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Author Topic: Compression  (Read 57141 times)

j.hall

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Re: Compression
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2005, 03:00:39 PM »

Quote:


Substitue "cliche-riddled, immediately-dated artefacts" for "seriously amazing sounding records" and you've hit another nail on the head.



are you implying that your mixes are not dated, or cliche-riddled simply because they are not compressed?  i think that's as bold and misleading as my statements.....don't you?

to continue with our example.  can you honestly tell me that tchad blake's records sound dated solely due to his decisions in the mix phase?

Peter Gabriel - Up
Soul Coughing - El Osos, Irresistible Bliss, and Ruby Vroom
Low - Trust

let me get this straight.  you claim to be a "neutral" engineer.  you are "the employee of the band".  you simply do exactly what they want done.  so, do the bands come in and pick all the mics, where they want them used, where they are to be positioned, how they want you to print sounds to tape?  if a band comes in and wants a "tchad blake-esque" mix, can you deliver?  you do what the band wants right?

don't you think that's as large of a disservice to the client as the guy who tells them what to play, and compresses everything for the sake of the "gimmick"?

unfortunately, this will all come off as very aggressive, when that isn't my intention
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electrical

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Re: Compression
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2005, 03:59:59 PM »

j.hall wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 15:00


are you implying that your mixes are not dated, or cliche-riddled simply because they are not compressed?  i think that's as bold and misleading as my statements.....don't you?

No, I'm saying the folks you put up as examples have made a lot of records that were instantly dated and cliche-riddled, and the degree of compression is one of the cliches that instantly dates them.

Quote:

to continue with our example.  can you honestly tell me that tchad blake's records sound dated solely due to his decisions in the mix phase?

Yep, that's probably where it comes form.

Quote:

Peter Gabriel - Up
Soul Coughing - El Osos, Irresistible Bliss, and Ruby Vroom

Yep.
Quote:

Low - Trust

Well, here's another point: When working with geniuses of unique merit, no amount of production can stifle them.

Quote:

let me get this straight.  you claim to be a "neutral" engineer.  you are "the employee of the band".  you simply do exactly what they want done.  so, do the bands come in and pick all the mics, where they want them used, where they are to be positioned, how they want you to print sounds to tape?

No, that's my job. They tell me what they like and don't like, and I'm supposed to figure the technical part out along the lines they describe.

Quote:

if a band comes in and wants a "tchad blake-esque" mix, can you deliver?  you do what the band wants right?

It's never happened, but if it does, I'll take a shot and let you know how I do.

Quote:

don't you think that's as large of a disservice to the client as the guy who tells them what to play, and compresses everything for the sake of the "gimmick"?

No, I think doing what the band wants me to do is the bare minimum they can expect.

Quote:

unfortunately, this will all come off as very aggressive, when that isn't my intention

Don't sweat it. It's the interlink. In person we're all much more loveable.
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Ross Hogarth

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Re: Compression
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2005, 04:08:41 PM »

here we are again, deep in the "albini"
no shades of grey
only black and white as far as the eye can see

compression is a tool
it can also be a paintbrush
BUT
if you stay with and inside of Steve's argument that the engineer does not make artistic decisions
then compression cannot be an extension of artistic expression
now granted
most if not many engineers, have no clue what they are doing
and so
when they are using strong tool like compression
they are doing damage
but
take someone who know what they are doing and considers the engineering field an extension of artistic expression
then compression can be used as a means to an end of that artistic expression
it really goes to the heart of the debate of engineer as an artist or as a carpenter framing for the band and band only
this is where I veer off the road ...
Steve and I have had this argument before
I believe that we can be artists in the control room without ego and without taking the vision away from the artist (band)
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electrical

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Re: Compression
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2005, 04:24:20 PM »

Ross Hogarth wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 16:08

here we are again, deep in the "albini"
no shades of grey
only black and white as far as the eye can see

When you say things like that, it seems like you're not even reading this stuff.

Quote:

compression is a tool
it can also be a paintbrush

It is one of many tools for changing pre-existing sound. Before one starts compressing something, and then worrying about the subtleties of how "expensive" it should sound, etc., there must first be an impulse to compress it. I have that impulse rarely, and others have it often. That's the key here -- the eagerness to manipulate sound rather than deal with it as it already is. That's why more harm than good is done.

Quote:

I believe that we can be artists in the control room without ego and without taking the vision away from the artist (band)

I guess I don't have that high an opinion of myself. I think I'm an experienced specialist in a technical field, trying to help a band use a sometimes-convoluted process to make a recording. I recognize that my contribution to their record is subordinate to theirs to an enormous degree. I would never suggest that I am "collaborating" with them. I am working for them.
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Level

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Re: Compression
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2005, 05:04:35 PM »

Steve...would you ever say...you have a "signature sound"? Reason..I do know engineers that get into doing things a predictable way and stay with that. You can hear the "signature" coming through..although on live acts, none of that signature is retained..thus meaning that the recording process/mix is certain "contributing" to the art.

I try to be totally diverse and start with a clean sheet and an 'unplugged patch bay'..except..I no longer use the patch bays.

