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[Ryan Leigh Patterson]

I know that everyone has been in this situation more often than we'd like.  I'm talking about trying to coax a decent sound from a crappy drum kit...and a drummer who refuses to believe his kit might be the problem, until it's too late.

I've found that letting the drummer set up his kit and track a few takes usually solves the problem, but occasionally I'll encounter a drummer with god awfull, road beaten, beer stained kit with 10 year old heads, cracked cymbals and a kick pedal that sounds like rusted swingset.  An the drummer will proudly proclaim, "this is my sound!!"  

Now  I understand the importance of musical expresion and individual taste, but I also realize that some musicians haven't had the opportunity to play on decent instruments that have been maintained...

What is the best way to get these drummers to give up their tired old kit, without sounding like a dick and pissing off the drummer (usually the rest of the band is fairly supportive of drum substitution)

[Daniel Farris]

Ryan Leigh Patterson wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 06:01

What is the best way to get these drummers to give up their tired old kit, without sounding like a dick and pissing off the drummer

I think a lot of inexperienced drummers are under the mistaken impression that a good drum sound is entirely in the hands of the engineer and the technology. If you let them know that there's no amount of technological wizardry that can magically transform a shitty sounding drum kit into a good drum sound on tape, they ought to be more cooperative.

If they still resist, start small. Let them do a take with their kit. Then ask them to do another take, only with a different snare. Tell them it's on you if they hate it. Then compare the two takes.

If this doesn't do it, just let them use their shitty kit. Fuck it. It's their record, and this is still a service industry.

I used to worry a lot about what allowing clients to use shitty sounding instruments (and ending up with a shitty sounding record) might do to my reputation. I don't worry so much about that anymore. I figure my job is to record what they put in front of me to the best of my ability. After all, usually I'm not getting paid to produce.

Also, a good third of my business comes from musicians who have recorded at another studio in town and become frustrated with the guy's endless and relentless attempts to: 1.) make them play his instruments, 2.) replace their drums with samples, 3.) make them shorten the second verse, 4.) record vocals one line at a time from the start, etc etc. And he won't back down. He simply won't roll tape until they agree to do it his way.

This guy is the worst example of cookie cutter production I've ever seen. He literally makes every single client sound like the exact same band. He found ONE sound that (almost) works and, rather than go out in search of a new one for each client, he just forces them to conform to that one sound. Invariably, a large number of them end up finishing (or re-recording) their projects with me.

So, I'm all in favor of gently suggesting things to improve a player's sound. But I give up pretty easily when I encounter resistence.

I guess it's the "documentarian" approach versus the "artiste" approach. I very much enjoy being the artiste, but not enough to fight about it, so I usually end up being the documentarian.

Q: What will my drums sound like once they're recorded?
A: If I do a good job, exactly like they do now.

DF

[rnicklaus]

Daniel makes some great points.

To take this to the extreme, can anyone imagine if, when The Police were doing their first album, the engineer and producer pushed an Eagles or Fleetwood Mac drum sound on them?

Ouch!

[rankus]

This is always my first topic of discussion with a potential client:  "your record will sound like the gear that you bring"... "Think of a recording session similar to a photo session... if you wear tattered clothes..etc..)"

I do this, so that when it comes time to mix and they bring in a CD of their favorite million dollar act, and ask to "sound like this", that I have some amunition... I can remind them of "the first conversation we had"...  

[Ryan Massey]

If you are working in digital, you could always just look at the guy with a worried expression and say "I would just hate to have to sound repalce all of the sounds later because they're so bad.  It would be like you weren't even playing on this record..."  
Pretty mean, but I find drummers are usually pretty wary of replacement and the dreaded grid.  Cheers,
Ryan

[Tidewater]

Always! lol

Randy, the Police might still be recording, if not for piccolo, and chorus.


M

[jasonward2000]

If you have the luxury of time, you should play them some of the 1970 concert that makes up the bulk of the recent Led Zeppelin DVD set. It's shocking how much the drums sound exactly like they do on any Zeppelin record, sans room, (alleged) cymbal ods, etc.... It's the drums and the drummer!!!

j. ward
www.jasonward.org

[jimmyjazz]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I think this is exactly the type of scenario that allows an engineer to prove his/her mettle.

