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Author Topic: write, play, track, mix...yourself  (Read 10448 times)

Fabricoh35

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write, play, track, mix...yourself
« on: January 17, 2006, 06:16:48 PM »

I know that most of you here are in bands and you end up doing all or some of the above.  Based on what I have heard you are very successful with it.

What are some of the things you learned about working on your own projects that allow you to be successful?  I feel like I stuggle at times because I'm too close to the whole thing.
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Pingu

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2006, 06:04:12 AM »

Hi buddy.

Id recomend
track the instruments as best qs you can.

Spend as much time as you have to on the recording.

Then  when all the tracking has completed get away from that song for a month or 2 maybe even longer.

Then mix it

Try a quick master after the mix.

Then leave it alone if you can for 2 or 3 months then master it.


I wish i follwed this advice myself.
This is probably why im shit.
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j.hall

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2006, 11:45:20 AM »

with the secret club i have to let go of what i play and what my focus was on when i wrote the song.

you have to remove yourself from being in the band.

when you sit down to mix it you have to just approach it like it was another project that you had nothing to do with.

it's really hard to do..........

i typically don't track the secret club and i just want to be a band member and focusing on performing.  i do mix everything.

i have a clear vision of where i want the songs to go, and i attempt to take them there while keeping a close eye on clarity.  it's far to easy to get distracted listen to your own parts and what you screwed up or played well.  you have to make sure every one is present and accounted for and the song is being displayed properly (whatever that is)

that's a pretty abstract reply, but it's the best i can do.
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Fibes

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2006, 01:31:05 PM »

I don't want to do it ever again.

Chances are I will.


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pg666

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2006, 01:43:30 PM »

Quote:

What are some of the things you learned about working on your own projects that allow you to be successful?


learning how to punch-in with your toes.

seriously.
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NelsonL

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2006, 01:50:07 PM »

Tracking alone is the worst part for me, I can overdub fine, but getting the basics is always a struggle.

That and the temptation to start recording before the song is completely written.

The best advice I could give based on my own experience would to bring other people into the process.
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Frob

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2006, 02:00:12 PM »

hte hardest part ive found is getting the rest of the band to step back as well. every one wants the finished product the next day and that sipmly should not be done.

chris haines

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2006, 02:14:44 PM »

I think it's extremely difficult to keep perspective on the tunes if you've written, played on, tracked & produced them yourself...so, I always try to hire a mixer, especially if I'm the singer.  For some reason, if i'm not the singer, i'm way more comfortable mixing it...

Even if you don't have the dough, and the first few hundred records have to go towards paying back the person you hired to mix, I find that it's a worthwhile expense.

Some people can wear all the hats...Ken Andrews in particular...i love all his work and it keeps getting better...

It would be nice to have Chris Walla chime in, particularly 'cause his band is really hitting its stride both artistically and commercially and he kind of checked out early on the thread documenting the making of the new record, which turned out really well...
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Fabricoh35

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2006, 03:25:06 PM »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 18 January 2006 11:45

  it's far to easy to get distracted listen to your own parts and what you screwed up or played well.  you have to make sure every one is present and accounted for and the song is being displayed properly (whatever that is)




That is a very difficult part of the process.  I question whether I really have accounted for everything properly or if I just hear the parts because I know they are there.  I guess though that that would be the same for any mix job because you tend to get real familiar with the material even if it is not your own.

One other thing that I'm working on right now is performance.  When you play multiple parts it can get tempting to skimp on the practicing of those parts.  If you are just one cog in the wheel of a band you practice those songs in preproduction until you can play the part in your sleep.  Well your supposed to anyway.  But all alone you may not tend to practice before you try and put it on tape.  
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TheViking

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2006, 04:24:13 PM »

Sometimes as a producer it's easy to lose perspective - even if it isn't your own band.   I have a hard time with it as I always get so caught up in the sounds, song and the vibe of the tracking sessions.   Sometimes it's nice to just let go of the tracks and send them to a mixer.   Every situation is different though.
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dikledoux

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2006, 08:17:53 PM »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 18 January 2006 11:45

i typically don't track the secret club and i just want to be a band member and focusing on performing.  i do mix everything.


