prim(e)ar wrote on Fri, 06 January 2006 17:21 |
compasspnt wrote on Sun, 01 January 2006 14:47 |
However, I wobder about the room in which you record these, as well as the mic'ing techniques. Neither of those is mentioned.
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I would bet this is the issue. You've certainly a nice group of amp and guitars. I think a reading of Slippy's guitar recording thread may be in order as well? Maybe you've already read it?
Just a thought...
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OK, before we go much further, let me clarify a few things that seem to be confusing. I know with a long thread like this, it is hard to go back and re-read all the posts word-for-word, but I *tried* to be pretty clear early-on that the amps don't have the sound I am looking for
***IN THE ROOM***. This has nothing to do with recording techniques (yet), but obviously might have a bit to do with the room I guess, but I have recorded 1000's of guitar tracks before without these same issues.
To me, this is one those "you can't polish a turd" type of things.
The room is an iso room that is about 10 X 17 and has some other equipment in it, including other amps and speaker cabs. It is fairly lively, but has some foam in it as well (no bass traps in the iso room yet).
As far as recording technique, I am pretty well-versed in guitars, and have read Slippy's thread (although it was a while ago. Anybody got that link still, might make a good re-read).
Depending on the amp, I use several different recording chains, but for the most part I use combinations of the following mics depending on the situation:
Shure SM57
Beyer M201
Royer R121
Sennheiser MD421 U5
Sen MD441
Sen e906
Neumann U87
Blue Bottle with B6 and B7 capsules
Mic Pres:Great River NV
Telefunken V672 (TAB racked)
API 512C
Focusrite ISA
A/D:Lynx Aurora-16 through Lynx AES-16 card
OK, we can rule out the gear now, and the room, while not ideal, is certainly workable, especially when close-miking. I know there are those that are going to offer some gear advice, but I should be able to get a decent recording with what I have (although if anyone wants to permanently loan me a Chandler channel strip, I *might* take it!!!
).
I have tried every possible mic/pre and mic position combination known to man with the gear that I have, and when using multiple mics, I always use an IBP to fix any phasing issues.
So, as I have said, I am just not happy with the sound of the amps that I have for this particualr project. They are OK for some styles, and I have used them successfully many, many times (high-gain stuff), but I am not happy with them for more classic rock sounds. Like I said earlier, think of the rhythm guitar sound on "Welcome to the Jungle" by Guns and Roses (not one of my favs, but it does have a nice rhythm guitar sound).
By the way, the lead sounds I can get are amazing through these amps, it is the rhythm sound that is bugging the crap out of me.
As has been mentioned in this thread by someone, I can usually make things *fit* into the mix, and can end up with a decent product. The comments about how the guitars sound in isolation vs. in the mix are valid, but there are times when the guitars play by themselves and the band stops, and then we are back to *UGLY*!!! I am looking for something else tone-wise, and I guess it is hard to explain, and probably impossible to answer, especially in a forum where we cannot compare sounds. I guess I just posted out of frustration and desperation!!!
One of the reasons that I am being so particular with this project is that I am recording my son's band, and I want it to be perfect! I am being really picky about the quality of the sound, and I don't want to spend an hour EQ'ing the track after it has gone to tape (read the Slippy thead on this topic!). For the first time in a long time, we are not worried about an hourly rate and nobody is watching the clock. We are committed to making the best album possible in my humble studio with my humble skills.
"Fixing it in the mix" is not what we are looking for here.
I will post a short MP3 later today or this evening to show you what I have been able to achieve so far. It is "OK", but not the sound I am looking for at all. We ended up having to resort to a heavier sound than we wanted just to get some decent sounds to tape that we could live with. The tone that we got is "OK", but is still too heavy for the song's vision. If we reduce the gain, we get that mushy, crappy, muddy, ugly sound that is driving me nuts! I want to *reduce* the gain, not *increase* it, yet these amps seem incapable of producing decent "crunch" sounds without going to a "metal" sound.
I still need *some* distortion, so the Fender sound is not where I am going with this, also as I mentioned earlier, I tried playing through an older Marshall JMP, and it didn't have enough gain either, even when linking the channels.
We tried the clean channels with a couple of pedals, but that didn't do it for anybody either.
One of my buddies suggested using a BBE Sonic Maximizer through the effects loop...GAG!!! That was *hideous*! (I knew that going in, but as mentioned, I was desperate!)
And before anyone mentions it, I always make the gain lower than you think you need it to be when recording. I get so sick of all the thrash metal kids coming into the studio and have the gain cranked to "11" on their Crate or Mesa Recto amps. It takes some persuading, but I can usually convince them that when we layer a couple of tracks with much lower gain settings, it sounds so much better and clearer, yet still "heavy".
There was a thread over at another forum where someone posted a short clip of a Les Paul through an older 50w Plexi that was just amazing! It was a great sound, and pretty close to the one I am looking for for this project. BTW, it was recorded with an SM57 though a Mackie 1604VLZ believe it or not! It still sounded fantastic!
Anyway, sorry for the long post, and the for asking a question that has no answer (or maybe has too obvious of an answer).