Look at it as a challenge.  The drummer's gauntlet has been (unwittingly) thrown.

Every moment of a session is crucial.  One builds on another.  One false step, and voila!  you've taken a step backwards.

Go into every session with a checklist of ideas for fixing potential problems.  It's all about the music, and in a rock/pop context, I can think of nobody I want more comfortable than the drummer.  It may assauge your ego to win the battle and bring in, say, a better kick drum (and in certain circumstances, that may be the proper tack), but it may better serve the interests of the record to know when you've gone past "fish" and proceeded directly into "cut bait".  At that point, you might consider the less hifi technique or two.

[electrical]

Ryan Leigh Patterson wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 01:01

I know that everyone has been in this situation more often than we'd like.  I'm talking about trying to coax a decent sound from a crappy drum kit...and a drummer who refuses to believe his kit might be the problem, until it's too late.

While a thrashed drum kit might be "a problem," it is almost never the problem.

Quote:

I've found that letting the drummer set up his kit and track a few takes usually solves the problem, but occasionally I'll encounter a drummer with god awfull, road beaten, beer stained kit with 10 year old heads, cracked cymbals and a kick pedal that sounds like rusted swingset.  An the drummer will proudly proclaim, "this is my sound!!"

I've encountered this too, and sometimes it is their sound and the sound is awesome. Specifically, I've recorded Andee from A Minor Forest, Michael from Silkworm and what's-his-name from Federation X, and they sounded terriffic, despite their drum kits looking like broken-down pieces of shit.

Do not default to the position that the drums have to be changed just because they look crappy. Let the man play, and listen to see if you've done everything you can to understand the function of these drums in this band. If everyone thinks they sound like shit (including the drummer -- most importantly the drummer) then you can start suggesting things. Usually just changing the heads for new heads makes an enormous difference, and isn't too intrusive.

Quote:

Now  I understand the importance of musical expresion and individual taste, but I also realize that some musicians haven't had the opportunity to play on decent instruments that have been maintained...

This is not necessarily an aspiration of all musicians. I've run across musicians (Terrie from the Ex, for example) whose instruments are like extensions of their bodies, and the scars and changes wrought over time are as important to them as the sound coming out of the speakers. Don't second-guess this sort of attachment. It may mean something you don't understand.

Quote:

What is the best way to get these drummers to give up their tired old kit, without sounding like a dick and pissing off the drummer (usually the rest of the band is fairly supportive of drum substitution)

Give the drummer the option: "Hey, I notice your drums are pretty well-used. I have some drums here you're welcome to try, if you want to." Most drummers are fond of their drums, but most drummers also get a kick out of playing new drum kits. Let the drummer decide.

[Ryan Leigh Patterson]

Thanks for all the great insight.

Looks like the drumer keeps his drums this time.... and I'll be spending a little more time in the mixing department.  I totally agree that the thrashed drums can be a part of the bands sound.....I just hate to see a potentially great record compromised.

[NelsonL]

I seem to remember the drums sounding great on that A Minor Forrest LP with the Kodak slide thing on the cover. Pretty sure Steve did that one.

But it's not just an "indie" thing, can you imagine Levon Helm playing a shiny new DW kit from GC? His drums sound like he's been putting out cigars on the heads for years, and it works beautifully.

[Ryan Leigh Patterson]

rattleyour wrote on Sun, 11 December 2005 14:56

I seem to remember the drums sounding great on that A Minor Forrest LP with the Kodak slide thing on the cover. Pretty sure Steve did that one. But it's not just an "indie" thing, can you imagine Levon Helm playing a shiny new DW kit from GC? His drums sound like he's been putting out cigars on the heads for years, and it works beautifully.

I totally agree...

[jimmyjazz]

I'm certainly no drummer, but I've started to wonder if the nastiness I hear in certain drum tracks isn't anything other than the tendency for modern drummers to beat the living daylights out of their drum kits.  I mean, someone mentioned Levon Helm, and when I think of The Band, the LAST thing I think of is SWAACKKKKKKKKKKKKK.  I think of taste, of tone, of dynamics.  All over.

Just thinkin' out loud . . .

[Ryan Leigh Patterson]

Yeah, thats something else....