I'd LOVE to not be the tracking guy on anything I have to perform on ever again.  I'd kill if I could just play my instrument with as much focus as my brain and heart could muster... period.

Also... I'd love to do more mixes that I wasn't involved in the tracking.  I say that but I'll probably whine like a little girl about how I coulda tracked it better <g>.

With respect to the OP, I think you just have to try to learn what lessons you can about all the jobs/roles that you're involved in and try to muster enough energy, enthusiasm and commitment about the project and whatever role(s) you've gotten yourself into.  Oh yeah - - try to be completely objective and don't take anything personal - - HA!

dik

[edit - you have to keep your fingers on the home keys or else you inadvertantly type in some kinda code]
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John Ivan

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2006, 04:38:54 PM »

I'm doing some tunes,totally by myself right now. I decided to do pre-production in cubase. I'm writing at the piano for this, {rare for me} and the pre-time is helping me keep my distance from a playing stand point. I'm not printing keepers so I seem more relaxed and free to be creative.

The post about taking time away from the stuff is good. I came back to a tune the other day after one month and thought, " wow, is that MY idea?"

It just takes way more time but when I finally sit down to drum it for real I'll be playing parts that are already "done" and well thought out. The only thing I'm leaving open is solo's and Vocal phrasing.

This wont work for everyone but it works for me. This is what I think sequencers are for. All the instruments will be real in the end.

Just take your time and try to be a listener. Be honest with yourself. It's hard.

Ivan.....................................................
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pg666

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2006, 07:01:32 PM »

Quote:

One other thing that I'm working on right now is performance. When you play multiple parts it can get tempting to skimp on the practicing of those parts. If you are just one cog in the wheel of a band you practice those songs in preproduction until you can play the part in your sleep.


what i'm gonna say probably won't sound too encouraging, but i personally feel like if you're gonna go the 'play most of the instruments yourself' route you should approach each instrument like it IS your main gig.

i just know i've heard too many 'guitar player put down an accoustic guitar part and filled in the rest' songs to know how transparent it usually sounds. rhythm and dynamic-wise it just never quite locks together like a rehearsed band would.

basically, if you honestly think/know it'd sound better to get other people involved, go that route. it's more fun that way anyhow.
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Fabricoh35

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2006, 12:27:06 AM »

[quote title=pg666 wrote on Thu, 19 January 2006 19:01]
Quote:



basically, if you honestly think/know it'd sound better to get other people involved, go that route. it's more fun that way anyhow.


Not if you played with the guys I have to choose from.  I've got a great chops...no musicality (feel), pretty good feel...no talent (chops), and another 3 or 4 that are just irresponsible and unreliable.

I try not to ask a lot but I can't seem to get even a little and this takes all the fun out of it for me.  They usually tell me that they had a great time, but I come away completely drained.
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chris haines

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2006, 12:20:14 PM »

pg666 wrote on Fri, 20 January 2006 01:01


i just know i've heard too many 'guitar player put down an accoustic guitar part and filled in the rest' songs to know how transparent it usually sounds. rhythm and dynamic-wise it just never quite locks together like a rehearsed band would.

basically, if you honestly think/know it'd sound better to get other people involved, go that route. it's more fun that way anyhow.


Yes, but some great records have been made like this out of necessity (ie...can't find the right drummer/other musicians, need to record & put it out) and might have never seen the light of day if the creative people/person writing the songs hadn't just plowed ahead...

Magnified by Failure comes to mind...the bass player ended up programming the kik and playing the rest of the drums live...

I'd recommend looking around for the right people, but not waiting for them.

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pg666

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2006, 01:33:13 PM »

Quote:

Yes, but some great records have been made like this out of necessity (ie...can't find the right drummer/other musicians, need to record & put it out) and might have never seen the light of day if the creative people/person writing the songs hadn't just plowed ahead...


oh i agree, although honestly, you could probably count the great ones on one hand. i hate to be mean, but go listen to the 'post your mp3s' section of the tapeop board and that's what 'multi-instrumentalist' projects typically sound like..

it is fun to do as a creative outlet, but to do it convincingly(imo) takes far more work than just finding better musicians to play with..
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scott volthause

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2006, 04:07:28 PM »

I'm feeling this pain right now, as the band I'm in is recording it's EP.

