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Author Topic: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.  (Read 9995 times)

rankus

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Re: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2005, 01:48:17 PM »

maxdimario wrote on Fri, 23 December 2005 05:19

Quote:

The shareholders, in the millions, who invest in mutual funds and stocks etc. demand "return"... They are you and me, and we have no say in the day to day actions of the corporation either. In fact we will move our money to get a greater return thus ensuring maximum "economic consumption" by our mindless corporations...





politicians are really subject to the headless monsters, and one gets the feeling that all the people who work in finance and politics are trying to grab what they can before it all explodes.



..


Yes this is my point .. the polititians are just puppets to the headless corps...

If they try to steer a country away from potential growth, the headless ones will replace your government (in 4 years)....with one that is favorable to the "bottom line"... don't think that our silly elections are anything more than smoke and mirrors...He with the biggest bankroll usually wins... and the one most willing to be a puppet for the headless ones gets the biggest bankroll.

This is where GB has come from fellows.... He is just a pawn... that will be replaced with another one... of the same ilk.. (soon I hope)....
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Barry Hufker

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Re: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2005, 06:50:02 PM »

I have to be very careful when talking about Jews.  At no time, nor in any way, to I for one second want to sound Anti-Semitic.  I am not.  I am trying to give, what I believe to be, real reasons for the way things are.

Pre-World War II, the U.S. couldn't really care about Jews, Blacks or any minority.  Part of the proof of that is how we handled the Japanese surrender at the end of the war.  We, seeing them as less human than our European ancestors, made them sign a very harsh surrender.

It is only after the establishment of the state of Israel and the greater rise to power of American Jews that we started supporting Israel. That and the fact that we needed a "friend" in the Middle East.

Ivan, you sound like me in my angrier moods.  A quick story: when my  son was in day care in the 1980s, the teacher had the children draw pictures of President and Mrs. Reagan.  When I arrived to pick up my son, the teacher said, "you need to see what Paul drew."  As I walked it was easy to see all the All kids had done a wonderful job of drawing the President,Mrs. Reagan and the White House.  They had great captions too, such as "here are Mr and Mrs Reagan at the White House." or "This is the President and some day I would like to be President."  As I walked further, I finally got to Paul's drawing of the P and Mrs. R.  Paul's caption read, "the president is a criminal."  I was *so proud*!

Is the U.S. a horrible place? No.  Is our government the worst in the world? No.  It is just less than the American people and the world deserve.  Lock 'em up boys!

Barry

 
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t(h)ik

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Re: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2005, 08:15:02 PM »

Barry,

We couldn't care less about minorities?

Since when.

We fought a civil war over minorities.

We have always been leading the rest of the world in this area except for maybe England.

What was Japan's harsh surrender terms?  Being rebuilt and forced into democracy?  An end to cannabalism?  No more invading every Asian country?

Bush is a criminal because you say so?

lemme nough

and again, please believe I am in a debate with you now...not a pissing match.

I hope you have a nice holiday season.

tik
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Barry Hufker

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Re: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2005, 11:58:38 PM »

Tik,

Please know I am not offended.  I don't take personally what you are saying.  We can disagree and still be friends.  No problem.  And please let me know if I cross a line with you.

First, we didn't fight a civil war because of slaves.  We fought a civil war because of economics and politics.  The south needed slaves to work their huge plantations.  This is how plantation owners made their money -- no labor wages.  There were no other large industries in the south except for cotton and tobacco.

The north, which was more industrialized, had abolitionists who were trying to push the slavery issue to the forefront.  In essence, the north, through government, social pressures, etc. were  pressuring the south to change its economy, which the south knew it couldn't do and survive.  Its two big exports were very labor intensive.

Ironically, the people working in the factories in the north were treated almost as poorly as the south's slaves.  With children working, with long hours and low pay, with owing money to the company store while living in company owned houses, the north's factory workers were just as much economic hostages as the slaves.  But no abolitionists opposed that.  We don't get that fight until around the early 1900s with the rise of labor unions.

