ability and recall than such fine distinctions in audio quality so the differences are probably not worth noting too much.


I wonder if anyone has found what daw works best for classical music or acoustic music.

[Greg Youngman]

If there's a difference, I think it's slight at most.

I just think it's a great time to be alive.  We've got some very powerful tools at our fingertips... things I could only dream of as a kid.  I like melding the analog past with the digital future.  What’s important is how you use these tools.  Don’t get too hung-up... get productive!

[RKrizman]

Out of 14 voters I'm the only one who thinks they're all the same?  You mean, sometimes 2 plus 2 equals 5?  So everybody thinks that Logic, say, might have better sounding math than Nuendo ?  If this is your basis for making decisions you should consider advancing to astrology or palmistry.

Have any of you guys ever checked this out in a controlled situation?

-R

[PookyNMR]

to answer your question, why don't you buy Lynn Fuston's DAW sum test CD and find out for yourself...

3daudioinc.com

[RKrizman]

PookyNMR wrote on Tue, 24 January 2006 18:46

to answer your question, why don't you buy Lynn Fuston's DAW sum test CD and find out for yourself...

If you're talking to me, you should know that not only have I checked it out but I helped create it.

-R

[maxim]

"Yes! There are differences which dictate my choice of DAW"

i think most people respond to this, because it's not just about the sound

[malice]

PookyNMR wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 00:46

to answer your question, why don't you buy Lynn Fuston's DAW sum test CD and find out for yourself... 3daudioinc.com

Lynn Fuston will not show you how said engines handles pluggins.

I think it summing audio with all faders to unity gain.

Very difficult to get an idea with these parameters. This cd is useless.

And yes; they are differences.

malice

[PookyNMR]

RKrizman wrote on Tue, 24 January 2006 17:28

PookyNMR wrote on Tue, 24 January 2006 18:46 to answer your question, why don't you buy Lynn Fuston's DAW sum test CD and find out for yourself... If you're talking to me, you should know that not only have I checked it out but I helped create it. -R

No, I was referring to the origianl poster.  I am familiar with your name!  

[PookyNMR]

malice wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 00:01

PookyNMR wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 00:46 to answer your question, why don't you buy Lynn Fuston's DAW sum test CD and find out for yourself... 3daudioinc.com Lynn Fuston will not show you how said engines handles pluggins. I think it summing audio with all faders to unity gain. Very difficult to get an idea with these parameters. This cd is useless. And yes; they are differences. malice

Yes.  It was purely a summing test as you can read on his forum.

I agree that different hosts handle plugs, delay compensation, etc, different.  I have yet to see a good scientific test yet.

If someone here were to take the same tracks use the same fader positions with the same plugs at the same settings I'd be more than willing to give a listen.  So far I have not seen such a thing.

[John Ivan]

RKrizman wrote on Tue, 24 January 2006 14:55

Out of 14 voters I'm the only one who thinks they're all the same?  You mean, sometimes 2 plus 2 equals 5?  So everybody thinks that Logic, say, might have better sounding math than Nuendo ?  If this is your basis for making decisions you should consider advancing to astrology or palmistry. Have any of you guys ever checked this out in a controlled situation? -R

No. I have not. Thing's are always out of control around here so, this is what I do. I put a piece of gear up and in about 30 seconds decide whether it's sounding the way I want it to.

I guess if I opened a bunch of files in a few different DAW's and did nothing at all to the channels, it would sound the same. If move something in Cubase though ,, anything,, It sounds worse than SAM. So in the non controlled environment that I work in, there are huge differences between DAW's, providing we are talking about using said DAW's to do audio work.

The differences are bigger than I thought they would be. Why test it?? Why test everything beyond the test that happens when you simply hear it? Do you stop and do a controlled test every time you grab a mic?? Not me.

Ivan...............................................

[malice]

PookyNMR wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 17:50

malice wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 00:01 PookyNMR wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 00:46 to answer your question, why don't you buy Lynn Fuston's DAW sum test CD and find out for yourself... 3daudioinc.com Lynn Fuston will not show you how said engines handles pluggins. I think it summing audio with all faders to unity gain. Very difficult to get an idea with these parameters. This cd is useless. And yes; they are differences. malice Yes.  It was purely a summing test as you can read on his forum. I agree that different hosts handle plugs, delay compensation, etc, different.  I have yet to see a good scientific test yet. If someone here were to take the same tracks use the same fader positions with the same plugs at the same settings I'd be more than willing to give a listen.  So far I have not seen such a thing.

You know, I always said to myself I should do this as soon as I have a bit of time.

I'll be curious too. As well as comparing TDM and native ...

The trick is to have the major DAW at your disposal, make a mix with pluggins that are exclusively available in every format, and try to get a way of copying some fader moves (cause that is also part of the quality of a daw, imo)

hmmm, interesting. I'm thinking Nuendo/Cubase, PT LE, PT TDM, Logic, DP ...

