Topic: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ? (Read 26625 times)

andybeemusic · « **on:** January 08, 2006, 11:51:27 AM »

Hello!
I'm looking for a very good sounding deesser to protect my
cutting head and of course for loud cuts. Rolling Eyes

There are not very much (analog) deessers available nowadays...
Ive seen, that drawmer has one (MX50), anybody heard this one?
There is several "vintage" gear (like the Ortofon STL 732)
but these ones are hard to find.... (BTW, if somebody has a 732 for sale.... Smile

What do the pros here think ?
Thanks for any help!
Andreas
PS: Im using Waves Deesser Plug at the moment....

David Glasser · « **Reply #1 on:** January 08, 2006, 11:56:15 AM »

Maselec MPL-2

Bob Olhsson · « **Reply #2 on:** January 08, 2006, 12:23:00 PM »

I used the Ortofon at Motown and it was great.

You might try setting the top band of the WAVES linear phase multiband to 5.5k with a fast manual attack and release. Be sure to bypass the other bands and always make sure that nothing can possibly overload the input of this particular plug-in.

Oldfart · « **Reply #3 on:** January 08, 2006, 12:52:26 PM »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Sun, 08 January 2006 12:23

You might try setting the top band of the WAVES linear phase multiband to 5.5k with a fast manual attack and release.

although i'll be trying your recommendation Bob, what I have been doing , is using the 4th band and try to tighten up the upper limit, leaving the above the sibilance stuff alone.

Oldfart

bobkatz · « **Reply #4 on:** January 08, 2006, 01:14:07 PM »

andybeemusic wrote on Sun, 08 January 2006 11:51

Hello!
I´m looking for a very good sounding deesser to protect my
cutting head and of course for loud cuts. Rolling Eyes

There are not very much (analog) deessers available nowadays...
Ive seen, that drawmer has one (MX50), anybody heard this one?
There is several "vintage" gear (like the Ortofon STL 732)
but these ones are hard to find.... (BTW, if somebody has a 732 for sale.... Smile

What do the pros here think ?
Thanks for any help!
Andreas
PS: Im using Waves Deesser Plug at the moment....

If it's analog, I hear the Maselec is the bees knees, recommended by my friend Michael Macdonald. But the best digital de-esser is the Weiss DS-1 Mk2. I've compared it with every plugin I can find and also the De-esser in the TC 6000, and the Weiss beats them all.

A good deesser should be:

----effective

----discriminating

----otherwise invisible.

The Weiss is the winner for me on those criteria. It's not perfect, there are audible compromises, but it is the one which excels at the above three criteria.

Bob Olhsson · « **Reply #5 on:** January 08, 2006, 01:31:30 PM »

We aren't really talking about aesthetic de-essing where I agree about leaving the very top alone. For cutter protection, you really want to get it all out of there. Provided it isn't overloaded, I think the bypassed bands of the WAVES linear phase multiband do less harm to the rest of the signal than their de-essers do. In fact it's the only multiband I know of that's bit transparent when it isn't doing anything.

zetterstroem · « **Reply #6 on:** January 08, 2006, 01:37:37 PM »

i've had some good results with the tubetech 3-band comp...

although it sometimes softens up the bottom end too much

TotalSonic · « **Reply #7 on:** January 08, 2006, 01:52:57 PM »

The Neumann BTT74 accelleration limiter that is found as part of a lot of their later cutting racks worked wonders for me in terms of protection for the cutter head. I can imagine it would be very hard to source them right now though.

If your budget is limited you might want to look into the BSS DPR402. Heathmans uses this in their rooms and they come out with some of the hottest dance cuts that still sound great to my ear.

