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[Tidewater]

Yes 'why did they do it'..

Must be something I did, much like when a man beats his wife.. she must be doing something to piss him off.

Islam would reform, if I had a hand in it. Until then, we'll just keep taking the beatings.

M

[Barry Hufker]

I think the answer as to "why did they do it" comes down to this:
1) The U.S. wanted Russia out of Afganistan so we armed Osama bin Laden.  We also trained them.  The Russians left.  Now, they have weapons and training.  And they have a faith which glorifies martyrdom (as even Christianity does).
2) The U.S. heavily supports Israel.  Why? As Christians we believe the Jews to be "God's chosen people."  And no Christian wants to go against that.  So we arm and support Israel.
3) But we need oil, which Israel doesn't have, so we also want ties with oil countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq.  But we didn't like Hussein (after I believe we put him in power).  So we got rid of him (U.S. blood for oil policy - the Iraq war).
4) The U.S. is against Iran (fundamentalist Muslim regime).  We had  the dictator there as a "friend and ally" until the Muslim government now controlling the country forced him out.
5) Many muslims, such as bin Laden, believe we have sided with Israel against the Palestinians (muslim) instead of being a neutral peace maker (and they're right).
6) As the U.S. now has pissed off the Muslim world regularly, bin Laden decided to make a point that they didn't like it (World Trade Center).
7) The whole world then feels sorry for us.  So we decide to piss them off by invading Afganistan, forcing out the Muslim Taliban.  We do this while looking for bin Laden.  The world isn't pleased but they say "OK."
Not having pissed off the rest of the world enough, we invade Iraq to have control of the oil fields.  How do we get control of the oil fields?  By putting in a "democracy" friendly to the U.S. and U.S. oil companies.
9) Israel is a fair-weather friend.  Their armed forces have (knowingly) attacked us on several occaisions but it doesn't get publicized as they are our friends, who also spy on us.
10) And as the bonus part of the story -- why is the United Nations in the U.S.?  Because we are the world's greatest democracy?  Gee.  No.  It is so we can easily spy on all the rest of the world while being on our own turf.

And that my children is why you must eat your vegetables every day and excercise regularly.  Now turn out the light and go to sleep.  Tomorrow is another day.

Barry

[t(h)ik]

Hmmm...Barry and Z-man, I must say I disagree 100% with your point of view.

That said I would always jump at the chance to tilt one back with you guys...





I can't seem to articulate the total loss I have for the tidal wave of propaganda that is in fashion.
Since you cited Herr goehring...

"Hey man, great job you did on the jews, they were really asking for it.  Everyone who's ever dealt with a jew knows it.  Look Hans the US was wrong coming in here.  Bush's family actually backed hitler so it's really our fault. We sold you all those weapons because the German weapons sucked so bad... I'm so dreadfully sorry about my countrymen kicking your ass in Bastogne.  But we had you outnumbered and there were no crack German units just a bunch of kids and old men.  I hate Bush...we backed hitler, we built Auschwitz, the illuminati is running things...the holocaust never happened or if it did it was 60 thousand tops...."



"Hey Muhammed, sorry about the whole involvement over here in the oil fields.  You must have worked up quite a sweat building all the infrastucture here.  Was it hard to find the oil?  How'd ya do it? It really sucked when the U.S. took the oil fields by force and killed everyone who stood in their way.  I hate it that the U.S. never paid a dime for anything.  Hey look um, why is it that so many Arab nations are friends with the U.S. and aren't planning to bomb Israel.....they must be queer huh?  They must be crazy huh?  Having shopping malls and women driving n' such....I totally agree with you, those jews suck man, they're the reason your so screwed.  They're the reason you flunked at North Western, they fixed the fukken tests!!! them and the U.S.  

Look at Dubai and Qatar and Kuwait, they have no free will...infidels!....we'll fukk them next  Holy War!!!....fukken jews....The U.S. is here for your oil.  Look at how the price of oil went up.  War must be good for Bush to make money with oil....because no one made money in the eighties or nineties when the US had no war...it's the truth, I swear to Allah.  I'm with you man, you and the other .00000001 pecrent of the posse who know the truth and want to strike out.  Iran is soooo right about Israel and the Holocaust, and since Israel is three countries away from Iran the jews are really an immediate threat.  Because Iran cares so much about Palestine, just like Iran cares about the rest of the Arab World when they are not killing them...  Fukken Americans, fukken jews....time to pray, gotta scoot.."



