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Author Topic: New industry standard reference monitors ?  (Read 18648 times)

Augustine Leudar

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New industry standard reference monitors ?
« on: December 23, 2005, 10:18:18 am »

Although generally disliked or years NS10s were the industry standard monitors allowing studios to reference on the same gear worldwide. As most of you know production stopped a couple of years ago, so what my question is :

If any, which speaker is emerging as the new industry standard monitor ?

Eric Rudd

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Re: New industry reference standard monitors ?
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2005, 10:34:46 am »

Augustine Leudar wrote on Fri, 23 December 2005 09:18


If any, which speaker will take their place as the industry standard monitor ?




Speaker opinions are like assholes....everyone's got a pair.

Eric
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Ashermusic

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Re: New industry reference standard monitors ?
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2005, 11:33:09 am »

Here in L.A. more and more I am seeing Dynaudio BM6As.

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Augustine Leudar

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Re: New industry reference standard monitors ?
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2005, 03:10:19 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Fri, 23 December 2005 16:33

Here in L.A. more and more I am seeing Dynaudio BM6As.





hmmm it would be nice if something with a digital input as well as analogue became popular but they are nice monitors.

Augustine Leudar

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Re: New industry reference standard monitors ?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2005, 03:13:44 pm »

Eric Rudd wrote on Fri, 23 December 2005 15:34



Speaker opinions are like assholes....everyone's got a pair.

Eric


I know what you mean, but im not so interested in personal preferences as whether or not something is presently emerging as the next industry standard . Ive edited my original question to make it clearer.

Giovanni Speranza

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Re: New industry reference standard monitors ?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2005, 06:45:39 pm »

I think that there are some false myths about the NS-10
The NS 10 were used in top productions just to balance the voice vs the music. PERIOD.
All those NS-10 finding a place over SSLs, NEVEs and behind ALL the sacred monsters of the'80s created a false myth. Too many people (me included) thought that those were mixing tools.

Since the mid '90s the Genelec loudspeakers became a standard for many studios thanks to their precision. It's really easy to EQ with them.

During the last 5 years the sonic character of the top 20 music is no more important. It's the panties that matters.

But if you still want to make real music i still suggest the Genelec because they help you a lot.

djui5

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2005, 08:22:56 pm »

A lot of people are buying ADAM S3A's, but I wouldn't call them an industry standard yet.

The NS-10's still hold their place and have yet to be knocked off as king of standard studio monitors.
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nob turner

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2005, 10:51:47 pm »

in order for a speaker model to become as ubiquitous as nasty 10's, they'll have to be cheap.
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Augustine Leudar

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Re: New industry reference standard monitors ?
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2005, 12:56:12 pm »

Giovanni Speranza wrote on Fri, 23 December 2005 23:45



But if you still want to make real music i still suggest the Genelec because they help you a lot.


thats kind of what ive been looking at. The adams are obviously good but the price  Rolling Eyes to much for me at the moment anyway, genelec are not far off in terms of quality and about a quarter the price too.

Bob Olhsson

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2005, 01:04:54 pm »

Augustine Leudar wrote on Fri, 23 December 2005 09:18

Although generally disliked or years NS10s were the industry standard monitors allowing studios to reference on the same gear worldwide.


This is not at all why people ever used NS-10s!

It's all about the three-way relationship between full-range mains, real world speakers and NS-10s.

They remain a standard quite simply because they work very well as a reference point for OTHER speakers exactly as JBL 4310s and Auratones did before them.

Eric Rudd

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Re: New industry reference standard monitors ?
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2005, 02:07:20 pm »

Giovanni Speranza wrote on Fri, 23 December 2005 17:45

I think that there are some false myths about the NS-10
The NS 10 were used in top productions just to balance the voice vs the music. PERIOD.



This is a generalization that simply isn't true.

