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Author Topic: Guitar Amp For the Studio  (Read 13229 times)

musical5

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Re: Guitar Amp For the Studio
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2006, 05:33:20 pm »

Hughes and Kettner, Edition Tube is an amazing recording amp. Try it out, they just released it as the 20th anniversary edition.
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James Duncan

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Re: Guitar Amp For the Studio
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2006, 12:05:45 pm »

prim(e)ar wrote on Fri, 06 January 2006 17:21

compasspnt wrote on Sun, 01 January 2006 14:47


However, I wobder about the room in which you record these, as well as the mic'ing techniques.  Neither of those is mentioned.



I would bet this is the issue. You've certainly a nice group of amp and guitars. I think a reading of Slippy's guitar recording thread may be in order as well? Maybe you've already read it?

Just a thought...



OK, before we go much further, let me clarify a few things that seem to be confusing. I know with a long thread like this, it is hard to go back and re-read all the posts word-for-word, but I *tried* to be pretty clear early-on that the amps don't have the sound I am looking for ***IN THE ROOM***. This has nothing to do with recording techniques (yet), but obviously might have a bit to do with the room I guess, but I have recorded 1000's of guitar tracks before without these same issues.

To me, this is one those "you can't polish a turd" type of things.

The room is an iso room that is about 10 X 17 and has some other equipment in it, including other amps and speaker cabs. It is fairly lively, but has some foam in it as well (no bass traps in the iso room yet).

As far as recording technique, I am pretty well-versed in guitars, and have read Slippy's thread (although it was a while ago. Anybody got that link still, might make a good re-read).

Depending on the amp, I use several different recording chains, but for the most part I use combinations of the following mics depending on the situation:

Shure SM57
Beyer M201
Royer R121
Sennheiser MD421 U5
Sen MD441
Sen e906
Neumann U87
Blue Bottle with B6 and B7 capsules

Mic Pres:

Great River NV
Telefunken V672 (TAB racked)
API 512C
Focusrite ISA

A/D:

Lynx Aurora-16 through Lynx AES-16 card


OK, we can rule out the gear now, and the room, while not ideal, is certainly workable, especially when close-miking. I know there are those that are going to offer some gear advice, but I should be able to get a decent recording with what I have (although if anyone wants to permanently loan me a Chandler channel strip, I *might* take it!!! Wink ).

I have tried every possible mic/pre and mic position combination known to man with the gear that I have, and when using multiple mics, I always use an IBP to fix any phasing issues.

So, as I have said, I am just not happy with the sound of the amps that I have for this particualr project. They are OK for some styles, and I have used them successfully many, many times (high-gain stuff), but I am not happy with them for more classic rock sounds. Like I said earlier, think of the rhythm guitar sound on "Welcome to the Jungle" by Guns and Roses (not one of my favs, but it does have a nice rhythm guitar sound).

By the way, the lead sounds I can get are amazing through these amps, it is the rhythm sound that is bugging the crap out of me.

As has been mentioned in this thread by someone, I can usually make things *fit* into the mix, and can end up with a decent product. The comments about how the guitars sound in isolation vs. in the mix are valid, but there are times when the guitars play by themselves and the band stops, and then we are back to *UGLY*!!!  I am looking for something else tone-wise, and I guess it is hard to explain, and probably impossible to answer, especially in a forum where we cannot compare sounds. I guess I just posted out of frustration and desperation!!!

One of the reasons that I am being so particular with this project is that I am recording my son's band, and I want it to be perfect! I am being really picky about the quality of the sound, and I don't want to spend an hour EQ'ing the track after it has gone to tape (read the Slippy thead on this topic!). For the first time in a long time, we are not worried about an hourly rate and nobody is watching the clock. We are committed to making the best album possible in my humble studio with my humble skills.

"Fixing it in the mix" is not what we are looking for here.

I will post a short MP3 later today or this evening to show you what I have been able to achieve so far. It is "OK", but not the sound I am looking for at all. We ended up having to resort to a heavier sound than we wanted just to get some decent sounds to tape that we could live with. The tone that we got is "OK", but is still too heavy for the song's vision. If we reduce the gain, we get that mushy, crappy, muddy, ugly sound that is driving me nuts! I want to *reduce* the gain, not *increase* it, yet these amps seem incapable of producing decent "crunch" sounds without going to a "metal" sound.

I still need *some* distortion, so the Fender sound is not where I am going with this, also as I mentioned earlier, I tried playing through an older Marshall JMP, and it didn't have enough gain either, even when linking the channels.

We tried the clean channels with a couple of pedals, but that didn't do it for anybody either.