I play guitar in the band, but I'm also playing the role of tracking engineer, producer (whatever it is that it really implies?) and mix engineer.

The songs are fairly well rehearsed as they've been played out 100's of times by now, but there are still things that I'm finding NOW, that I should have found earlier... like slight inconsistancies with tempo, or a clammed kick drum hit. I can't believe I didn't catch them while tracking, but of course it stands to reason because while tracking I was thinking about how it *sounded* sonically, and not as focused on the performance.

So now I stress about *when* am I going to fix it? Should I re-track? Should I fix it in the DAW? Before or after bass overdubs? Definitely before vocal overdubs, but I'm in the middle of recording guitars...

Anyhow, yeah.

I'm learnig how to manage these things though, and figuring out a better *methodology* to doing it, and I think that's the crucial part of tracking, mixing or producing.

Ramble on.
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John Ivan

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2006, 04:51:23 PM »

pg666 wrote on Fri, 20 January 2006 13:33

Quote:

Yes, but some great records have been made like this out of necessity (ie...can't find the right drummer/other musicians, need to record & put it out) and might have never seen the light of day if the creative people/person writing the songs hadn't just plowed ahead...


oh i agree, although honestly, you could probably count the great ones on one hand. i hate to be mean, but go listen to the 'post your mp3s' section of the tapeop board and that's what 'multi-instrumentalist' projects typically sound like..

it is fun to do as a creative outlet, but to do it convincingly(imo) takes far more work than just finding better musicians to play with..



I agree with this. In my case, I've been waiting to do this for a long time and spent stupid sick hours on the instruments. I feel I can play the stuff as well as anyone I might call. I'm really doing it as a way to calm down. Life has been insane over the last few years and it's my little break from the real wold.

You are right though, if I didn't feel I could play the stuff as well as my first call drummer for instance, I wouldn't proly do it.

Ivan...................
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Beezoboy

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2006, 10:04:39 AM »

I think Pingu had some great advice. Me and a freind of mine took some time this summer and tracked our bands. The tracking was over 3 or 4 months mostly doing long weekends. It was fun and in a vacant old house where we never had to tear down or change the setup. Just turn on the gear and start tracking.

We got some good tracks laid down and then I moved to Maryland in October. Its now January and I am getting ready to start mixing. I feel refreshed and like I can start fresh on the tracks and really be objective and pay attention to what the mix needs.

I had a hand in song writing, played drums, tracked, produced and pretty much everything else. Someone else did hit record for me though while I was playing drums.

I think this was a great way to do it and it has worked well for us so far. Some people probably do better and can feel more focused doing it all in 14 days, but I am enjoying taking my time.

Beez
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smorgdonkey

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2006, 12:28:20 AM »

How about this
step #1 write it when you are most inspired.
step #2 critique it like it was someone else's and fix what doesn't 'cut it'
step #3 record it the best that you can.
step #4 mix it like it was someone else's and your task is to make it sound the best that it can sound.

I try to do things that way and at least I think it works for me.  
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John Ivan

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2006, 03:49:32 AM »

smorgdonkey wrote on Sun, 22 January 2006 00:28

How about this
step #1 write it when you are most inspired.
step #2 critique it like it was someone else's and fix what doesn't 'cut it'
step #3 record it the best that you can.
step #4 mix it like it was someone else's and your task is to make it sound the best that it can sound.

I try to do things that way and at least I think it works for me.  



Right on bro,, I dig your no nonsense approach .;-}

The thing is though,, you just named the four hardest things {IMHO} to do as a writer/player/engineer/producer person. The thing that tends to get us is the realization that we are listening to OUR OWN playing and writing. We are head strong about the ideas and have fragile ego's about our chops and aren't quite sure we have the mixing chops to get it done and so on.

