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[pg666]

Quote:

Yes, but some great records have been made like this out of necessity (ie...can't find the right drummer/other musicians, need to record & put it out) and might have never seen the light of day if the creative people/person writing the songs hadn't just plowed ahead...

oh i agree, although honestly, you could probably count the great ones on one hand. i hate to be mean, but go listen to the 'post your mp3s' section of the tapeop board and that's what 'multi-instrumentalist' projects typically sound like..

it is fun to do as a creative outlet, but to do it convincingly(imo) takes far more work than just finding better musicians to play with..

[scott volthause]

I'm feeling this pain right now, as the band I'm in is recording it's EP.

I play guitar in the band, but I'm also playing the role of tracking engineer, producer (whatever it is that it really implies?) and mix engineer.

The songs are fairly well rehearsed as they've been played out 100's of times by now, but there are still things that I'm finding NOW, that I should have found earlier... like slight inconsistancies with tempo, or a clammed kick drum hit. I can't believe I didn't catch them while tracking, but of course it stands to reason because while tracking I was thinking about how it *sounded* sonically, and not as focused on the performance.

So now I stress about *when* am I going to fix it? Should I re-track? Should I fix it in the DAW? Before or after bass overdubs? Definitely before vocal overdubs, but I'm in the middle of recording guitars...

Anyhow, yeah.

I'm learnig how to manage these things though, and figuring out a better *methodology* to doing it, and I think that's the crucial part of tracking, mixing or producing.

Ramble on.

[John Ivan]

pg666 wrote on Fri, 20 January 2006 13:33

Quote: Yes, but some great records have been made like this out of necessity (ie...can't find the right drummer/other musicians, need to record & put it out) and might have never seen the light of day if the creative people/person writing the songs hadn't just plowed ahead... oh i agree, although honestly, you could probably count the great ones on one hand. i hate to be mean, but go listen to the 'post your mp3s' section of the tapeop board and that's what 'multi-instrumentalist' projects typically sound like.. it is fun to do as a creative outlet, but to do it convincingly(imo) takes far more work than just finding better musicians to play with..

I agree with this. In my case, I've been waiting to do this for a long time and spent stupid sick hours on the instruments. I feel I can play the stuff as well as anyone I might call. I'm really doing it as a way to calm down. Life has been insane over the last few years and it's my little break from the real wold.

You are right though, if I didn't feel I could play the stuff as well as my first call drummer for instance, I wouldn't proly do it.

Ivan...................

[Beezoboy]

I think Pingu had some great advice. Me and a freind of mine took some time this summer and tracked our bands. The tracking was over 3 or 4 months mostly doing long weekends. It was fun and in a vacant old house where we never had to tear down or change the setup. Just turn on the gear and start tracking.

We got some good tracks laid down and then I moved to Maryland in October. Its now January and I am getting ready to start mixing. I feel refreshed and like I can start fresh on the tracks and really be objective and pay attention to what the mix needs.

I had a hand in song writing, played drums, tracked, produced and pretty much everything else. Someone else did hit record for me though while I was playing drums.

I think this was a great way to do it and it has worked well for us so far. Some people probably do better and can feel more focused doing it all in 14 days, but I am enjoying taking my time.

Beez

[smorgdonkey]

How about this
step #1 write it when you are most inspired.
step #2 critique it like it was someone else's and fix what doesn't 'cut it'
step #3 record it the best that you can.
step #4 mix it like it was someone else's and your task is to make it sound the best that it can sound.

I try to do things that way and at least I think it works for me.  

[John Ivan]

smorgdonkey wrote on Sun, 22 January 2006 00:28

How about this step #1 write it when you are most inspired. step #2 critique it like it was someone else's and fix what doesn't 'cut it' step #3 record it the best that you can. step #4 mix it like it was someone else's and your task is to make it sound the best that it can sound. I try to do things that way and at least I think it works for me.

Right on bro,, I dig your no nonsense approach .;-}

The thing is though,, you just named the four hardest things {IMHO} to do as a writer/player/engineer/producer person. The thing that tends to get us is the realization that we are listening to OUR OWN playing and writing. We are head strong about the ideas and have fragile ego's about our chops and aren't quite sure we have the mixing chops to get it done and so on.

One thing that really helped me, some years back is a wonderful friend who happens to also be an encyclopedic guitarist. He basically told me, " Look, you can play. Be honest about that. Understand who you are. Don't down play your reality as a player/mixer. Also, don't bullshit yourself into believing you can play stuff you can't. If you get stuck, go learn your way out of it or realize you wont ever play this thing or that thing and move on.. Being honest about who we are is key to making it work."

This has always been my biggest enemy. FEAR!!. Not believing in myself in some cases and thinking I'm " some hot shot" in others. I finally feel like I have an understanding of who I've become as a music person and this has helped me except my weaknesses AND my strong points. I can now relax and learn much more from others who have found some comfort in "their musical reality"..

Sorry I rambled again.. just my experience/journey into this thing.. It;s been a great ride and it's more fun everyday.. Lucky us!! we get to play music!!

Ivan........................................................ .....

[maxim]

time is your friend and a luxury that most studio based projects don't have

however it can also be a problem

walking away allows you to get a fresh outlook, which tends to disappear if you're stuck inside a project for too long

as for fixing mistakes, a lot of things can be fixed in the daw, inc early or late starts, clammed kiks etc

the only thing you can't fix is the 'feel'

and word of advice, fix each track as you go, before you overdub the others, otherwise you'll be in big big trouble

[malice]

maxim wrote on Sun, 22 January 2006 15:19

time is your friend and a luxury that most studio based projects don't have

I strongly disagree with that statement.