As an issue of "states' rights", the south told the north that they can't dictate anything to the south and are hypocritical besides (because of factory worker conditions). The south tried to succeed from the union.  And the north said no.  The south started a war they could never win.  The industrialized north had the ability to manufacture arms, ships and ammunition.  They also had more men than the south.  And that is essentially how the war was won.  It was a war of attrition.  We just kept throwing more people and guns at them than they had.

Lincoln's "Emancipation Proclamation" was only made because England wouldn't support us unless we opposed slavery.  So the Emancipation Proclamation declared slaves to be free -- that is if they were above the Mason-Dixon line, where slaves were already free.

So to say we fought a war over a minority is not true.  If it were, we never would have had to go through the Civil Rights movement of the '60s or face the racism we still have today.

Japan mentioned in the next posting.

Barry
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Barry Hufker

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Re: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2005, 12:07:04 AM »

The Japanese:

I am quoting extensively from an article by Kiroku Hanai.  Kiroku Hanai, a former editorial writer for the Tokyo Shimbun, writes on a wide range of issues, including international relations.

In his "War Without Mercy," John Dower quoted Charles Lindbergh as writing in his diary that U.S. soldiers thought nothing of shooting to kill Japanese prisoners of war and soldiers who had surrendered in New Guinea.

The Tokyo Trials did not take up abuses committed by Allied soldiers against prisoners of war. Furthermore, judges were appointed only from the Allied Powers and the trials were often used as a forum for taking revenge.

The Emperor, the supreme wartime leader, was exempted from the trials, as was the commander of the Japanese Army's Unit 731, which used humans in experiments with biological weapons in China, in exchange for data on the results of experiments. All this damaged the fairness of the trials.

Only the Indian judge, Radhabinod Pal, argued that Japan was not responsible for the war, but his opinion was not made public until 1952, after the Allied occupation of Japan ended. Pal later became a symbol of Japanese conservatives disavowing the Tokyo Trials. In June this year, a monument praising his conduct was erected at Tokyo's Yasukuni Shrine, which honors the military war dead, as well as Japan's convicted Class-A war criminals.

If the Tokyo Trials had been conducted more fairly and openly with the participation of judges from neutral nations, Japanese conservatives would not be denouncing the trials as they do now. The conservatives' campaign was triggered by a row over historical perceptions in some Japanese history textbooks. The whole episode is highly regrettable.

Theories abound about why the United States decided to drop the atomic bombs on Japan, such as that the U.S.:

* sought to establish military superiority over the Soviet Union in anticipation of a rivalry in the postwar years;

* wanted to have the international community see the power of the bombs in a real war, with the hope of eventually placing nuclear weapons under international control;

* hoped to demoralize the Japanese and avoid the 1 million U.S. casualties expected if Japan was invaded; or

* was angered when Japanese Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki ignored the Potsdam Declaration at a news conference.

The third theory, purportedly based on a magazine article written after the war by former U.S. Secretary of the Army Henry Stimson with the aim of sidestepping criticism of the atomic bombings, is believed by many Americans. But in reality, according to some reports, the U.S. military had estimated the total number of fatal victims and the wounded from a ground war in Japan at 30,000 to 40,000, on the basis of battlefield experiences on Okinawa and Iwo Jima.

Torii says in his book that President Truman's priority was to intimidate Moscow and that Truman believed the U.S. should not let Japan surrender until it completed the atomic bombings of the two Japanese cities. For that purpose, Torii speculates, Truman schemed with Secretary of State James Byrnes to remove any assurances of retaining the Emperor from a draft of the Potsdam Declaration that set the terms of Japanese surrender. These accounts, if true, would imply that Truman had no conscience.

In 1996, the International Criminal Court came up with an advisory opinion that the threat or use of nuclear weapons contravenes international law regarding armed conflict, especially humanitarian law, and is generally illegal. However, the U.S. has never apologized for using the atomic bomb, history's worst weapon, in the 60 years since the war ended.


We *never* would have bombed any European city or country with an atomic weapon.  It just wouldn't happen.  For the most part, those people are our ancestors.  The Asian population in the U.S. was extremely low at that time so it was easy for us to bomb them with a nuclear weapon as we felt no emotional or intellectual connection with them.  