One of my buddies suggested using a BBE Sonic Maximizer through the effects loop...GAG!!! That was *hideous*! (I knew that going in, but as mentioned, I was desperate!)

And before anyone mentions it, I always make the gain lower than you think you need it to be when recording. I get so sick of all the thrash metal kids coming into the studio and have the gain cranked to "11" on their Crate or Mesa Recto amps. It takes some persuading, but I can usually convince them that when we layer a couple of tracks with much lower gain settings, it sounds so much better and clearer, yet still "heavy".

There was a thread over at another forum where someone posted a short clip of a Les Paul through an older 50w Plexi that was just amazing! It was a great sound, and pretty close to the one I am looking for for this project. BTW, it was recorded with an SM57 though a Mackie 1604VLZ believe it or not! It still sounded fantastic!

Anyway, sorry for the long post, and the for asking a question that has no answer (or maybe has too obvious of an answer).
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James Duncan

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tats_dragon

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Re: Guitar Amp For the Studio
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2006, 01:44:08 pm »

I think it confused us all since you mentioned 'Jubilee head' numerous times in your original post.

Jun
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James Duncan

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Re: Guitar Amp For the Studio
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2006, 02:45:50 pm »

tats_dragon wrote on Sat, 07 January 2006 13:44

I think it confused us all since you mentioned 'Jubilee head' numerous times in your original post.


Sorry guys, I know I am going all over the place here.

The part about the Jubilee is that so far, that is the best-sounding amp I have heard that gets closest to the sound I want.

So as I discuss what I need to do to fix the problem, I am using the Jubilee as the reference point for comparison. So as I look for something to replace my existing amps, I am looking for something with that sound.

Of course the obvious answer is to just buy a Jubilee, and that is most-likely what I am going to do.

In the original post, I was just thinking that:

1) there were other choices besides the Jubilee that were not so expensive (I have since found out that they Jubilee is a lot less that I first thought).

and

2) Shouldn't I be able to get better sounds out of the amps I have (are they "bad" in some way...bad tubes, etc.).
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James Duncan

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tats_dragon

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Re: Guitar Amp For the Studio
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2006, 02:51:19 pm »

Have you experimented with different pre and power tubes in your amps?

A great site for asking guitar related questions is:
www.hugeracksinc.com
Very knowledable/helpful people on that forum.

Jun
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floodstage

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Re: Guitar Amp For the Studio
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2006, 03:30:11 pm »

James Duncan wrote on Sat, 07 January 2006 12:05



By the way, the lead sounds I can get are amazing through these amps, it is the rhythm sound that is bugging the crap out of me.




Ah-ha!  No wonder I didn't understand what you are after.

You said Slash earlier.  
I ass-u-me-d lead.
Now you say rhythm.  
Different banana

(You're not talking about Izzy are you?)

BTW, I'm close to you.  If you are interested in trying out any of my amps to further your search, let me know.  I understand how hard it is to make up your mind in a GC w/500 wankers wailing away at the same time in the background.

I recently bought a chassis from a JCM 800 - 50 watt combo (model 4210)  From what I've read, it's a different circuit from the original JCM, but pretty much the same as the Model 2205 head.  (It's in the shop getting a mod removed, new tubes, and a bias job, so it'll be a little bit before it's available to try)

Other amps available are:
Epiphone - Pacemaker Tremolo Guitar Amp
Fender - Blues Junior Amp
Fender - Hot Rod Deluxe Amp
Fender - Princeton Reverb Amp
Fender - 2 x 12 Speaker Cabinet w/Peavey Sheffield speakers (Celestion wanna be's)
Gibson - Discoverer Tremolo Amp
Marshall - JCM 2000 - DSL 401 Amp
Peavey - Companion 15 Practice Amp
Peavey - Solo Practice Amp
Peavey - Special 130 Amp
Pignose - Practice Amp
Roland - Cube 40
A couple single 12 speaker boxes w/ unknown speaker models

(Got a POD 2.0 as well but I wouldn't reccomend it)

Be glad to help out sometime!
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James Duncan

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Re: Guitar Amp For the Studio
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2006, 03:49:51 pm »

OK Guys, I've got a short MP3 posted for you all to listen to.

Realize that it is not mixed yet, these are still the roughs, and the VOCALS ARE SCRATCH!!! The vocalist was singing through a cheap dynamic while playing a scratch guitar track when we first tracked the drums. We will track proper vocals once the rest of the song is tracked.

And I know, the vox are too loud, not enough bass, etc., but this was not meant to be heard yet. If you can, just listen to the guitar tones.