Being ready when recording is what it is all about. A great recording occures when you don't have to do 30 takes to lay your song. You have to stay fresh on the music you play. Time is not often a luxury. The only luxury time offers is when you can record a song when you feel like recording it.

I have more stories about never ending sessions turning into a fiasco than the opposite. A good band, with good musician, with their shit prepared and rehursed for no more than a week can track an album in no time.

Time is a vibe killer, imho

malice

[maxim]

mr moulin wrote:

"I strongly disagree with that statement.

Being ready when recording is what it is all about. A great recording occures when you don't have to do 30 takes to lay your song."

noone said anything about 30 takes

that sure is a vibe killer

no more than 3 takes is my rule of thumb

beuaty of having time on your hands is that if it doesn't work in 3 takes, you can walk away and regroup

there's more to making a record than recording

there's editing, overdubbing, mixing etc

i agree that some of these have to be done quickly, but having a luxury of being able to get a fresh outlook is great

this reminds of what mike stavrou told me cat stevens had told him:

"the difference between a good record and a great one is the amount of time spent in the studio"

the mythology of the 'quick hit' is, imo, the greatest factor responsible for the amount of mediocrity that hits our cerebra

[malice]

maxim wrote on Tue, 24 January 2006 15:06

"the difference between a good record and a great one is the amount of time spent in the studio" the mythology of the 'quick hit' is, imo, the greatest factor responsible for the amount of mediocrity that hits our cerebra

Does this statement works for the fifties or sixties recordings as well ?

Let's be serious for a minute, the hall of fame of music production is filled with songs recorded and mixed in less than one day.

I would agree, on a certain extend, that you can achieve wonders with time on a technical level and that the sound might gain from the amount of days you spent on a drum sound.

But the sound comes long after songwriting and performance in my book.

Let's be serious, I would qualify most of Miles Davis recordings "mediocre".

Even soundwise.

malice

[Invisible Member]

I can go both ways on this.

I agree with Malice but I also agree with Maxim.

From an Music Industry stand point doing it yourself is not efficient and you will end up losing money without an efficient methodology of creating the end product.

From a Artistic expression stand point where the music is not being done for the love of money, the process of writing tracking, mixing and performing is part of the exerience.

I love to see band who are prepared with rehearsed material come in and nail everything in one take and walk away with a good product that is marketable. Well trained musician who have thier skills honed...think wrecking crew...

But as an artist I like to fiddle about and try different things that probably wouldn't belong on mainstream radio.

Doing it all yourelf can be a vibe killer indeed. Last Saturday I was enjoying playing my guitar to a song I was working on when a drum part popped into my head. The vibe was good, lava lamps, candles and incense. I had some space on the tape that was loaded, bused an flipped what was needed, hit record, ran out of the control room, into the live room where the drums were, caught my foot on an extenstion cord leading to my disco-ball hanging in the live room and preceded to rip it from its mount causing it to shatter on the floor. Instant death of major vibe. I lost the will at that moment to record the drum part...

All that got recorded was a shattering noise...some wimpering...
and the sound of garbage going into a can.

I'll be ok...


Peace,
Dennis

[j.hall]

just to add another layer

i'm friends with a band who one member is an engineer.  he's actually pretty good.  they cut their first record themselves and had it mixed by a mixer.  it turned out really good.

they are preparing for another record now and have sworn to never track themselves again.

the secret club is half way into our second record's song writing.  we have three engineers in the band (out of 4 members).  we have all agreed to pay some one else to track our next record.

i'll be stupid enough to mix it.....but i'm not tracking it.

[John Ivan]

malice wrote on Tue, 24 January 2006 06:37

maxim wrote on Sun, 22 January 2006 15:19 time is your friend and a luxury that most studio based projects don't have I strongly disagree with that statement. Being ready when recording is what it is all about. A great recording occures when you don't have to do 30 takes to lay your song. You have to stay fresh on the music you play. Time is not often a luxury. The only luxury time offers is when you can record a song when you feel like recording it. I have more stories about never ending sessions turning into a fiasco than the opposite. A good band, with good musician, with their shit prepared and rehursed for no more than a week can track an album in no time. Time is a vibe killer, imho malice

Yeah, in a standard studio environment this is right on. When I do sessions for other people as a player, if we go past 4 or 5 takes,  the vibe starts to come apart. OTOH, when I'm working at home alone?? Well, just the fact that I'm working on original tunes with my own space and time is 200 percent vibe.. I can do way more takes using different ideas. Not more takes because I'm fucking it up but to look at different ideas.

For me, working alone is never a vibe killer.

[malice]

j.hall wrote on Tue, 24 January 2006 17:29

just to add another layer i'm friends with a band who one member is an engineer.  he's actually pretty good.  they cut their first record themselves and had it mixed by a mixer.  it turned out really good. they are preparing for another record now and have sworn to never track themselves again.

The story of my band. We hired a guy to record the second one.

Quote:

the secret club is half way into our second record's song writing.  we have three engineers in the band (out of 4 members).  we have all agreed to pay some one else to track our next record.

Well, even stupider here: we're four record producers... out of five members.
You do realise the discussions we can have.

Quote:

i'll be stupid enough to mix it.....but i'm not tracking it.

Well, I'll be mixing it too ...

I'm not sure it's going to be all that fun

malice

[malice]

ivan40 wrote on Tue, 24 January 2006 17:41

Well, just the fact that I'm working on original tunes with my own space and time is 200 percent vibe..

It's all about vibe brotha, ya spot on

Quote:

I can do way more takes using different ideas. Not more takes because I'm fucking it up but to look at different ideas.

You said it: you're using different ideas

What I find lame is 30 takes of the SAME idea, for the only sake of perfection.

THAT's the vibe killer among vibe killers.

(good thread )

malice