Lemme nough

tik

[maxdimario]

everything is oriented in trying to gain economic control.
Arabs control their citizens using their methods, israel uses their methods, americans use their methods.

every method is different.

the american way was based on personal freedom, being equal in the eyes of god regardless of race, and positive spiritual values... a long time ago.

America is also a big country, and as the civil war and negro-rights movements have shown can be divided geographically, politically.

The American way is ideally the best because it is based on fairness, open competition, and other values which promote balanced economic prosperity along with a spiritual freedom which is not typical in the most oppressed parts of the world.

The problem is, that the economics have consumed and overwhelmed the spirituality of the country to the point that the so-called (spiritual) leaders who talk about ideals and morality are actually just puppets and players who are working solely for the economic powers, which are not tied to the people, but to corporations, banks, and very wealthy racial leaders...who protect their own.

[t(h)ik]

free will brough...it's a case of free will.

The fact that there are millions of Americans who are greedy fukkbaggs does not mean the dream is subverted to their will.

I know I am not subverted and I think there are one or two other citizens of Earth who try not to sell out at the drop of a nickel...

Fortunately it is a world movement.  The U.S. is the unfortunate political entity that cannot go back and has to suffer the arguments of caring but historically challenged dudes and dudettes.

If there was a point to all of this the Senate would not have extended the Patriot Act.  The Congress wouldn't have just approved more war cash....(hint: legally and really super duper truly Congress is funding this war....NOT BUSH)

So while the Euros(Austrians) and russians sell weapons and weapons sytems (Iran, weapons as we type) to a maniacal dictator who openenly supports aggression against Israel I hope they can sleep at night...oh wait...they can...and that's a problem...






lemme nough

tik

[Tidewater]

How very thoughtful.

There are alot of good people in this World, I have to be reminded everyday.


M

[Fibes]

There is nothing wrong with the lightbulb.

[rankus]

maxdimario wrote on Thu, 22 December 2005 03:51

The problem is, that the economics have consumed and overwhelmed the spirituality of the country to the point that the so-called (spiritual) leaders who talk about ideals and morality are actually just puppets and players who are working solely for the economic powers, which are not tied to the people, but to corporations, banks, and very wealthy racial leaders...who protect their own.

Not just the US though.. MANY countries are in this state with many more coming online...

The scariest part of this "economic consumption" to coin Max's term, is that there is no one in control of these corporate entities.  If you think about it, the mega corp. has a CEO at the helm, but he answers to the shareholders. So if the CEO doesn't steer the corporation to greater consumption (profit) he is replaced, and the corporation moves on.  

The shareholders, in the millions, who invest in mutual funds and stocks etc. demand "return"... They are you and me, and we have no say in the day to day actions of the corporation either. In fact we will move our money to get a greater return thus ensuring maximum "economic consumption" by our mindless corporations...

I find this thought the most troubling of all in this world right now. We have completely mindless corporations with no one driving the buss,... these corps are multi national in holdings and answer to no law... They are without borders and answer only to "the bottom line".  They know only "expansion".

There is likely only one outcome, and no way to stop now that the fuse is lit....

As we huddle in our studios playing our fiddles....

I fear this more than any silly little war.

[t(h)ik]

Well, there is no way that I will ever understand how an economy works.

I don't know if you should fear runaway corporations.  It is freedom that allows us to pursue our dreams.  From my perspective I see corporate leaders commiting suicide and going to the slam for years and years when they break the law and get caught.  I see a system where polluters and theives get fined and jailed.  I see a heavily regulated wonderful system of checks and balances.