In terms of a plugin solution - the VST freeware Spitfish De-esser from Digital Fishphones - http://www.digitalfishphones.com/main.php?item=2&subItem =5 - works way better to my ear than the Waves one does. In case you have some doubts as to whether freeware can work well -the author of Digital Fishphones stuff was hired by Magix to write code for Samplitude soon after making these plugs.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

EP · « **Reply #8 on:** January 08, 2006, 05:17:18 PM »

TotalSonic wrote on Sun, 08 January 2006 18:52

If your budget is limited you might want to look into the BSS DPR402. Heathmans uses this in their rooms and they come out with some of the hottest dance cuts that still sound great to my ear.
In terms of a plugin solution - the VST freeware Spitfish De-esser from Digital Fishphones

I use this combination-so can vouch for it. Do I want the maselec? Absolutely. Leif's a great guy, give him a call, as he is quite willing to discuss his gear in person. That said, judicious use of the Spitfish and the DPR402, feeding the Neumann acceleration limiter [I have the BSB74 and it needs to be set very low, it can be rather brutish to the sound] does all you need.

Cheers

Samc · « **Reply #9 on:** January 08, 2006, 05:43:32 PM »

Just another option, the ADT audio U781module from their V700series. I have two of these units in a stand alone rack and seriously think that it is head and shoulders above the BSS, Tube Tech, and the Maselec units as a de-esser, all of which I've used and consider good boxes.

Adam Dempsey · « **Reply #10 on:** January 08, 2006, 09:52:59 PM »

The Orban 418A stereo limiter had selectable HF limiting - although really for the purpose of suiting tape EQ. I had used it only with the HF switched out, but it may be an option to try if you see one around.
I'm sure the Maselec would be the go, though. Probably much faster than the Orban too, at a guess..?

TotalSonic · « **Reply #11 on:** January 08, 2006, 11:16:10 PM »

Adam Dempsey wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 02:52

The Orban 418A stereo limiter had selectable HF limiting - although really for the purpose of suiting tape EQ. I had used it only with the HF switched out, but it may be an option to try if you see one around.
I'm sure the Maselec would be the go, though. Probably much faster than the Orban too, at a guess..?

fwiw -
We had an Orban 424 (compressor/limiter/de-esser) at Europadisk and I never used it in any of my mastering there as it just had no overhead and made everything sound flatter and grainy that I tried it on. Perhaps with some modding it could work ok for you - but I think there are much better solutions available now.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Thomas Detert · « **Reply #12 on:** January 09, 2006, 02:58:21 AM »

What about the SPL De-esser ?

http://www.spl-usa.com/DeEsser/in_short.html

I use it on vocals only and it's doin' a very good job!
Never tried it on full material to be honest Smile

cheers,
Thomas

Gold · « **Reply #13 on:** January 09, 2006, 11:22:56 AM »

I recently got the Maselec and no one wants to hear me talk about how good it is anymore. I tried it out six or so years ago and I completely missed the beauty of this box.

Greg Youngman · « **Reply #14 on:** January 09, 2006, 11:49:21 AM »

I'll second the SPL De-esser and the Valley People 415 if you're looking for hardware stuff.

jason goz · « **Reply #15 on:** January 10, 2006, 05:53:29 AM »

If you are using a neumann rack it should come with the standard acceleration limiter.For vinyl work you will need more than one deeesor espesially if you are cutting dance music, any way i have got a couple of spare Ortofon stl 732 HF limiters and would be happy to sell one.Pm me for details.
Jason

Gold · « **Reply #16 on:** January 10, 2006, 10:12:20 AM »

A thing to keep in mind with the stl 732 is that it needs an RIAA pre-emphasis signal at it's control input. Not a problem if you pick off a signal from the cutting rack. If you want to use it as a standalone unit you'll need to make that circuit.

Gideon · « **Reply #17 on:** January 10, 2006, 03:14:18 PM »

At AES, someone from SPL mentioned to me that they are working on a 120V mastering version of their de-esser; should be very interesting.

JGreenslade · « **Reply #18 on:** January 10, 2006, 04:29:22 PM »

Erik wrote

Quote:

I have the BSB74 and it needs to be set very low, it can be rather brutish to the sound

You're not wrong there! I had to use a Neumann Acceleration Limiter (I believe it was a BSB74, it was for a VMS-70 lathe) on some of my cuts in the early '90s, and in all honesty they're not my favourite masters...

At the time, the studio I was working in had poor acoustics, and far too much HF was put to tape...I can only concur that the Neumann Acceleration Limiter is an absolute beast, and needs to be applied with considerable delicacy from what I've experienced.

