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[ruberbullet]

I need to retune some files recorded in 440 to the european standard 442 hz....(the Steinway is tuned to 442)
What is the best way to do this ? Pitch shifting is generating artifacts in the audio...I guess resampling is the way to go...but how much...how many cents ? When i try -0.785 cents it gets wrong (I'm using Nuendo). Does anybody know the exact new sample rate ?

[Ronny]

ruberbullet wrote on Sun, 25 December 2005 17:01

I need to retune some files recorded in 440 to the european standard 442 hz....(the Steinway is tuned to 442) What is the best way to do this ? Pitch shifting is generating artifacts in the audio...I guess resampling is the way to go...but how much...how many cents ? When i try -0.785 cents it gets wrong (I'm using Nuendo). Does anybody know the exact new sample rate ?

The temperature changing by 5 degrees can alter a piano's strings by 2Hz at 440Hz and typically most people hear no difference between 440 and 442Hz. Are you hearing beat freq's in your material?

Pitch shifting only 2Hz over 442Hz should not cause audible artifacts and I certainly wouldn't change a sample rate if I had pitch shifting without altering tempo capabilities.

What is going to happen to the pitch when your song is played by another master clock?



I'm terrible at math but let me see if I can figure this out in an elementary way. The octave between 220 and 440Hz has 1200 cents and the octave between 440 and 880Hz has 1200 cents. There are 440 cycles between 440 and 880Hz, but only 220 cyles between 220 and 440Hz. ITR, one cent covers more Hz the higher you go. A hundred Hz covers a half tone or 1/12 octave. You can figure that at 440, the next half tone at 100 cents will be A# at 466.16Hz. Divide the difference between 440 and 466.16 by 100 cents and you get an average of .2616 cent per Hz, for that half tone above 440. The next half tone below 440 would be Ab at 415.3Hz. that half tone has an average of .247 cent per Hertz. Because your pitch origin and destination is close to half way between these two octaves, you can figure that the two Hz above 440 are close to .255 cent each or -.510 cents. As you can see I'm no math guy, but I come up different than -.785.

In sampling, we would need to know what rate you are running. Assuming 44.1k. 44,100 divided by 442 = 99.77 samples. Try a sample rate of 44000. I'd strongly suggest running a quality pitch shifter that maintains tempo, rather than changing pitch by sample rate, which may alter the length of the song or alter pitch when master clocks are changed. You still need to wind up with 44.1k in this example, otherwise when you play your 44.0k file at 44.1k, your pitch goes back to 442Hz. I'm not real familiar with Nuendo, perhaps it has a way to re-record a lower rate without altering pitch to destination rate, 44.1k in the case of redbook cd.  

[archtop]

I wouldn't worry about it.
we deal with more degrees of out of tune-ness within most every guitar.

2 cents in a pitch shift would seem the natural way to go.
I would suspect very little artifact from such a small shift, but  you say different, hmmm, curious.

[ruberbullet]

Thanx a lot, Ronny !
I tried your suggestion, but came out with a litle different result, (tuned by ear, trial and error and a 442 Hz test tone:)

Resampling 440 to 442 Hz:
New rate : 43901.6
Difference: -0.450 %

[ruberbullet]

To Archtop: 440 to 442 definately makes a difference, and is clearly audible enough to be a problem in my opinion. What confuses me is probably the fact that Ronny makes about a cent being different as you go up or down the scale because of the logarithmic nature of pitch. This should imply that if I wanted to tune the pitch down to 440 from 442, another ratio/cent is to be used....or not...?
Please forgive my ignorance as I am not so into this numbercrunching as far as audio goes....
What confuses me in the first place is something i found on the net about tuning:(quote:"
"know that an offset of +7.85 cents will make A4 equal to 442 Hz instead of 440 Hz"

[sdevino]

First if you are just trying to match tuning on some US recorded tracks to your 442 then varispeed the prerecorded tracks up a little to match pitch with your Steinway. There is no need to resample.

2nd, when discussing actual frequencies there is nothing logarithmic about it. 2 Hz is 2 Hz. If talking about pitch perception then perhaps one could argue about how many Hz up or down are needed for a listener to "perceive" a given pitch interval. But this does not apply when talking about matching specific frquencies.

Hook up something that has varispeed capability, set it as the clock reference, varispeed the clock up 4.4% and record your piano.

Pitch and time will be matched on either continent.

Steve

[Rail Jon Rogut]

Varispeed your word clock source to match the pitch difference for recording the piano.  After recording the piano switch back to INTERNAL clock.

With Pro Tools HD/TDM you'd use the USD or Sync I/O.  With Pro Tools LE you'd use an MDM which has a VSO function and clock via the ADAT or S/PDIF digital input.

Try Waves' Sound Shifter for changing the pitch in the digital domain.

Rail

[sdevino]

For the occaisional varispeed I hook up my ADAT XT20 (aka door stop) to the ADAT in on my 192i/o and varispeed PT TDM.

Then I do as Rail suggested and return to internal clock.

Steve

[tamasdragon]

Pitch shift with a high quality plugin like waves. And do not forget that 440 to 442 makes a difference. We usually track orchestras for theatre work, believe me that can be auible.
Regards Tamas Dragon

[sdevino]

tamasdragon wrote on Thu, 29 December 2005 08:24

Pitch shift with a high quality plugin like waves. And do not forget that 440 to 442 makes a difference. We usually track orchestras for theatre work, believe me that can be auible. Regards Tamas Dragon

Pitch shifting has artifacts. Varispeed has few or no artifacts depending on the clock used.

Steve

[Rail Jon Rogut]

I think he meant that the 440/442 difference is audible and "makes a difference".

Rail

[Jonas as]

The difference between 440 and 442 is BIG!!

For one thing Horn players are much more on pitch in 442Hz.

String players HAS to be in 442Hz to have anything near great pitch when playing togheter, they are so into hearing the way their instruments sound at 442Hz, that 440 is very difficult for them to do.

Also spreading projects out between studios with pianos that are 440 and 442 is a PITA. Using Orchestral instruments like Vibes or chimes etc. That in europe are 442Hz is also a PITA.

440Hz is standard european pitch, 442 is used in orchestras and for pianos in the big halls and some studios. Typically also conservatories.

[minister]

bora wrote on Sun, 01 January 2006 20:09

440Hz is standard european pitch, 442 is used in orchestras and for pianos in the big halls and some studios. Typically also conservatories.

i thought the American standard was A=440Hz and the European standard was A=442Hz.  at least that is what i was taught and what i found when players would come from europe-->airport-->my studio.  happened twice.  they were tuned to 442, and we had to retune.

[Jonas as]

No we have 440 aswell.

442Hz is more or less only for the classical stuff.

[minister]

...i was talking about classical.  

ah, i didn't know pop, rock etc. was 440 in europe

[Tomás Mulcahy]

442Hz is officially the European standard, as used by all broadcasters in Europe, so if you ever enter the Eurovision somg contest you have to use 442Hz and forget about your future in the music business .

It is a PITA because most commercial recording studios use 440Hz. Some older Japanese synths default to 442Hz also. I will add my vote- varispeed is the way to go, and there is definitely an audible difference between the two standards.