One thing that really helped me, some years back is a wonderful friend who happens to also be an encyclopedic guitarist. He basically told me, " Look, you can play. Be honest about that. Understand who you are. Don't down play your reality as a player/mixer. Also, don't bullshit yourself into believing you can play stuff you can't. If you get stuck, go learn your way out of it or realize you wont ever play this thing or that thing and move on.. Being honest about who we are is key to making it work."

This has always been my biggest enemy. FEAR!!. Not believing in myself in some cases and thinking I'm " some hot shot" in others. I finally feel like I have an understanding of who I've become as a music person and this has helped me except my weaknesses AND my strong points. I can now relax and learn much more from others who have found some comfort in "their musical reality"..

Sorry I rambled again.. just my experience/journey into this thing.. It;s been a great ride and it's more fun everyday.. Lucky us!! we get to play music!!

Ivan........................................................ .....
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maxim

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2006, 09:19:01 AM »

time is your friend and a luxury that most studio based projects don't have

however it can also be a problem

walking away allows you to get a fresh outlook, which tends to disappear if you're stuck inside a project for too long

as for fixing mistakes, a lot of things can be fixed in the daw, inc early or late starts, clammed kiks etc

the only thing you can't fix is the 'feel'

and word of advice, fix each track as you go, before you overdub the others, otherwise you'll be in big big trouble

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malice

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2006, 06:37:26 AM »

maxim wrote on Sun, 22 January 2006 15:19

time is your friend and a luxury that most studio based projects don't have





I strongly disagree with that statement.

Being ready when recording is what it is all about. A great recording occures when you don't have to do 30 takes to lay your song. You have to stay fresh on the music you play. Time is not often a luxury. The only luxury time offers is when you can record a song when you feel like recording it.

I have more stories about never ending sessions turning into a fiasco than the opposite. A good band, with good musician, with their shit prepared and rehursed for no more than a week can track an album in no time.

Time is a vibe killer, imho

malice

maxim

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2006, 09:06:01 AM »

mr moulin wrote:

"I strongly disagree with that statement.

Being ready when recording is what it is all about. A great recording occures when you don't have to do 30 takes to lay your song."

noone said anything about 30 takes

that sure is a vibe killer

no more than 3 takes is my rule of thumb

beuaty of having time on your hands is that if it doesn't work in 3 takes, you can walk away and regroup

there's more to making a record than recording

there's editing, overdubbing, mixing etc

i agree that some of these have to be done quickly, but having a luxury of being able to get a fresh outlook is great

this reminds of what mike stavrou told me cat stevens had told him:

"the difference between a good record and a great one is the amount of time spent in the studio"

the mythology of the 'quick hit' is, imo, the greatest factor responsible for the amount of mediocrity that hits our cerebra

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malice

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2006, 09:51:20 AM »

maxim wrote on Tue, 24 January 2006 15:06

"the difference between a good record and a great one is the amount of time spent in the studio"

the mythology of the 'quick hit' is, imo, the greatest factor responsible for the amount of mediocrity that hits our cerebra




Does this statement works for the fifties or sixties recordings as well ?

Let's be serious for a minute, the hall of fame of music production is filled with songs recorded and mixed in less than one day.

I would agree, on a certain extend, that you can achieve wonders with time on a technical level and that the sound might gain from the amount of days you spent on a drum sound.

But the sound comes long after songwriting and performance in my book.

Let's be serious, I would qualify most of Miles Davis recordings "mediocre".

Even soundwise.

malice

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2006, 11:18:31 AM »



I can go both ways on this.

I agree with Malice but I also agree with Maxim.

From an Music Industry stand point doing it yourself is not efficient and you will end up losing money without an efficient methodology of creating the end product.

From a Artistic expression stand point where the music is not being done for the love of money, the process of writing tracking, mixing and performing is part of the exerience.

I love to see band who are prepared with rehearsed material come in and nail everything in one take and walk away with a good product that is marketable. Well trained musician who have thier skills honed...think wrecking crew...

But as an artist I like to fiddle about and try different things that probably wouldn't belong on mainstream radio.