I worked on many, many, many records during my tenure at Ocean Way (as I did later as an independent) where the first engineer would work almost exclusively on NS10's. Interestingly enough, it was the mains in many studios engineers didn't trust because they were too inconsistent. (although OWR were the best-sounding big speakers you would have ever hoped to hear).

I know for a fact that Kevin Killen mixed Paula Cole's first album "Harbinger" on NS10s only and no automation. It was the record that set her career into motion. For years and years they were all he'd use.

The above quote does, however, touch on one of the many positive attributes of the speaker. In order to appreciate the dominance of the NS10 at the time, its usage must be taken in historical context.

To answer the original poster...No, I don't think there will be an industry-standard speaker again. There are simply too many choices now (which touches on one of the reasons the NS10 rose to industry prominence in the first place).

Eric
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Augustine Leudar

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2005, 02:18:31 pm »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Sat, 24 December 2005 18:04

Augustine Leudar wrote on Fri, 23 December 2005 09:18

Although generally disliked or years NS10s were the industry standard monitors allowing studios to reference on the same gear worldwide.


This is not at all why people ever used NS-10s!

It's all about the three-way relationship between full-range mains, real world speakers and NS-10s.

They remain a standard quite simply because they work very well as a reference point for OTHER speakers exactly as JBL 4310s and Auratones did before them.


Yes I know, if its sounds good on ns10s itll sound good on anything etc etc however they were also useful in that to having an industry standard so you could take your work to another studio and continue monitoring on the same speakers.
Considering many engineers seems to slag them off as the worst speaker ever its amazing how much good work has been done with ns10s. I wonder why people hate them so, im quite fond of them myself.


I think its probably because its human nature to moan.

Bob Olhsson

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2005, 11:24:37 am »

Augustine Leudar wrote on Sat, 24 December 2005 13:18

...Yes I know, if its sounds good on ns10s itll sound good on anything etc etc however...
That isn't true at all. If it sounds good on NS-10s AND the others you stand half a chance of being within a range that can be easily compensated in mastering.

You can't isolate the NS-10 from being just one point of reference within the context of a mixer's home listening setup, some of the better control room mains and the full range speakers today's top mastering engineers use. Nobody good has ever just mixed on NS-10s and then trusted on faith that everything is always going to sound great. Great mixers almost always check out their mixes in a wide variety of listening environments. Monitors are chosen by the RESULTS, not by how pleasing they sound in the control room.

Augustine Leudar

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2005, 04:23:35 pm »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Mon, 26 December 2005 16:24

Augustine Leudar wrote on Sat, 24 December 2005 13:18

...Yes I know, if its sounds good on ns10s itll sound good on anything etc etc however...
That isn't true at all. If it sounds good on NS-10s AND the others you stand half a chance of being within a range that can be easily compensated in mastering.

You can't isolate the NS-10 from being just one point of reference within the context of a mixer's home listening setup, some of the better control room mains and the full range speakers today's top mastering engineers use. Nobody good has ever just mixed on NS-10s and then trusted on faith that everything is always going to sound great. Great mixers almost always check out their mixes in a wide variety of listening environments. Monitors are chosen by the RESULTS, not by how pleasing they sound in the control room.


True enough, listening to your mix on as many speakers as possible to get an idea of the mix is a good idea, some studios even have crappy hi fis to hear what the mix sounds like on them .
Bearing all this in mind, what current speakers would you recommend as translating well onto other systems ?

Bob Olhsson

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2005, 06:49:47 pm »

I'm hearing good things about Adams. Lots of people haven't found anything that works as well for them as NS-10s. Since they are no longer available, some folks will probably move back in the direction of using a larger number of alternatives in the control room like we did before NS-10s and NS-4s which worked even better but almost immediately went away.

JamSync

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2005, 06:53:06 pm »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Mon, 26 December 2005 17:49

I'm hearing good things about Adams. Lots of people haven't found anything that works as well for them as NS-10s. Since they are no longer available, some folks will probably move back in the direction of using a larger number of alternatives in the control room like we did before NS-10s and NS-4s which worked even better but almost immediately went away.