The only effects here are a touch of compression on the kick and snare, and a touch of reverb on the vox and snare...other than that, everything is raw (i.e. mic-to-tape).

Oh, I also added a touch of limiting to the 2-bus to bring the volume up a bit, and that is what you hear.


http://www.helixrecording.com/Music/Guitar_test.mp3

Floodstage...check your PMs.
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James Duncan

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tats_dragon

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Re: Guitar Amp For the Studio
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2006, 05:34:13 pm »

The guitar tone doesn't sound muddy it sounds like it lacks mids.

Jun
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James Duncan

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Re: Guitar Amp For the Studio
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2006, 11:44:52 pm »

tats_dragon wrote on Sat, 07 January 2006 17:34

The guitar tone doesn't sound muddy it sounds like it lacks mids.

Jun


Yeah, the muddy sounds are when the gain is lower. When I crank the gain a bit (like in the recording I posted), the muddiness goes away, but the sound is not what I am looking for. I will try boosting some mids on this recording, but I am not into fixing this sound too much since it is a compromise anyway.

Thanks for listening and for the comments tats...
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James Duncan

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
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redfro

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Re: Guitar Amp For the Studio
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2006, 02:31:34 am »

James Duncan wrote on Sat, 07 January 2006 13:45


The part about the Jubilee is that so far, that is the best-sounding amp I have heard that gets closest to the sound I want.



Isn't the Jubilee just a reissue of the JMP Master Lead 100? Or is it the JCM 800 with no master volume? I can't remember...

Quote:

I recently bought a chassis from a JCM 800 - 50 watt combo (model 4210) From what I've read, it's a different circuit from the original JCM, but pretty much the same as the Model 2205 head. (It's in the shop getting a mod removed, new tubes, and a bias job, so it'll be a little bit before it's available to try)


Too sizzly on the distortion....the worst (in my opinion) of the JCM 800's.
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Wes Pitzer
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James Duncan

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Re: Guitar Amp For the Studio
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2006, 09:43:15 am »

redfro wrote on Sun, 08 January 2006 02:31


Isn't the Jubilee just a reissue of the JMP Master Lead 100? Or is it the JCM 800 with no master volume? I can't remember...



My understanding is that it is a JCM800 of some sort. I am still trying to get the specific details, but I do know that I love how it sounds!


Quote:

I recently bought a chassis from a JCM 800 - 50 watt combo (model 4210) From what I've read, it's a different circuit from the original JCM, but pretty much the same as the Model 2205 head. (It's in the shop getting a mod removed, new tubes, and a bias job, so it'll be a little bit before it's available to try)


Quote:

Too sizzly on the distortion....the worst (in my opinion) of the JCM 800's.


So if you had to choose, what is a *good* JCM800???
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James Duncan

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
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James Duncan

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Re: Guitar Amp For the Studio
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2006, 10:05:50 am »

tats_dragon wrote on Sat, 07 January 2006 14:51

Have you experimented with different pre and power tubes in your amps?

A great site for asking guitar related questions is:
www.hugeracksinc.com
Very knowledable/helpful people on that forum.

Jun



Great link Jun...thanks Mucho!!!  Very Happy
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James Duncan

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
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dilbert

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Re: Guitar Amp For the Studio
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2006, 12:18:29 pm »

Marshall Silver Jubilee info page.
I have one of these in black tolex,
even the Fender guy's like it.
http://www.blamepro.com/mar1360.htm

Here's an EXCELLENT info page on ALL
Marshall models.
http://www.drtube.com/marshall.htm

Buzz

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Re: Guitar Amp For the Studio
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2006, 03:29:00 pm »

Hell nobody has even mentioned SPEAKERS !!! , I have a Line 6 AX212 ( I know POS right ??? ) WRONG I changed the chitty Eminance speakers to some WEBER Blue dog and Silver Bells

OMFG night and day the Line6 sounds GREAT (believe it or not !!)

I bought them because I built a 18watt Marshall  clone with el34's in it ( It sounds really nice also ) so I tried the speakers in my Line6

Later
Buzz

PS: I can actually get the tones I want using the AX212 with low noise and a very nice speaker distortion , they move ALOT OF AIR

Frob

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Re: Guitar Amp For the Studio
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2006, 04:00:53 am »

i did not read the who thred because i dont have time, but this is my sujestion. if money is an issue (and it almost always is)
first a disclamer. i hate almost every thing crate, but...

a crate v12 is a really good amp if you can find one. also get a vox TV amp either a viscount or a buckingham they are really the same thing.

mics: try a sdc like any pencil mic, or an KEL hm1
also try micing the cab, as in the wood.
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