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Author Topic: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?  (Read 22507 times)

jason goz

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Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2006, 05:53:29 am »

If you are using a neumann rack it should come with the standard acceleration limiter.For vinyl work you will need more than one deeesor espesially if you are cutting dance music, any way i have got a couple of spare Ortofon stl 732 HF limiters and would be happy to sell one.Pm me for details.
Jason

Gold

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Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2006, 10:12:20 am »

 A thing to keep in mind with the stl 732 is that it needs an RIAA pre-emphasis signal at it's control input. Not a problem if you pick off a signal from the cutting rack. If you want to use it as a standalone unit you'll need to make that circuit.
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Gideon

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Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2006, 03:14:18 pm »

At AES, someone from SPL mentioned to me that they are working on a 120V mastering version of their de-esser; should be very interesting.
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Gideon Egger
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JGreenslade

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Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2006, 04:29:22 pm »

Erik wrote
Quote:

I have the BSB74 and it needs to be set very low, it can be rather brutish to the sound


You're not wrong there! I had to use a Neumann Acceleration Limiter (I believe it was a BSB74, it was for a VMS-70 lathe) on some of my cuts in the early '90s, and in all honesty they're not my favourite masters...

At the time, the studio I was working in had poor acoustics, and far too much HF was put to tape...I can only concur that the Neumann Acceleration Limiter is an absolute beast, and needs to be applied with considerable delicacy from what I've experienced.

On the cuts I had ALs used on, the top-end sounds muddy and veiled.

Even though I now have access to well-treated mixing rooms, I tend to be very conservative with the the top-end because of my earlier experience, and prefer to add a dB or so with the master EQ if needed rather than risk patching in that AL...

Justin
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andybeemusic

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Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2006, 04:57:20 pm »

Thanks for all the hints+tips!
The weiss deesser is for shure one of the top deessing tools arround, but a little too expensive for me... Embarassed
I try to get one ortofon, I think together with multiband dynamics it´s a good way... the riaa input is no problem,
my soldering gun is hot 24hours  Laughing
I haven´t testet the SPL but it uses different techn. (phase shift on trebles) ? if this works on stereo masters....mmmh...
and, thanks for the digitalfishbones-tip, i´ve forgotten this nice plugs.... Razz
Andreas
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2006, 08:12:15 pm »

We had high hopes for the Neumann but ended up using it in the mix room.

TotalSonic

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Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2006, 09:37:22 pm »

I think the thing with the Neumann AL units is they worked well as long as the threshold was kept fairly high and the amount of limiting was kept to a minimum.  More of a thing for protection of the cutter head than something that can be expected to remove all problematic freqs, because if you pushed them they can definitely eat up the high hats and veil the track unpleasantly as mentioned by other posters in this thread.  

For most tracks I found the best results when I used just a touch of the Neumann AL  after the de-esser which allowed me to not have the push the de-esser as hard.  Sometimes also finding the right balancing act of the settings for the LPF and possibly a cut with a high shelf or bell would make it so I didn't have to work the de-esser as hard also - where things were best varied a bit from track to track.

The Maselec piece definitely sounds like the jammy though - street price was a little under $3g last time I checked with Studio Consultants.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

ak

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Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2006, 06:10:19 pm »

Hi,

i am using the AL of the Neumann SAL only very gently or it is switched off when the master is perfect.

usually i master as long as i dont need it.

As plugins i can say the RenDesser from waves does a good job
in bandpass mode. Sometimes if you have several De-Ess frequencies you can open several of them set to different frequecies.

i tried the Weiss DS-1mk2 and must say the difference between a
Waves plugin in De-esser mode is not that drastic. Especially
when you look at the price. But in general i don´t use waves plugins except of the de-esser.

I would really like to see a plugin which could be set at several very narrow, de-ess frequencies to cover different voice sybilat frequencies. Especially when there are two singers in an recording of very loud S F T´s at different freq.

as an protection i would not use a plugin or external hardware, just have your AL on
try to optimise with external equipment and if u use the AL, then
gently. it is reacting mostly to fast impulses but not to sounds with a longer decay, like a noise.

Th concept of the SPL de-esser is not bad, maybe les noticable
like a sidchained compressor. it is worth a try.

greetings

Andreas

Schnittstelle
Mastering & Vinylschnitt
Frankfurt-Germany




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Ronny

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Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2006, 08:22:03 pm »




I'd like to see a digital graphic eq with 1/12th octave increments, + or - 30dB boost/cut and no overlapping of the bandwidth (no Q curves) at sliders. That way you could notch several very narrow freq's at the same time with little effect on the keeper material. If you need the Q, you would still get a curve from where the slider levels are placed in relation to each other, using multiple bands for wider Q factors. Would be great for de-essing and general noise and hiss reduction. Software manu's that I've seen are just making 1, 1/2 and 1/3rd octave virtual graphics and they are fine for simulating FOH graphic eq's, but have little potential for doing surgical eq fixes in post production.
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bobkatz

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Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2006, 09:08:23 am »

ak wrote on Thu, 12 January 2006 18:10




i tried the Weiss DS-1mk2 and must say the difference between a
Waves plugin in De-esser mode is not that drastic.




I have to disagree. There's something about the linear phase filtering and the dual time constants in the Weiss that make it stand out from the crowd. The Weiss has more positive triggers on S's and fewer negative triggers on non-S's than any of its digital competitors that I have tried.

To repeat myself from this thread, a good de-esser should be:

a) transparent and invisible. Meaning that it produces very few artifacts, even when it is working heavily.

b) selective. Meaning that it finds s's and tames them without hurting cymbals, and other high frequency signals. The Weiss is so good at this that it doesn't even have M/S mode, but it beats the TC Electronic's de-esser.