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electrical

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Re: Compression
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2005, 05:16:14 PM »

Level wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 17:04

Steve...would you ever say...you have a "signature sound"?

I do not want people to think about me when they hear other people's records.
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redfro

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Re: Compression
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2005, 05:50:11 PM »

Ross Hogarth wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 15:08


most if not many engineers, have no clue what they are doing



Interesting point. I think ALL engineers "fake it" to a certain degree. I remember Steve saying almost this exact thing at TapOpCon a few years ago. I also seem to remember a lot of people in the audience breathing a sigh of relief. It was a "Thank god I'm not alone" kinda thing.

Totally off post, just saw the parallel and found it amusing. I now return you to your regularly scheduled post...
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maxim

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Re: Compression
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2005, 09:36:49 PM »

hands up who thinks they can recognise an 'albini' record

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bobkatz

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Re: Compression
« Reply #53 on: January 01, 2006, 12:05:11 PM »

maxim wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 21:36

hands up who thinks they can recognise an 'albini' record





!!! Of course, they sound like the band does! Steve is a facilitator, I just think he puts down his role too much. Every decision he makes affects the sound of the final product. Including the ones that help the vibe in the studio.

BK
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electrical

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Re: Compression
« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2006, 01:53:46 PM »

maxim wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 21:36

hands up who thinks they can recognise an 'albini' record

I'll bet some people think that. I'll bet they can't.
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Colin Frangos

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Re: Compression
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2006, 03:29:13 PM »

maxim wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 18:36

hands up who thinks they can recognise an 'albini' record



Lessee here... Just off the top of my head, here are some of the records I own that Steve recorded: Mclusky, Nina Nastasia, The Ex, Shorty, Uzeda, Don Caballero, Palace, The Jesus Lizard, The Oxbow, Federation X. And of course, Shellac. I'm sure there are others on the shelf, I just haven't looked.

I'm trying to think of what ties them all together. They're very natural-sounding records without excessive effects or processing applied to them. The studio as effect is de-emphasized. In short, they sound like bands playing music in a room. To imply that this is an aesthetic choice on his part is silly. Yeah, in the most literal sense it's a different way of doing things (or at least not the rock standard), and there are choices made in the execution, but that doesn't qualify it as a "signature sound".

And what's more, there are just as many other records on the shelf by different engineers that I could say the same about. The majority of jazz and classical records shoot for the same thing, and I own a lot of those. It's a good goal for any engineer.



Doesn't this debate get old after a while? I'm tired of arguing about the validity of Steve's approach, and don't understand why it's an issue to so many people. And the more I think about it, I don't really care to get why it's an issue. There are a lot more interesting things to talk about.
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pg666

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Re: Compression
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2006, 03:56:00 PM »

hah,

in another thread on J's forum someone asked who recorded a specific dirty three record and i knew SA recorded some of them, but not all of them. i've heard a bunch of them and i can't figure out which ones are which! they all sound like the dirty three and not who recorded them (which is a great thing).

which brings up another point; there are many other engineers who use that kind of 'hands-off' approach.

p.s. a lot of the songs are just from mp3s, hence why i can't just go look up the credits.
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Fibes

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Re: Compression
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2006, 05:21:31 PM »

electrical wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 15:59

Quote:

Low - Trust

Well, here's another point: When working with geniuses of unique merit, no amount of production can stifle them.



....or absence of production...



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electrical

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Re: Compression
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2006, 05:39:41 PM »

Fibes wrote on Sun, 01 January 2006 17:21


....or absence of production...


Have you ever listened to a record and thought, gee, this sounds too natural? Too much like the real thing?

I haven't. I have thought the opposite though, more often than not.
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minister

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Re: Compression
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2006, 06:24:42 PM »

electrical wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 16:16

Level wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 17:04

Steve...would you ever say...you have a "signature sound"?

I do not want people to think about me when they hear other people's records.
sure...but let's not go to extremes here.  then why would anyone hire you?  because you are the best faciltator?  'cause you're cheaper than any other facilitator?  there are reasons why you have first time and repeat business.  because you don't use compression (much)?  'cause you make things sound "natural"?

look, give monk a standard, and, dammed if it doesn't sound like monk and not a standard.  you might say, well there's an artist.  and there are those that play it in the style of the standard.  and you might call them a parrot or a facilitator.

but surely when you are "interpretting" the bands desires and making your "technical" decisions, you are doing so in the way that YOU know, with YOUR setup.  you are interacting with the situation.  you are not merely an impartial translator. nobody is.  some AE's pollute a record with their stamp; some attempt to simply realize a band's vision.  but along the way, you do have an influence.  the bands, A&R people, etc. REPOND to what you do.  what they hear from what you are doing -- they respond and get excited or push it further or a different direction.  and they DON'T respond as favorably to what someone else does, or in the way they do it.  otherwise, they would go there.  surely your bias (like we all have and your tape has...)comes into play for SOME of this.  but, yes, you strive to achieve the band's sound not yours!  

yet put that band in YOUR studio with a different AE.  would it SOUND the SAME?  or, this band comes in to re-record everything 2 years later and you have merely maintained your studio.  same setup.  would it sound the SAME?  i contend it would not (though it might be similar)
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