Talking to quite a few business people here in Europe they are all in touch with U.S. laws forbiding them to trade certain items with certain countries.  Only the "neutral" (read money grubbing cowards) countries do not comply with these guidelines.  I know a German personally who went to jail for selling Saddamn parts for weapons.  So the Europeans enforce the laws when it comes to international corruption.  Domestically I think they are still very much old school, but have no way of actually knowing what the deal is because they are much better and hiding than the hicks back home.

I think the news is mostly good not bad.

Sorry for being optimistic....

The growing population and it's stranglehold on nature and our resources is the challenge.  Not freedom.

But I truly think there are more reasons to be happy about the world than all bummed out.

Just a mere twenty years ago there were millions and millions of people who did not have the freedom and happiness they have now.  If you don't think so....take a drive through Latvia.

Don't think they're happy the way things are?

Try and tell them to go back to the way things were.....


lemme nough broughs...

tik

[danickstr]

I agree that freedom is better than any other thing you could have, like a gilded cage, for lack of a better term.  The crumbling of the Russian Bloc is a good example.

I think Barry's primer of world events is somewhat close to my own, although I think the reason the US supports Israel has more to do with the fact that there are so many influential Jews in the US political and business realms than is has to do with the US feeling they are religiously important.

I am actually glad from my POV that this is the case, since I would never want anyone to have to rely on the US gov's sense of obligation from an ethical point of view.  Jews have been some of the most intelligent and peace-loving people throughout history, and they do a great job of giving their children confidence.  Palistinians on the other hand, tend to live a more aggressive lifestyle with harsher rearing and social disclipine.  

I think the jews have done a good job stepping up to match the aggression level, as they tend to adapt to situations well.  I guess this makes me a jew-o-phile, which I am in some small regard.  I am also an Anglophile, since the English (people not gov) seem to like peaceful conclusions, outside of a pub brawl or two.  Europe in general is more relaxed than US or Arab nations, and this goes back to my theory about promiscuity.  

Since its easier to see tits and buns in Italy or England, etc, than in the US or an Arab nation for a young boy, the euro boy is more sexually relaxed.  Contrast the uptight gun-toting US kids with the wine-drinking cigarette-smoking 9 year olds commenting on the culo of a senorina walking in front of them at the piazzas of Europe and you see part of the US flaw.

How do the Jews get around the porn issue?  You can talk about anything in a Jewish family, so they are diffused by talking themselves into exhaustion.

[t(h)ik]

LMAO...

[maxdimario]

Quote:

The shareholders, in the millions, who invest in mutual funds and stocks etc. demand "return"... They are you and me, and we have no say in the day to day actions of the corporation either. In fact we will move our money to get a greater return thus ensuring maximum "economic consumption" by our mindless corporations...

Yes that's true,

but the governments can choose to promote culture and art, therefore keeping people at home, without needing to work all their lives to buy cars, jewelry, etc.. all the stuff which is 'advertised' on rap videos.

the governments can make it so that people are better instructed and they realize what is happening.

the governments could identify the problems and create guidelines to slow down the process and  balance it.

unfortunately there has to be a strong moral and spiritual motivation to do so, and this does not exist in the political class, in the real sense.

politicians are really subject to the headless monsters, and one gets the feeling that all the people who work in finance and politics are trying to grab what they can before it all explodes.



....there are always artists, to lead the way..

[Barry Hufker]

"there are always artists to lead the way."

That's true when they're allowed to.  Governments don't let that last long when the artists are in the way.

And I agree with Nick -- the economic and social power of Jews in the U.S. is another important reason why we support Israel.  I shouldn't have left that out, but admittedly I didn't think of it.

Barry

[t(h)ik]

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 23 December 2005 17:10

"there are always artists to lead the way." That's true when they're allowed to.  Governments don't let that last long when the artists are in the way. And I agree with Nick -- the economic and social power of Jews in the U.S. is another important reason why we support Israel.  I shouldn't have left that out, but admittedly I didn't think of it. Barry

Sorry, this argument doesn't make much sense to me....

Well, the argument makes sense but the point doesn't.

I've heard this my whole life.  It is accepted as fact.

Rich jews = U.S. support....

Historically challenged observation?