By the way, I routinely use the Weiss in bandpass mode rather than HF reject mode. I don't really know if it makes much of a difference, but my head feels better about it.

I'm betting that anyone doing a shootout blind or not will agree with me that nothing comes close to the Weiss. I do not get any endorsements from Weiss for this statement and these are my own personal opinions. It hurts me to say that I think that something is the "best' and that another brand is not as good if I generally like the products from the other brand. But in this case, I believe the Weiss is such a clear winner as to be worth the praise. I'd love to see it have an M/S mode, then it would be such a killer! But Daniel tells me the ergonomics would be a pain to do.

BK
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ak

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Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2006, 07:32:39 pm »

Hi Bob,

i am sure you are right. The Weiss is great. I spent twice some weeks with the EQ1Mk2 and a bit less time with the DS1Mk2.
That is definately not enough to get everything out of them.
In an digital workstation environment the 128 memory preset
storage was too oldfashioned to me to accept this today, and i
am not a bookkeeper and no daily midi dumper.
I was comparing the EQ1mk2 with the Algorithmics in parallel but thats another thing and since then i use both Red & Orange PEQ
and are very lucky with it Wink

Sometimes i have recordings where several De-Ess frequencies need to be attenuated. For example 5k 8k & 12k. In Bandpass (narrow) mode i can control one frequency thats it, so i would need 3 DS1Mk2 !

In wideband the results are ok but i prefer narrow band mode. So hihats are affected as well in wide mode (or how is it called).
The compressor is another story, its great, but i own a lot of great analog compressors.
But that was not what i was looking for that time. Just was interested in the de-esser to use it as a working horse
in my daily disk mastering job.
If i would purchased it 5 years ago i would probably still be happy and using it still sometimes.
I think i am waiting for something fresh which is easy to embed
in a workstation alike environment. not via AES/EBU. But there is something on the way like this from Weiss so lets see hope  and wait. Or maybe some other company finally get a great de-esser plugin written.

greetings

Andreas

Schnittstelle
Mastering & Vinylschnitt
Frankfurt Germany




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bobkatz

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Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2006, 09:13:51 am »

ak wrote on Fri, 13 January 2006 19:32

Hi Bob,

i am sure you are right. The Weiss is great. I spent twice some weeks with the EQ1Mk2 and a bit less time with the DS1Mk2.
That is definately not enough to get everything out of them.
In an digital workstation environment the 128 memory preset
storage was too oldfashioned to me to accept this today, and i
am not a bookkeeper and no daily midi dumper.




Hi, AK...
In most cases it's simple enough to save track 1 to memory 1 and so on. But you definitely have to save a Sysex to your sequencer or workstation. On days where I'm doing a lot of short projects or singles I've been known to sysex 3 times in a day.

Quote:



Sometimes i have recordings where several De-Ess frequencies need to be attenuated. For example 5k 8k & 12k. In Bandpass (narrow) mode i can control one frequency thats it, so i would need 3 DS1Mk2 !




Either I'm not as discriminating as you or I haven't encountered this too much. I just make the bandwidth wider if it doesn't handle the essses at the extremes of the band. S's dont' have that discrete a frequency to my ears. They're usually concentrated in some range but at LEAST a kHz wide, 3-4 kHz, 3-5 kHz, 6-7 kHz, 6-9 kHz, 7-9 kHz, and sometimes above 9 K even. But in cases where the s's are all over the place I just widen the bandwidth of the Weiss until it deals with it, or the compromise becomes too bad. Yes, you start affecting high hats and then you "give up" and live with the s's rather than take down the HF instruments.  I personally can't imagine how you can have three different de-essers without engaging in just as much sonic compromise as with a single de-esser with a bandpass of, say, 4 kHz to 9 kHz....

Are there people out there with success at getting a "less compromised" master by using several de-esser, each tuned to different "small" bandwidths?  It seems to me the usual de-ess range is too wide (at least 1 to 2 kHz wide) to make that worth it.

BK
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ak

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Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2006, 06:39:52 pm »


Hi Bob,

i noticed less artifarcts if i opened 2 or 3 Instances of RenDeesser
in Bandpass mode then compared to one wideband de-esser.
For example S´s at 5 and 8 khz, Hihat at 10-12. The Rennaisance De-esser from waves can work quite narrow. But as i said it is
a tool, which i use to solve problems to get rid of excessive
cutting current and tracking distortions. And it is easy to save it
with your project. If i am doing a half analog/digital mastering a
Weiss could do the job too beacuse i have to anyway write down the analog settings.
Better teach the people how to do their recording properly then
fixing it in the mix. There is anyway enough to do.. Wink

greetings

Andreas

Schnittstelle
Mastering & Vinylschnitt
Frankfurt - Germany

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bobkatz

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Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2006, 06:39:10 pm »

ak wrote on Tue, 17 January 2006 18:39


Hi Bob,

i noticed less artifarcts if i opened 2 or 3 Instances of RenDeesser





Very interesting. Thanks for the observation. I'll check it out!

Quote:

Better teach the people how to do their recording properly then
fixing it in the mix. There is anyway enough to do.. Wink




How true, how true. The less you have to do in mastering (usually) the better it sounds.

BK
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The other says-this is new and therefore better."

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andybeemusic

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Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2006, 06:02:38 pm »

Thanks for all the nice information !!!  Very Happy
Finally, I've got an Ortofon STL-732 (thanks Jason)
Anybody stored some Info Manual/Schematics
of this interesting thing ?
If yes, please contact me !!!  Razz
Thanks!

http://www.andybeemusic.de/pics/stl.jpg
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