On the cuts I had ALs used on, the top-end sounds muddy and veiled.

Even though I now have access to well-treated mixing rooms, I tend to be very conservative with the the top-end because of my earlier experience, and prefer to add a dB or so with the master EQ if needed rather than risk patching in that AL...

Justin

andybeemusic · « **Reply #19 on:** January 10, 2006, 04:57:20 PM »

Thanks for all the hints+tips!
The weiss deesser is for shure one of the top deessing tools arround, but a little too expensive for me... Embarassed

I try to get one ortofon, I think together with multiband dynamics it´s a good way... the riaa input is no problem,
my soldering gun is hot 24hours Laughing

I haven´t testet the SPL but it uses different techn. (phase shift on trebles) ? if this works on stereo masters....mmmh...
and, thanks for the digitalfishbones-tip, i´ve forgotten this nice plugs.... Razz

Andreas

Bob Olhsson · « **Reply #20 on:** January 10, 2006, 08:12:15 PM »

We had high hopes for the Neumann but ended up using it in the mix room.

TotalSonic · « **Reply #21 on:** January 10, 2006, 09:37:22 PM »

I think the thing with the Neumann AL units is they worked well as long as the threshold was kept fairly high and the amount of limiting was kept to a minimum. More of a thing for protection of the cutter head than something that can be expected to remove all problematic freqs, because if you pushed them they can definitely eat up the high hats and veil the track unpleasantly as mentioned by other posters in this thread.

For most tracks I found the best results when I used just a touch of the Neumann AL after the de-esser which allowed me to not have the push the de-esser as hard. Sometimes also finding the right balancing act of the settings for the LPF and possibly a cut with a high shelf or bell would make it so I didn't have to work the de-esser as hard also - where things were best varied a bit from track to track.

The Maselec piece definitely sounds like the jammy though - street price was a little under $3g last time I checked with Studio Consultants.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

ak · « **Reply #22 on:** January 12, 2006, 06:10:19 PM »

Hi,

i am using the AL of the Neumann SAL only very gently or it is switched off when the master is perfect.

usually i master as long as i dont need it.

As plugins i can say the RenDesser from waves does a good job
in bandpass mode. Sometimes if you have several De-Ess frequencies you can open several of them set to different frequecies.

i tried the Weiss DS-1mk2 and must say the difference between a
Waves plugin in De-esser mode is not that drastic. Especially
when you look at the price. But in general i don´t use waves plugins except of the de-esser.

I would really like to see a plugin which could be set at several very narrow, de-ess frequencies to cover different voice sybilat frequencies. Especially when there are two singers in an recording of very loud S F T´s at different freq.

as an protection i would not use a plugin or external hardware, just have your AL on
try to optimise with external equipment and if u use the AL, then
gently. it is reacting mostly to fast impulses but not to sounds with a longer decay, like a noise.

Th concept of the SPL de-esser is not bad, maybe les noticable
like a sidchained compressor. it is worth a try.

greetings

Andreas

Schnittstelle
Mastering & Vinylschnitt
Frankfurt-Germany

Ronny · « **Reply #23 on:** January 12, 2006, 08:22:03 PM »

I'd like to see a digital graphic eq with 1/12th octave increments, + or - 30dB boost/cut and no overlapping of the bandwidth (no Q curves) at sliders. That way you could notch several very narrow freq's at the same time with little effect on the keeper material. If you need the Q, you would still get a curve from where the slider levels are placed in relation to each other, using multiple bands for wider Q factors. Would be great for de-essing and general noise and hiss reduction. Software manu's that I've seen are just making 1, 1/2 and 1/3rd octave virtual graphics and they are fine for simulating FOH graphic eq's, but have little potential for doing surgical eq fixes in post production.

bobkatz · « **Reply #24 on:** January 13, 2006, 09:08:23 AM »

ak wrote on Thu, 12 January 2006 18:10

i tried the Weiss DS-1mk2 and must say the difference between a
Waves plugin in De-esser mode is not that drastic.