The support for the jews has nothing to do with WWII and the cold war and the difficulties in not having a homeland and then not being wiped off the map by crazed lunatics.  It's not about the down trodden, good v. eve-ill.

It's just because a lot of rich jews live in New York...

Maybe that's why they called it the Manhattan Project...

Quote:

1967: "President Johnson, what's our take on this whole jew-war thing?" "Well boys, those damn jews run everything, we better support 'em before they ruin America."

This goes hand in hand with saying Bush lied and the Ameri-bashing....

It's assertion based on how someone feels about something and discarding recent history and repeating a mantra of revised "facts".

Just trying to be polite by responding...

I am not on a quest or anythin

lemme nough

tik

[John Ivan]

Barry Hufker wrote on Thu, 22 December 2005 01:37

I think the answer as to "why did they do it" comes down to this: 1) The U.S. wanted Russia out of Afganistan so we armed Osama bin Laden.  We also trained them.  The Russians left.  Now, they have weapons and training.  And they have a faith which glorifies martyrdom (as even Christianity does). 2) The U.S. heavily supports Israel.  Why? As Christians we believe the Jews to be "God's chosen people."  And no Christian wants to go against that.  So we arm and support Israel. 3) But we need oil, which Israel doesn't have, so we also want ties with oil countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq.  But we didn't like Hussein (after I believe we put him in power).  So we got rid of him (U.S. blood for oil policy - the Iraq war). 4) The U.S. is against Iran (fundamentalist Muslim regime).  We had  the dictator there as a "friend and ally" until the Muslim government now controlling the country forced him out. 5) Many muslims, such as bin Laden, believe we have sided with Israel against the Palestinians (muslim) instead of being a neutral peace maker (and they're right). 6) As the U.S. now has pissed off the Muslim world regularly, bin Laden decided to make a point that they didn't like it (World Trade Center). 7) The whole world then feels sorry for us.  So we decide to piss them off by invading Afganistan, forcing out the Muslim Taliban.  We do this while looking for bin Laden.  The world isn't pleased but they say "OK." Not having pissed off the rest of the world enough, we invade Iraq to have control of the oil fields.  How do we get control of the oil fields?  By putting in a "democracy" friendly to the U.S. and U.S. oil companies. 9) Israel is a fair-weather friend.  Their armed forces have (knowingly) attacked us on several occaisions but it doesn't get publicized as they are our friends, who also spy on us. 10) And as the bonus part of the story -- why is the United Nations in the U.S.?  Because we are the world's greatest democracy?  Gee.  No.  It is so we can easily spy on all the rest of the world while being on our own turf. And that my children is why you must eat your vegetables every day and excercise regularly.  Now turn out the light and go to sleep.  Tomorrow is another day. Barry

See, It's amazing to me how people in this country wont pay the fuck attention to what is going on.. Barry has this right. If you talk like this around people who voted for this pile of trash in the Gray Hut, {white house, what ever.} They will call you un-American. This is why I do not hesitate to call them stupid.,., Yes, the opposite of smart. What??? HuH?? No, I'm not sorry for saying this at all... Bush supporters have been abusing the shit out of normal average people every day..

If you explain the course of events to these people, it goes something like this. They say.

#1.. You don't love your country. Your on the side of the Tourists-ts-ts--

I say,, " should we not look back at our policy and see why that entire area of the world hates us?"

#2.. No, were Americans. We Love Jesus and stuff so we should just kill them because they ain't not God's PE-PUL. WE ARE!!

It goes like this,, I say,, "Hi, wow, you have red shoes on,cool,," They say,,,"NO I DON'T YOU FUCKER, YOU JUST HATE AMERICA!!!,,,,,, " Well, I'm sorry, I noticed that they are red",,  SEE SEE,, YOU HATE YOUR COUNTRY!@#$%^

That's about how much credit I give people who in any way support this President. George W. Bush should be hauled away in chains TODAY!!! If people are interested in the rule of Law. If people are interested in what is generally excepted as Moral. If we as a nation want to lead the world on any level, He needs to go to Jail. TODAY!!!

Wheels are round. My foot is a foot. My mini Van takes Gas. George W, Bush is a Criminal.

Ivan...............