I think that everyone thinks they need to smash like Bonzo to get tone, instead all I hear is the Thwack and no tone..
Playing loud is easy, playing loud and sound good is not

[sui-city]

For me drums are one of the first places where I can hear a lack of conviction coming from the musician. That and voice is the other obvious one.

An example of real conviction is, of course, on an Steve Albini recorded album. PJ's "Rid of Me".

Rob Ellis can make a single tom hit sound like a fill on that album. Dead simple stuff, gorgeous space, great arrangements and every hit of the skins sounds like he fucking means it.

And Steve captured it to perfection.

I'll stop gushing like a teenage virgin now (unless PJ commands me to.)

[GoobAudio]

One way would be to have a descent drum kit in the studio set up for the dude to try out. Maybe get him to try it before he carries his kit into your studio and burns a half hour of studio time setting it up.

Never tell the guy his kit sux unless you have a better one to offer him at that moment.

Phil

[kraster]

It's, to paraphrase Mr. Albini, a case of horses for courses. Sometimes the crappy beat-up kit is integral to the sound of the band. I can't see Mo Tucker getting her sound on a modern high-end kit. A lot of the sound on modern records is homogenised because of one person's belief in what sounds "right". There should be a genuine effort to maintain the uniqueness of the band sound even if it contravenes your ideal.

[lucey]

it's only "crappy" if the band says so ... who speaks for their sound?   it's cool to have a vision for them but what's their vision?


as has been said, if the drums are sounding like bar stools and you record them 'right', as in right for the band, it's unique.  unique sounds and strong performances are magic.

[xonlocust]

lately i've been really appreciateing crappy sounding kits.  i've been a drummer for about 20 yrs now and have a sort of nice kit,  and also a sort of crappy kit.  

i was recently at a show of a detroit garage band and at line check it was the worst sounding kit ever. laughably bad on its own.  a group of my friends were talking about how terrible it was, and it truly sounded awful while checking.  in the mix - it was perfect for the band - it stuck out and was the mole on cindy crawford's face.  a month or so later, my favorite part of that band was the terrible sounding kit.

to me, it's just like the decision to use a closed hole front resonant bass drum head, or ported. or hydraulic heads or coated ambassadors.  or a les paul or a strat.  those choices are all valid and should be made.  hopefully the band you're working with is making a conscious choice about using that crappy kit.  if that conversation hasn't taken place, i'd hope it could take place in preproduction, it seems as if tracking isn't the right time to have that conversation.  

when i record bands it's difficult for me during basic tracking to deterimine whether thier kit is good sounding or not, usually when it's all said and done, i like the particulars of that person's kit and their playing - and have to realize it's not MY kit, or ME playing or MY record either.  i've made all of those decisions in my band.  i'm usually pleasantly suprised that the band knew more than me going into it. once we hit vocals there's an "ahhhh, now i see what you were going for" moment.  

also, each of my kits respond completely different from each other, and the kits tell me how to play.  if i've written a song on one kit, and am thrown into another kit all of a sudden the part just doesn't make sense anymore.  maybe that's good or bad.

elaborate "that's my sound, man" answer i guess.

[jetbase]

i haven't come across experienced drummers with a crappy kit, but i have come across a lot of inexperienced ones with crappy kits. once they've set up i usually ask them to play so i can hear how the kit sounds & then move on to tuning the kit, fixing rattles, etc. i approach it like it is naturally part of the process (in other words i take control) but always asking the drummer, & sometimes other members of the band, if they're happy with whatever we're doing. essentially, i'm just talking about fixing the problems on a crappy kit. whatever it's character is, that's what it is & the sound is ulimately determined by the drummer's playing.

with experienced drummers their kit (& sound) is usually sorted out by the time they get to my studio, & i ask permission if i feel i need to do anything to it.

i guess if i was producing i would have more say in what kit was being used (if the resources were there to have a choice) & try to get the best sounding one available, but i really think it comes down to how it's played.

in response to the original post, i think the answer is always psychology. present the idea of swapping kits like it's something they want to do, even their idea.

cheers,
glenn

[Dave Martin]

jimmyjazz wrote on Sun, 11 December 2005 20:12

I'm certainly no drummer, but I've started to wonder if the nastiness I hear in certain drum tracks isn't anything other than the tendency for modern drummers to beat the living daylights out of their drum kits.  I mean, someone mentioned Levon Helm, and when I think of The Band, the LAST thing I think of is SWAACKKKKKKKKKKKKK.  I think of taste, of tone, of dynamics.  All over. Just thinkin' out loud . . .