Doing it all yourelf can be a vibe killer indeed. Last Saturday I was enjoying playing my guitar to a song I was working on when a drum part popped into my head. The vibe was good, lava lamps, candles and incense. I had some space on the tape that was loaded, bused an flipped what was needed, hit record, ran out of the control room, into the live room where the drums were, caught my foot on an extenstion cord leading to my disco-ball hanging in the live room and preceded to rip it from its mount causing it to shatter on the floor. Instant death of major vibe. I lost the will at that moment to record the drum part...

All that got recorded was a shattering noise...some wimpering...
and the sound of garbage going into a can.

I'll be ok...


Peace,
Dennis

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j.hall

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2006, 11:29:45 AM »

just to add another layer

i'm friends with a band who one member is an engineer.  he's actually pretty good.  they cut their first record themselves and had it mixed by a mixer.  it turned out really good.

they are preparing for another record now and have sworn to never track themselves again.

the secret club is half way into our second record's song writing.  we have three engineers in the band (out of 4 members).  we have all agreed to pay some one else to track our next record.

i'll be stupid enough to mix it.....but i'm not tracking it.
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John Ivan

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2006, 11:41:52 AM »

malice wrote on Tue, 24 January 2006 06:37

maxim wrote on Sun, 22 January 2006 15:19

time is your friend and a luxury that most studio based projects don't have





I strongly disagree with that statement.

Being ready when recording is what it is all about. A great recording occures when you don't have to do 30 takes to lay your song. You have to stay fresh on the music you play. Time is not often a luxury. The only luxury time offers is when you can record a song when you feel like recording it.

I have more stories about never ending sessions turning into a fiasco than the opposite. A good band, with good musician, with their shit prepared and rehursed for no more than a week can track an album in no time.

Time is a vibe killer, imho

malice




Yeah, in a standard studio environment this is right on. When I do sessions for other people as a player, if we go past 4 or 5 takes,  the vibe starts to come apart. OTOH, when I'm working at home alone?? Well, just the fact that I'm working on original tunes with my own space and time is 200 percent vibe.. I can do way more takes using different ideas. Not more takes because I'm fucking it up but to look at different ideas.

For me, working alone is never a vibe killer.
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malice

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2006, 12:05:19 PM »

j.hall wrote on Tue, 24 January 2006 17:29

just to add another layer

i'm friends with a band who one member is an engineer.  he's actually pretty good.  they cut their first record themselves and had it mixed by a mixer.  it turned out really good.

they are preparing for another record now and have sworn to never track themselves again.


The story of my band. We hired a guy to record the second one.

Quote:


the secret club is half way into our second record's song writing.  we have three engineers in the band (out of 4 members).  we have all agreed to pay some one else to track our next record.


Well, even stupider here: we're four record producers... out of five members.
You do realise the discussions we can have. Very Happy

Quote:



i'll be stupid enough to mix it.....but i'm not tracking it.


Well, I'll be mixing it too ...

I'm not sure it's going to be all that fun Laughing

malice

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2006, 12:09:45 PM »

ivan40 wrote on Tue, 24 January 2006 17:41

 Well, just the fact that I'm working on original tunes with my own space and time is 200 percent vibe..


It's all about vibe brotha, ya spot on Wink

Quote:


I can do way more takes using different ideas. Not more takes because I'm fucking it up but to look at different ideas.




You said it: you're using different ideas

What I find lame is 30 takes of the SAME idea, for the only sake of perfection.

THAT's the vibe killer among vibe killers. Very Happy

(good thread Smile )

malice

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2006, 01:50:11 PM »

OK so heres a twist Smile

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5407156228665329611& amp;q=sonic

Peace,
Dennis
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maxim

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2006, 05:58:58 PM »

dennis wrote:

"I agree with Malice but I also agree with Maxim."

please note, i never said, you can't make a great record in one day

but you can make one in 365 also

as the 'art of war' says, turn your weaknesses into your strengths

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Invisible Member

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2006, 12:22:08 PM »

maxim wrote on Tue, 24 January 2006 14:58

dennis wrote:

"I agree with Malice but I also agree with Maxim."

please note, i never said, you can't make a great record in one day

but you can make one in 365 also

as the 'art of war' says, turn your weaknesses into your strengths




I can't see where I said that you said....but my interpretation of the conversation was several points were being made that seemed contradictory but were not because of the context. Maybe my personal perspective with a lefty spin clouded my point instead of clarifying it. My apologies if there was an accidental implication.