Bush: I believe Bush has: 1)lied about the reasons for going to war with Iraq; 2) promoted the torture of prisoners of war by keeping them off U.S. soil and by establishing secret prisons in Eastern Europe; 3)has allowed and promoted domestic spying without a warrant, which is the legal "check" against government abuse.

I believe there is sufficient evidence for impeachment.  All of this is much more serious than Clinton's stain on a woman's dress.

Barry
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t(h)ik

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Re: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2005, 04:50:39 AM »

Have to go make a pot of coffee and it will take some time to read and absorb.

Let me just say as an intial point that you can find sources that claim the Sun does not heat the Earth.

The war was definitely over slavery and only slavery.  It was an issue that divided the country at it's inception and every single day until we were able to dunk it
States Rights....um yeah...the right to own slaves...


The Japaneese at the time were total cunts and caused the biggest calamity in the history of Asia.

I will give you a more thoughtful answer after the rum and egg nog wears off...

Who cares what someone wrote in a book?

Do you care about books? (I'm talking political/historical here e.g. I think Pat Buchanenenen has written something)

Does what some asshole wrote in book or shouts on the idiot box constitute any type of consensus or give any value to record.

Statements concerning keeping certain scientists that tortured people are bogus...don't know what else to say.

I'll get back to ya.

Merry christmas.

tik



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t(h)ik

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Re: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2005, 07:03:39 AM »

Barry Hufker wrote on Sat, 24 December 2005 06:07




Bush: I believe Bush has: 1)lied about the reasons for going to war with Iraq; 2) promoted the torture of prisoners of war by keeping them off U.S. soil and by establishing secret prisons in Eastern Europe; 3)has allowed and promoted domestic spying without a warrant, which is the legal "check" against government abuse.

I believe there is sufficient evidence for impeachment.  All of this is much more serious than Clinton's stain on a woman's dress.

Barry



You cite this as a belief.  Fine, I guess that's accuate.

Torture?

Where?

I guess sending the soldiers to jail for years and years isn't enough?

Or do you mean secret torture that no one knows about including those who were tortured?

I am not being flip (well, not really flip) I am just wondering if we are dealing with facts or beliefs.

I don't care who wins this argument.  I am just here in the Saloon and will always give you my POV.

What stain on what dress...who cares.  He perjured himself under oath.  This has nothing to do with Gitmo...IMO.


lemme nough

gotta do christmas stuff even though everyone involved is an atheist or thinks they are.

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Barry Hufker

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Re: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2005, 11:24:32 AM »

Tik,

I don't want to "win."  I am just expressing a viewpoint as I know you are.  I know there are no ill feelings on either side.

It is time, as you said, to have a Merry Christmas.  So "Merry Christmas" to you and your family.  And "Merry Christmas" to all who spend their time here.

Barry
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rankus

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Re: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2005, 01:28:18 PM »



On the subject of atomic bombs dropped on Japan...

I watched a documentary a few weeks back that involved interviews and running commentary by the pilot that flew one of the bombers....

He said that he bombed Nagasaki as the "alternative" drop site because of cloud cover obscuring the target city a few miles away (can't recall that city name)...

But, he said that his orders were to attempt to bomb the target city due to the fact that it had been deliberately left un-bombed prior to his drop,.. so that they could estimate the damage from the nuclear bomb without any previous bombings.....

THIS is the biggest war atrocity I have ever heard of!  This means that the US had intended to drop the Atom bomb pretty much from the start of the war... Why else would they deliberately leave two major cities untouched?

Because the whole damned thing was an experiment from day one!! Thats why!

Disgusting!.... Apologize already!

PS:  I agree that our North American ancestors were able to completely de-humanize the "enemy".  I grew up with an uncle who was a submarine captain in that war...  They had a pretty different outlook on what it meant to have different customs and colored skin than we do..... To say the least
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danickstr

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Re: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2005, 02:06:33 PM »

Merry Christmas from Nick the athiest!

Solving the world's issues and conspiracies between sessions and beers.  Love the PSW Saloon!