I'm sure we would be surprised by the results ...

malice

[RKrizman]

malice wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 12:13

You know, I always said to myself I should do this as soon as I have a bit of time. I'll be curious too. As well as comparing TDM and native ... The trick is to have the major DAW at your disposal, make a mix with pluggins that are exclusively available in every format, and try to get a way of copying some fader moves (cause that is also part of the quality of a daw, imo) hmmm, interesting. I'm thinking Nuendo/Cubase, PT LE, PT TDM, Logic, DP ... I'm sure we would be surprised by the results ... malice

I think you in particular will be surprised by the results.

You should do it.

-R

[RKrizman]

ivan40 wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 12:09

[ The differences are bigger than I thought they would be. Why test it?? Why test everything beyond the test that happens when you simply hear it? Do you stop and do a controlled test every time you grab a mic?? Not me. Ivan...............................................

You're right Ivan.  I,( and probably most people), prettty much make all my decisions by just listening and reaching my own conclusion, and screw the scientific tests.

But then this discussion becomes purely anecdotal and no general conclusions can be reached.  It doesn't mattter how the poll turns out, because the answer is objective, not a matter of opinion.  

-R

[RKrizman]

malice wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 12:13

hmmm, interesting. I'm thinking Nuendo/Cubase, PT LE, PT TDM, Logic, DP ...

Before you go to all the trouble to test all the platforms, you should just pick two and prove to yourself that there is in fact a difference.  Once you've demonstrated to youself that there is some basis for your premise, then you can test them all.  But until you find a single case in which there is a difference, why go to all the trouble.

Just trying to save you some time.

-R

[Guest]

Making an apples-to-apples comparison isn't exactly trivial.  I'd start with the same sound files on the different systems and do the same simple mix, minus plug-ins at first, to evaluate the mix engines.  Since the pan law implementations might be a factor, it would be good to pan some tracks full left-right and some half-way left-right.   It is also important to check gain change behavior, so the gain settings for the mix tracks should be moved from 0dB.

Then the mixed tracks can be compared bit-for-bit to look for any difference.  It would also be good to do a blind listening comparison to see if anyone hears a difference that is/isn't indicated by the data comparison.  I will volunteer to do this for Logic Pro and ProTools TDM (but I can't say when exactly we'll get to it.)  It'll make a good student exercise if nothing else.

So many variables, so little time...

-Jay

[RKrizman]

Jay, where yo been?  It's  been done, and done correctly, and there isn't an rch's worth of difference between any of the major players.

-R

[Ronny]

Yep, It's been done, but if you do your own tests and there are pan law differences, you'd play hell getting them on even par by half panning some and hard panning others. You really need to set pan law settings the same on all mixing engines that you compare.

[Guest]

I've been over at r.a.p. (and busy working: our building was renovated last year and I have to wire up 3 new studios and a small concert hall), which may explain why I haven't been aware of these proper investigations.  I may still do this but I don't think I expected much of a difference, having used both ProTools and Logic with similarly satisfactory results.

We are always looking for things to do to keep our DSP students busy...

We have had a bit of discussion about in-the-box versus analog mixing.  Have you guys done that already, too?  One of my students had an article in Tape-Op but we haven't done a real comparison.

-Jay

[RKrizman]

JayKadis wrote on Thu, 02 February 2006 11:39

I've been over at r.a.p. (and busy working: our building was renovated last year and I have to wire up 3 new studios and a small concert hall), which may explain why I haven't been aware of these proper investigations.  I may still do this but I don't think I expected much of a difference, having used both ProTools and Logic with similarly satisfactory results. We are always looking for things to do to keep our DSP students busy... We have had a bit of discussion about in-the-box versus analog mixing.  Have you guys done that already, too?  One of my students had an article in Tape-Op but we haven't done a real comparison. -Jay

Seriously?  Go over to Gearslutz and look around--it's all been pounded to death.  And check out Lynn Fuston's AwesumDawsum comparison CD, which many of  us participated in.  Or save the  trouble and don't worry about math differences between DAWs.


-R

[NoWo]

Hi,

if you just put a few audio tracks into Nuendo and PT-M and have 0 pan law both apps sound the same.
If you start touching the knobs or sliders of their delivered plugs you start to get an idea of that they are not equal sounding. You work different on both apps (and you end up with complete different mixes), that

[Guest]

RKrizman wrote on Fri, 03 February 2006 22:13

Seriously?  Go over to Gearslutz and look around--it's all been pounded to death.  And check out Lynn Fuston's AwesumDawsum comparison CD, which many of  us participated in.  Or save the  trouble and don't worry about math differences between DAWs. -R

Thanks.  That's good enough for me.  (I gotta get out more...)

-Jay