I have to disagree. There's something about the linear phase filtering and the dual time constants in the Weiss that make it stand out from the crowd. The Weiss has more positive triggers on S's and fewer negative triggers on non-S's than any of its digital competitors that I have tried.

To repeat myself from this thread, a good de-esser should be:

a) transparent and invisible. Meaning that it produces very few artifacts, even when it is working heavily.

b) selective. Meaning that it finds s's and tames them without hurting cymbals, and other high frequency signals. The Weiss is so good at this that it doesn't even have M/S mode, but it beats the TC Electronic's de-esser.

By the way, I routinely use the Weiss in bandpass mode rather than HF reject mode. I don't really know if it makes much of a difference, but my head feels better about it.

I'm betting that anyone doing a shootout blind or not will agree with me that nothing comes close to the Weiss. I do not get any endorsements from Weiss for this statement and these are my own personal opinions. It hurts me to say that I think that something is the "best' and that another brand is not as good if I generally like the products from the other brand. But in this case, I believe the Weiss is such a clear winner as to be worth the praise. I'd love to see it have an M/S mode, then it would be such a killer! But Daniel tells me the ergonomics would be a pain to do.

BK

ak · « **Reply #25 on:** January 13, 2006, 07:32:39 PM »

Hi Bob,

i am sure you are right. The Weiss is great. I spent twice some weeks with the EQ1Mk2 and a bit less time with the DS1Mk2.
That is definately not enough to get everything out of them.
In an digital workstation environment the 128 memory preset
storage was too oldfashioned to me to accept this today, and i
am not a bookkeeper and no daily midi dumper.
I was comparing the EQ1mk2 with the Algorithmics in parallel but thats another thing and since then i use both Red & Orange PEQ
and are very lucky with it Wink

Sometimes i have recordings where several De-Ess frequencies need to be attenuated. For example 5k 8k & 12k. In Bandpass (narrow) mode i can control one frequency thats it, so i would need 3 DS1Mk2 !

In wideband the results are ok but i prefer narrow band mode. So hihats are affected as well in wide mode (or how is it called).
The compressor is another story, its great, but i own a lot of great analog compressors.
But that was not what i was looking for that time. Just was interested in the de-esser to use it as a working horse
in my daily disk mastering job.
If i would purchased it 5 years ago i would probably still be happy and using it still sometimes.
I think i am waiting for something fresh which is easy to embed
in a workstation alike environment. not via AES/EBU. But there is something on the way like this from Weiss so lets see hope and wait. Or maybe some other company finally get a great de-esser plugin written.

greetings

Andreas

Schnittstelle
Mastering & Vinylschnitt
Frankfurt Germany

bobkatz · « **Reply #26 on:** January 14, 2006, 09:13:51 AM »

ak wrote on Fri, 13 January 2006 19:32

Hi Bob,

i am sure you are right. The Weiss is great. I spent twice some weeks with the EQ1Mk2 and a bit less time with the DS1Mk2.
That is definately not enough to get everything out of them.
In an digital workstation environment the 128 memory preset
storage was too oldfashioned to me to accept this today, and i
am not a bookkeeper and no daily midi dumper.

Hi, AK...
In most cases it's simple enough to save track 1 to memory 1 and so on. But you definitely have to save a Sysex to your sequencer or workstation. On days where I'm doing a lot of short projects or singles I've been known to sysex 3 times in a day.

Quote:

Sometimes i have recordings where several De-Ess frequencies need to be attenuated. For example 5k 8k & 12k. In Bandpass (narrow) mode i can control one frequency thats it, so i would need 3 DS1Mk2 !

Either I'm not as discriminating as you or I haven't encountered this too much. I just make the bandwidth wider if it doesn't handle the essses at the extremes of the band. S's dont' have that discrete a frequency to my ears. They're usually concentrated in some range but at LEAST a kHz wide, 3-4 kHz, 3-5 kHz, 6-7 kHz, 6-9 kHz, 7-9 kHz, and sometimes above 9 K even. But in cases where the s's are all over the place I just widen the bandwidth of the Weiss until it deals with it, or the compromise becomes too bad. Yes, you start affecting high hats and then you "give up" and live with the s's rather than take down the HF instruments. I personally can't imagine how you can have three different de-essers without engaging in just as much sonic compromise as with a single de-esser with a bandpass of, say, 4 kHz to 9 kHz....