I'll go back to my corner now.

Peace,
Dennis
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scott volthause

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2006, 01:07:00 PM »

So what do I do when I can play the bass parts better than the bass player can?

This is what I'm up against right now.

The bass player said it wouldn't hurt his feelings if I played bass on the EP, as he said he wouldn't want to compromise the end product, but I would feel bad about doing that.

Any adivse?
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j.hall

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2006, 01:19:06 PM »

if the bass playing isn't right, you need to play it.  

especially if he isn't going to be weird about it.
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Fibes

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2006, 02:16:38 PM »

I'm as inclusive as i can be but in the end it's all about the big picture.

Try the bass part and put it up for blind A/B listening. Sometimes this gets the other dudes juices flowing well enough to get on board.

The path sometimes needs examples not signs...
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pg666

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2006, 03:30:08 PM »

i've only been in one situation where we decided to keep a mediocre element that could have easily been replaced (which also happened to be bass). this guy was a founding member of the band and he'd put a lot of time and money into it so they wanted to include him on the recording before he moved away.

..and then the other guys heard the bass solo'd. they opted for mixing the bass "..and justice for all" style instead of re-recording it, but still. it's not fair for the other people involved to have to live with someone else's lack of practice/bad timing/etc when it can easily be done better.
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j.hall

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2006, 03:58:59 PM »

the secret club has two drummers, 3 guitar players, 2 bass players, and 4 singers.  when we write/record it's a check your ego at the door situation.

it's not uncommon for the bass player to grab my guitar and just show me what he's thinking.  i've grabbed the sticks ad played drums.  we've all changed lyrics and vocals on jeff.  there is a difference in doing something maliciously and doing it to simply improve the recording/song.

flushing out parts and overdubs needs to happen quickly before ideas are lost.  
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Frob

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2006, 04:42:05 PM »

but if this is the situation then make sure that it does in fact sound better. things like switching playing styles (with bass) for example going from some one who plays with his fingers to some one who uses a pick makes the whole thing sound mutch difrant. its up to you and the band which one sounds better.

scott volthause

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2006, 04:56:55 PM »

I do intend to do what's best for the final product, in the end. But that doesn't mean I won't give the guy a shot. The problems are:

1 ) I've played both guitar and bass for a long time, and the drummer in this current band is one who I have shared a lot of time with in many other bands. We click and read each others mind whether I'm playing  guitar or bass. So I would say I have a slightly unfair advantage to locking in with this drummer.

2 ) Stylistically, we're on opposite ends of the playing spectrum. I'm more of a slinky rock / funk / dub style, and he's more hi-fi stacatto. He seems to overplay in areas that need to be laid back, and then lets notes ring out through sections that are build-ups. I really don't understand that one.

3 ) I wrote these songs. I knew the moment the guitar riff came out of my fingers what it was that I wanted the bass line to sound like. Now I'll take a serious 'Shame on me' for not being able to communicate exactly what it is that I want to hear him play, but the times that I have tried to get him to play what's in my head (and what I would actually play in a particular section) it comes out of his hands... well... different.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to turn this thread into a thing about me.

I think Fibes may have nailed it for me though. I'll do my own versions of the bass lines, and let the band as a whole decide which version they prefer of each song. I may actually be shocked and "De-Egoized" in the end... And maybe that's not such a bad thing.
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maxim

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2006, 06:40:39 PM »

dennis wrote:

"I can't see where I said that you said...."


you didn't

it wasn't directed at you

i was agreeing with you

sorry for the misunderstanding

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Dave Martin

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2006, 07:32:23 PM »

scott volthause wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 12:07

So what do I do when I can play the bass parts better than the bass player can?


You should also make sure that a 'better' bass part fits the sound of the band better than the one the bass player plays...