I hate NS-10s. They over-emphasize female vocals.

oldtimeblues

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Re: New industry reference standard monitors ?
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2005, 01:48:48 pm »

[/quote]

Speaker opinions are like assholes....everyone's got a pair.

Eric[/quote]

Hmmm, I haven't looked lately but I thought we all had only 1 AH! Do you have a pair? Twisted Evil
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Kenny Holloway

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2006, 05:03:43 pm »

Quote:

...Considering many engineers seems to slag them off as the worst speaker ever its amazing how much good work has been done with ns10s. I wonder why people hate them so, im quite fond of them myself.

I think its probably because its human nature to moan.


The biggest complaints about the NS-10s have always been the listener fatigue and the sonic quality.  It's a bit like complaining that the pocketknife is a crappy screwdriver.  Different speakers are intended to be listened to for different purposes.

The NS-10s were never intended to be used as a loudspeaker (client playback) or for listening to at high SPLs over a great period of time.  They do an insurpassable job of spatially locating things in the mix as well as going small and mono in mixdown.

The defacto standard was an engineer's benefit, not the reason for success.  I agree that I do not forsee a replacement industry standard for nearfields.  The downside is the new need for engineers to learn the different speakers.  Another great loss for the commercial studio.  FWIW, I have yet to find a commercial studio getting rid of their NS-10s, so it's still the standard.
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Timeline

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2006, 11:13:29 pm »

I would say the M-Audio BX8 powered speaker because they contain an 8" woofer, provide more settings and curve variety, have sold thousands and are damn cheap!
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Augustine Leudar

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2006, 04:09:17 pm »

Ive got a feeling its going to be the mackie 824s. theyve got a kind of dull sound and theyre popular at colleges. More tellingly I auditioned some today and amongst others they sounded the most muddy ! I asked the engineer why they were so popular thinking he would tell me that they were just really "honest" instead guess what he said ? :

"because if you can get something to sound good on those things it will sound good on anything "

Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes

compasspnt

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2008, 09:49:49 am »

I mixed on NS-10's for years (supplemented by Tannoy Little Red 12's for comparison).

Wouldn't do that now, but it would work.

Adam: Can't like them, no matter how much I try.

Genelecs:  I like my original-year issue 1031's, but later much-newer one's don't sound the same to me.  Can't stand the new 80xx series.
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thedoc

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2008, 01:09:10 am »

Different strokes...I'm liking my 8040's.
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Bill_Urick

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Questions for Mr. Manning and Mr. Olhsson
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2008, 07:48:57 am »

Mr. Manning, what were your feelings about the Event ASP8's used on the Panic session? Did you use these for mixing as well?

Mr. Olhsson, regarding your statement
Quote:

 It's all about the three-way relationship between full-range mains, real world speakers and NS-10s.
could you expound on that concept and give some examples of what you consider to be "real world speakers"?

I'm primarily using JBL 4320's and NS10's (NS10's with a sub) but haven't settled on that in between speaker yet.

Thanks!
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compasspnt

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Re: Questions for Mr. Manning and Mr. Olhsson
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2008, 09:40:23 am »

Bill Urick wrote on Mon, 10 March 2008 07:48

Mr. Manning, what were your feelings about the Event ASP8's used on the Panic session? Did you use these for mixing as well?



The more I use the SP8's, the more I like them.

For tracking/overdubbing, they remind me somehow of the days when we used "loud" non-internally-amped "old-style" mon's like the JBL's or Altecs.  I can get some more reasonable vol without straining the speakers constantly.

Their overall signature is much like my original version) 1031's.  And they work much better for such work than my 1032's.

For mixing, on that album I did use the 1031's as the "mains," and cross-referenced with the SP8's.  I don't know the 8's well enough yet to make critical mix decisions at low levels.