Are there people out there with success at getting a "less compromised" master by using several de-esser, each tuned to different "small" bandwidths? It seems to me the usual de-ess range is too wide (at least 1 to 2 kHz wide) to make that worth it.

BK

ak · « **Reply #27 on:** January 17, 2006, 06:39:52 PM »

Hi Bob,

i noticed less artifarcts if i opened 2 or 3 Instances of RenDeesser
in Bandpass mode then compared to one wideband de-esser.
For example S´s at 5 and 8 khz, Hihat at 10-12. The Rennaisance De-esser from waves can work quite narrow. But as i said it is
a tool, which i use to solve problems to get rid of excessive
cutting current and tracking distortions. And it is easy to save it
with your project. If i am doing a half analog/digital mastering a
Weiss could do the job too beacuse i have to anyway write down the analog settings.
Better teach the people how to do their recording properly then
fixing it in the mix. There is anyway enough to do.. Wink

greetings

Andreas

Schnittstelle
Mastering & Vinylschnitt
Frankfurt - Germany

bobkatz · « **Reply #28 on:** January 18, 2006, 06:39:10 PM »

ak wrote on Tue, 17 January 2006 18:39

Hi Bob,

i noticed less artifarcts if i opened 2 or 3 Instances of RenDeesser

Very interesting. Thanks for the observation. I'll check it out!

Quote:

Better teach the people how to do their recording properly then
fixing it in the mix. There is anyway enough to do.. Wink

How true, how true. The less you have to do in mastering (usually) the better it sounds.

BK

andybeemusic · « **Reply #29 on:** February 12, 2006, 06:02:38 PM »

Thanks for all the nice information !!! Very Happy

Finally, I've got an Ortofon STL-732 (thanks Jason)
Anybody stored some Info Manual/Schematics
of this interesting thing ?
If yes, please contact me !!! Razz

Thanks!

bigaudioblowhard · « **Reply #30 on:** February 12, 2006, 07:47:44 PM »

I might have something lying around on the 732. I'll look.

bab

jason goz · « **Reply #31 on:** February 17, 2006, 02:11:17 PM »

Andreas,
I put a connection diagram on the top of the box,As long as you have a controlling signal from your cutter amps it will be fine.
Jason
May all your cuts be distortion free Smile

andybeemusic · « **Reply #32 on:** February 18, 2006, 07:03:44 AM »

I just installed the beast Laughing

I installed a special sidechain input, connected to
my cutting amp (current metering)
The current controls the STL's Cutoff Filter...
I did some tests with my dummy head, and everything
worked fine Cool

At short attack times, below 100ms I have a strange
sound, something like a 8bit sound, but I think, this
comes from the dummy head....
Later on, I do some testcuts...

Thanks Jason!
Andybee

2000F · « **Reply #33 on:** January 16, 2007, 03:56:59 PM »

I've got a Ortofon STL 732 I want to use as de'esser/HF limiter while recording/mixing (not mastering). Would I still need, as stated by Gold, "... stl 732 is that it needs an RIAA pre-emphasis signal at it's control input. Not a problem if you pick off a signal from the cutting rack. If you want to use it as a standalone unit you'll need to make that circuit"?

I had my STL 732 fixed at a former Ortofon engineer in Denmark. His company is called ETEC, and his name is Torben R

Gold · « **Reply #34 on:** January 16, 2007, 08:35:04 PM »

2000F wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 15:56

I've got a Ortofon STL 732 I want to use as de'esser/HF limiter while recording/mixing (not mastering). Would I still need, as stated by Gold, "... stl 732 is that it needs an RIAA pre-emphasis signal at it's control input. Not a problem if you pick off a signal from the cutting rack. If you want to use it as a standalone unit you'll need to make that circuit"

I think you would for the sidechain to work correctly. You could try it without first. I'm sure the Ortofon engineer could make a good recomendation.