Bush is not a good president for at least these basic reasons:  He cannot relate to his constituents; He has no ability to relate to any social crises; He is led by a bunch of hard-hearted cronies; He is just not that smart.

The spirit of giving knows no deities or dates!
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Barry Hufker

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Re: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2005, 12:26:37 PM »

Christmas Presents:

Domestic Spying said to be broader than reported

 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051225/ap_on_go_pr_wh/domestic_  spying;_ylt=AvN3M.4K670zGQHNgjvYMNes0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OXIzMD MzBHNl YwM3MDM-

The internet fosters local political movements.

 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051225/ap_on_el_ge/people_drive  n_politics;_ylt=AoxleHnDIB6QkDfUCULVLDWs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OX IzMDMzBHNl YwM3MDM-

One bad, one good.  Batting 500 isn't so bad.

Barry
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zboy2854

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Re: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.
« Reply #41 on: December 25, 2005, 10:56:42 PM »

As a Jew, just wanted to address a couple things here.  I always get a chuckle when someone talks about the overwhelming influence of the Jews, considering that on a planet of 6 billion people there are only about 20 million of us left in existence.  Next to a couple billion Christians and a couple billion Muslims, we're truly an endangered species.

While several hypotheses have been put forth regarding the U.S. support of Israel, no one has really mentioned what IMO is the biggest reason, namely that it is the only true fellow democracy in the middle east, and the U.S. has a policy of supporting democratic nations and regimes, as well it should.

With respect to the Israeli-Palestinian struggle, the problem is that it's a relative handful of assholes who are screwing it up for everybody else.  Most Israelis and Palestinians are good people, with the same goals and dreams of family, security and prosperity.

Unfortunately, you have terrorist organizations like Hizbullah and Hamas whose interest isn't the establishment of a Palestinian state or their welfare, it is the destruction of Israel.  Even if Israel were to withdraw from all disputed territories and cease all reprisal attacks, those groups would still continue their campaigns of violence, because they don't want peace, they want Israel to cease to exist.  And when you consider that many of these attacks are, on a per capita basis, the equivalent of routine 9-11's, it's hard to imagine any nation tolerating that for very long without taking action.

So, much like the insurgents in Iraq who view their fellow Iraqi Muslims as disposable pawns or means to an end, these terrorist groups hurt the very Palestinians they "claim" to be fighting for, by carrying out attacks on Israel and then hiding among them.  Then when Israel tries to take action and hunt down the terrorists, innocent Palestinians get caught in the middle.  

There is no simple viewpoint on all of this, there's no simple solution, and true progress and understanding can only come when Israelis exercise greater restraint, and Palestinians themselves truly implement zero tolerance for the tactics and ideologies of these terrorist organizations.  Both sides need to bring something to the table.

That said, with respect to the original thread thought, I agree that on balance the Bush administration is an exercise in incompetent boobery.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.
« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2005, 11:00:42 PM »

Zach,

Thanks for taking time to share your perspective!

I'd also like to know what you think of Spielberg's "Munich" if you go to see it.

Barry
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danickstr

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Re: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2005, 12:40:16 AM »

to further add to what Zach said, I would agree that the terrorist groups bent on Israel's destruction are going to continue in any circumstance due to their success in the past.  Israelites were driven from the "holy land" ( a crock of shit IMO, but I respect the god-lovers' need to be in that place ) long ago, and the palestinians smugly expect to keep it that way.  They apparently value the destruction of the Israelites ( thats Jews for those of you wondering) more than the lives of their own children.  Gosh I want to worship Allah with a great example such as that.
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Loco

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Re: You-Know-Who is on TV right now.
« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2006, 06:22:33 PM »

sixtiksix wrote on Thu, 22 December 2005 05:11

Hmmm...Barry and Z-man, I must say I disagree 100% with your point of view.


You can disagree al you want and be wrong forever, said a wise poster.

Still, they're just points of view on a very messy political agenda that narrow-minded thinkers will never start to understand, and instead will take strong sides to it. Some call them radicals, fundamentalists, terrorists, overly-religious, republicans, whatever. They are just dangerous morons.
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