I do also plan on experimenting with my SP6's for that purpose soon though.
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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2008, 11:50:09 am »

it'll be iPod earbuds from now on!
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Bill_Urick

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2008, 09:48:23 pm »

aranos wrote on Sun, 16 March 2008 11:50

it'll be iPod earbuds from now on!


I guess that could be a justifiable option!
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Re: Questions for Mr. Manning and Mr. Olhsson
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2008, 01:13:06 pm »

compasspnt wrote on Mon, 10 March 2008 14:40

Bill Urick wrote on Mon, 10 March 2008 07:48

Mr. Manning, what were your feelings about the Event ASP8's used on the Panic session? Did you use these for mixing as well?



The more I use the SP8's, the more I like them.

For tracking/overdubbing, they remind me somehow of the days when we used "loud" non-internally-amped "old-style" mon's like the JBL's or Altecs.  I can get some more reasonable vol without straining the speakers constantly.

Their overall signature is much like my original version) 1031's.  And they work much better for such work than my 1032's.

For mixing, on that album I did use the 1031's as the "mains," and cross-referenced with the SP8's.  I don't know the 8's well enough yet to make critical mix decisions at low levels.

I do also plan on experimenting with my SP6's for that purpose soon though.



Terry, did you ever dust off the old Altec A7s of your youth?

Andy
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compasspnt

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Re: Questions for Mr. Manning and Mr. Olhsson
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2008, 08:49:29 pm »

Andy Simpson wrote on Fri, 28 March 2008 13:13

Terry, did you ever dust off the old Altec A7s of your youth?



I actually still have one pair mounted in the soffit in our B studio tracking room, but I haven't turned them on in years.
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Andy Simpson

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Re: Questions for Mr. Manning and Mr. Olhsson
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2008, 10:27:02 am »

compasspnt wrote on Sat, 29 March 2008 01:49

Andy Simpson wrote on Fri, 28 March 2008 13:13

Terry, did you ever dust off the old Altec A7s of your youth?



I actually still have one pair mounted in the soffit in our B studio tracking room, but I haven't turned them on in years.



What was the last thing you heard through them? Do they still work?

Andy
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compasspnt

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Re: Questions for Mr. Manning and Mr. Olhsson
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2008, 11:25:14 pm »

Andy Simpson wrote on Sat, 29 March 2008 10:27

What was the last thing you heard through them?



Wow, I can't even remember.

Quote:

Do they still work?



Well, I will just have to turn them on and see!
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maxim

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2008, 12:11:34 am »

warning: amateur perspective

i have no experience with ns10's, but when i auditioned all the powered speakers in a noisy paris shop 3 or 4 years ago, yamaha msp5's seemed to create the most stable image without too much hype (= boring but reliable)

having been using them for a couple of years, the only problem to report is the  lack of bottom end, so double-checking is always required, usually with a pair of trusty old headphones...


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Andy Simpson

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Re: Questions for Mr. Manning and Mr. Olhsson
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2008, 05:01:27 pm »

compasspnt wrote on Sun, 30 March 2008 05:25

Andy Simpson wrote on Sat, 29 March 2008 10:27

What was the last thing you heard through them?



Wow, I can't even remember.

Quote:

Do they still work?



Well, I will just have to turn them on and see!



If you do manage to turn them on without them crumbling to dust (!) - try out some of my demos on them. The resolution difference will be much more obvious than on direct-radiators.

this one is quite brutal on decent horns...so it might finish them off if they are a little crumbly!

Andy
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Han S.

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2008, 05:52:46 pm »

For me the NS10 is still the standard, it's a speaker you'll love or hate, there's not much in between, but it's a reliable monitor and with a decent sub you can make really good sounding mixes.