Quote:

I've also recently got hold of an Ortofon (Fonofilm) STL 632. This is the old valve version. It?s not in the best state unfortunatelt, but I got for around

Logged

Paul Gold
www.saltmastering.com

On the silk road, looking for uranium.

2000F

Newbie
Offline
Posts: 28

Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?

« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2007, 04:34:46 AM »

Hi Gold,

thanks for your reply. I?ll give the STL 732 a try first without the side chain. Do you have the STL 631 papers online/pdf?

Big ups - and thanks!

Frederik

Logged

Gold

Hero Member
Offline
Posts: 1453

Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?

« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2007, 07:53:52 AM »

2000F wrote on Thu, 18 January 2007 04:34

I?ll give the STL 732 a try first without the side chain.

You will need to feed the side chain something or else it won't do anything. You probably know this. I tried mimicing an RIAA curve with a software EQ. It didn't work very well because the EQ couldn't do the right filter slopes. I don't think any of the usual EQ plugins would do it.

Quote:

Do you have the STL 631 papers online/pdf?

No. They aren't mine but I could get them. I would have to either copy or scan them. This would be a pretty big science project. If you want a hobby it's a good project. If you want something that works anytime soon, it's not a good project. If you want to use it as a patchable unit you will need to build in/out amplifiers.

Logged

Paul Gold
www.saltmastering.com

On the silk road, looking for uranium.

2000F

Newbie
Offline
Posts: 28

Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?

« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2007, 08:17:41 AM »

Paul, thank you so much for you kind replys. Don?t worry about the diagrams then at the moment. Smile

Logged

etec / Torben

Newbie
Offline
Posts: 2

Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?

« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2007, 03:40:00 AM »

I've got the schematic for the STL631 valve limiter.
Usually the problem with this unit is that the "Stabistors" are worn out and defective. They may be replaced by standard zenerdiodes.

If You want to use the STL treble limiter as a stand alone unit it can be done by connecting the outputs directly to the control inputs.
Then it will operate directly with a line level signal of 1.22Vrms. You do not need RIAA emph. It operates in flat/liniar mode.

If you get any kind of distortion you have propably overloaded the control input circuits. Turn down the "threshold" button.
On the STL 732 the meter pointers thould not go below 5Khz. Then it will sound audible.

Torben Roenne / Manager and Owner / etec aps.

Logged

Best Regards

Gold

Hero Member
Offline
Posts: 1453

Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?

« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2007, 07:14:18 AM »

etec / Torben wrote on Wed, 14 February 2007 03:40

Quote:

If You want to use the STL treble limiter as a stand alone unit it can be done by connecting the outputs directly to the control inputs.
Then it will operate directly with a line level signal of 1.22Vrms. You do not need RIAA emph. It operates in flat/liniar mode.

FWIW I tried this and didn't get usable results. It worked and didn't distort, but didn't respond in a way that was useful as either a deesser or a HF cutting limiter.

Logged

Paul Gold
www.saltmastering.com

On the silk road, looking for uranium.

tamstudi

Newbie
Offline
Posts: 2
Real Full Name: Tony Batchelor

Re: best analog stereo de-esser for vinyl mastering ?

« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2007, 11:51:02 AM »

In the early 1980's Ortofon ceased manufacture of disc cutting equipment and I took over all the electronic products. Phonotech took over the cutting heads. Later the Phonotech owner died and the heads went to Etec.

I redesigned the STL 732 and it became the STL 852.

Some words of warning!
The STL 631 (and similar) series were valve/inductor circuits and the inherent time delay in such a design is too great if you are using modern heads and solid state cutting amps. For such amps and heads only the 732/852 versions are safe!!!

If using a STL 732 then it is configured to take its control input from the GO 741 amplifier. If you use any other amplifier, the control input has to be VERY carefully chosen. The repair of heads is expensive.

I designed the STL 852 to enable it to be configured for alternative control inputs. Both flat and RIAA.

I am hoping shortly to restart manufacture of the STL (and maybe other units). If anyone would like to be kept informed, then please email me.

Tony

Logged

Tony