I've been playing bass in studios for more than 30 years; I'm fairly opinionated, and therefore think that I'm good at it.  Cool And over the years, there have been numerous times when I 'knew' that I could play a part cleaner, more accurately, with a better tone, or whatever - than the bass player on the session. And (fortunately, I've learned to shut the hell up) once the song was together, realized that the bass part that I didn't like earlier was where the magic in the song lives...

And it's not just session with young bands and inexperienced musicians - I've had the same thought listening to Bob Babbitt play on a session out here. And only later did I realize that Bob's part was perfect all along...

The point? That you perhaps shouldn't make the call that a part needs to be replaced until it becomes necessary to complete the song.
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maxim

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2006, 10:33:01 PM »

psychologically speaking, it should be the absolute last resort measure, unless you specifically come in as a producer-musician, and it's understood from the beginning that you might do that

even then, egos will get hurt

i guess that's why i don't like being in a 'band'

i prefer to 'play' with other musicians

that way, i'm sure that i won't need to replace anything

and everyone understands that as the artist-producer, i have final say

egos still get hurt... oh well

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j.hall

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2006, 01:05:15 AM »

getting things right as a songwriter is so far from the last resort.......

seriously, if you are the writer, you need to put kid gloves on and sit down and have a chat.......NEVER hurt some one's feelings just because you want to play his parts

if the people in the band are not grown up enough to sit down and talk this through then no one can help you.

start the conversation, see where that leads.  be honest, but don't be hurtful.
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malice

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2006, 04:23:42 AM »

FWIW,

We are all more or less able to play another instrument. Not everyone can play enough of another ax to be worthy of recording it, but sometimes it's incredible how it can open your and your band mate's mind to change instruments.

We do that all the time when we record or rehearse.

I'm a bass player. I can play a bit of drum, and some keys and gtr.
The sax player is a fair bass player (plus he has this killa musicmaster bass too short for me to play on), he's a killer mandoline player as well
The guitarist  is a good bass player but he's not as good mandolin as the sax (hehe)
the drummer can sing (LOL)
our singer is the best arranger of us all (plus she's my wife)

One day we exchanged instruments and realise that gave us something different but interesting. We composed a song just jamming like this.

Thanx to that, playing someone else part was NEVER a problem. We just passed the ego thing and we know that it is fairly possible your pal has a better groove for some strange reason. Never a problem. Only the result counts.

Learning to leave your ego at the door is often the key to interesting music.

as I said, FWIW Smile

malice

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2006, 10:55:17 AM »

Miles and i just had a weird experience with a bass player.

He was a complete jackoff. Dumber than a box of rocks, hell he even had to call the studio for directions on his second night of tracking. He said rude things without knowing it, was unresponsive, crass, a total blowhard and the band treated him like a crash test dummy.

All night i kept thinking how his bass parts were so freaking "wrong" that I had no idea what i was gonna do.

Then he left.

All of a sudden his bass parts were grooving like crazy (well pretty groovy) and I awoke to something cool that I almost crushed because of the messenger.

It amazed me how both Miles and i felt the same thing, the bassists persona influenced our experience of his music.

Very weird.
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Fibes
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John Ivan

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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2006, 11:23:30 AM »

Fibes wrote on Thu, 26 January 2006 10:55

Miles and i just had a weird experience with a bass player.

He was a complete jackoff. Dumber than a box of rocks, hell he even had to call the studio for directions on his second night of tracking. He said rude things without knowing it, was unresponsive, crass, a total blowhard and the band treated him like a crash test dummy.

All night i kept thinking how his bass parts were so freaking "wrong" that I had no idea what i was gonna do.

Then he left.

All of a sudden his bass parts were grooving like crazy (well pretty groovy) and I awoke to something cool that I almost crushed because of the messenger.

It amazed me how both Miles and i felt the same thing, the bassists persona influenced our experience of his music.

Very weird.


GREAT POST!!

Ivan....................................
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Re: write, play, track, mix...yourself
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2006, 03:07:19 PM »

maxim wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 15:40

dennis wrote:

"I can't see where I said that you said...."


you didn't

it wasn't directed at you

i was agreeing with you

sorry for the misunderstanding


I was just double checking Smile Im lefthanded, deaf in one ear and blind in the other.



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