The NS10 doesn't match with every amp, on some amps it sounds horrible, but find a good amp and work very hard. And then even the NS10 will sound great and you're a winner.
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Ian Visible

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2008, 12:17:00 pm »

Has anyone any experience with the Studiospares Classic SN10?

http://studiospares.com/Product.aspx?code=248000

Dominick

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2008, 03:38:40 pm »

These are obviously the new reference monitor

index.php/fa/8562/0/
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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2008, 03:39:23 pm »

Dominick wrote on Sat, 19 April 2008 20:38

These are obviously the new reference monitor

index.php/fa/8562/0/


For that BIG sound.
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Andy Simpson

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2008, 10:04:14 am »

While we're on the subject of Ipod & headphones, does anybody have any experience of canal-type ear-phones?

These present an interesting dB/w/m figure, similar to that of a high-efficiency horn system.

Andy
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vegas4ever

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2008, 12:50:29 pm »

Han S. wrote on Thu, 03 April 2008 16:52

For me the NS10 is still the standard, it's a speaker you'll love or hate, there's not much in between, but it's a reliable monitor and with a decent sub you can make really good sounding mixes.

The NS10 doesn't match with every amp, on some amps it sounds horrible, but find a good amp and work very hard. And then even the NS10 will sound great and you're a winner.


Second that... I love my NS10
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David Barton

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2008, 01:48:33 pm »

andy,

i use the shure E5 and ultimate ears 5pro. the E5s have great low end but they're universal fit. the 5pros are custom but lack low end. i should have gone for the ambient feature, but that's neither here nor there. both are dual-driver types. i use both for tracking but not for mixing. they need a very quiet amp to work properly. by quiet i mean a very high S/N and also an amp that doesn't get very loud, as these are extremely sensitive drivers. i have a firepod but it is far too noisy. surprisingly, the furman remote mixer (HRM-16) is quiet enough.

hope this helps.

~db
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Andy Simpson

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2008, 05:00:38 pm »

dibbs wrote on Sat, 10 May 2008 19:48

andy,

i use the shure E5 and ultimate ears 5pro. the E5s have great low end but they're universal fit. the 5pros are custom but lack low end. i should have gone for the ambient feature, but that's neither here nor there. both are dual-driver types. i use both for tracking but not for mixing. they need a very quiet amp to work properly. by quiet i mean a very high S/N and also an amp that doesn't get very loud, as these are extremely sensitive drivers. i have a firepod but it is far too noisy. surprisingly, the furman remote mixer (HRM-16) is quiet enough.

hope this helps.

~db


Hi David,

How would you describe the dynamics? Any different to conventional headphones?

Thanks.

Andy
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David Barton

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Re: New industry standard reference monitors ?
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2008, 08:17:24 pm »

Andy,

sometimes they feel a bit confined, perhaps because the things are in my ears with no air to interact with, but if something is too loud, it's transient hits and my ears and it HURTS! if they don't fit, they may be a bit wonky, but if everything is right, i forget i'm wearing them. i think they may actually have better range than headphones.

i will say this though: some singers tell me that IEMs do weird things to pitch, and so they will sing with one ear out. i know what they're talking about, but it doesn't bother me.

~db
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bigaudioblowhard

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Re: New industry reference standard monitors ?
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2008, 12:43:29 pm »

Giovanni Speranza wrote on Fri, 23 December 2005 16:45

I think that there are some false myths about the NS-10
The NS 10 were used in top productions just to balance the voice vs the music. PERIOD.
All those NS-10 finding a place over SSLs, NEVEs and behind ALL the sacred monsters of the'80s created a false myth. Too many people (me included) thought that those were mixing tools.

Since the mid '90s the Genelec loudspeakers became a standard for many studios thanks to their precision. It's really easy to EQ with them.

During the last 5 years the sonic character of the top 20 music is no more important. It's the panties that matters.

But if you still want to make real music i still suggest the Genelec because they help you a lot.


I'm no Engrish Major, but isn't "false myth" kinda like a double negative, making it a...a...oh now I'm confused again.

bab
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