To support this theory, I had Ed Greene in my room last week (If you don't know Ed's work, do an Allmusic search). Ed hits the drums solidly, but doesn't beat the hell out of them. And it grooved like crazy.

[lucey]

jetbase wrote on Mon, 12 December 2005 21:29

i haven't come across experienced drummers with a crappy kit,

It's great how Jack White wants to keep Meg from getting "better".  Sometimes that's the ticket.  

[peyemp]

the physical condition of the kit is generally not the problem... usually it is a drummer who hits inconsistently,, too loud and too soft on certain hits during transitions, etc..

I'm all about dynamics when they work and are intentional.  but when a drummer tries to 'out play himself', you generally end up with problems.

[Dave Martin]

GoobAudio wrote on Mon, 12 December 2005 09:22

One way would be to have a descent drum kit in the studio set up for the dude to try out. Maybe get him to try it before he carries his kit into your studio and burns a half hour of studio time setting it up. Phil

Does your recording schedule allow for the extra half hour to han hour that would be burned by this? That's assuming that you don't have room to set up both kits simultaneously...

[rankus]

Crappy drumkit = .... hmmmm

It's all fun and games until one of your engineering buddies says "ummm dude about that drum sound"      

[electrical]

rankus wrote on Wed, 14 December 2005 14:14

It's all fun and games until one of your engineering buddies says "ummm dude about that drum sound"

To which I respond, "Who the fuck asked you, crankbite?" or "Would you like some more cocoa?" or something similar.

[rnicklaus]

rankus wrote on Wed, 14 December 2005 11:14

It's all fun and games until one of your engineering buddies says "ummm dude about that drum sound"

Other engineers don't hire you.  

[carlsaff]

I don't track much anymore, but when I was doing a lot of tracking (in the 90s), piccolo snares were far, far too popular.

I'd take a crappy kit with a deep-shell snare any day over a shiny new kit with a piccolo snare. Ugh... I never once enjoyed the experience of trying to make a piccolo sound good. But, I also never talked any drummer out of using one, for all the reasons already mentioned.

OK... that was almost off-topic. Carry on.

[RKrizman]

electrical wrote on Wed, 14 December 2005 14:45

rankus wrote on Wed, 14 December 2005 14:14 It's all fun and games until one of your engineering buddies says "ummm dude about that drum sound" To which I respond, "Who the fuck asked you, crankbite?" or "Would you like some more cocoa?" or something similar.

I swear, "drum sound" is the tail wagging the dog in this industry.  

I've recorded guys playing their trap cases for a basic track, and it's been fine.

-R

[TotalSonic]

If someone brings in a set I deem crappy I immediately stomp around imperiously and force them to play THIS:


or THIS!!


or better yet
THIS!!!!

LONG LIVE THE NORTH DRUM!!-
now....
YOU SHALL BEND TO MY WILL AND SPEND YOUR HOURS ATTEMPTING TO PLAY BILLY COBHAM MAHAVISHNU ORCHESTRA LICKS WHILE WEARING LEOPARD PRINT HEADBANDS!!!

ummm... wait ... where am I .,..
oh ... sorry - I haven't actually tracked a drum kit in years.
I got nice tips for micing a string quartet though

Sorry

&
Nevermind...

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[rankus]

RKrizman wrote on Wed, 14 December 2005 18:54

electrical wrote on Wed, 14 December 2005 14:45 rankus wrote on Wed, 14 December 2005 14:14 It's all fun and games until one of your engineering buddies says "ummm dude about that drum sound" To which I respond, "Who the fuck asked you, crankbite?" or "Would you like some more cocoa?" or something similar. I swear, "drum sound" is the tail wagging the dog in this industry.   I've recorded guys playing their trap cases for a basic track, and it's been fine. -R

Ya,  I think it was Eddie Kramer who said "No one ever walked out of a record store humming a drum sound".... words to live by for sure....  

(He says he will leave the studio if it takes more than 20 mins to mic a kit and get tones)

[TotalSonic]

rankus wrote on Thu, 15 December 2005 19:16

Ya,  I think it was Eddie Kramer who said "No one ever walked out of a record store humming a drum sound".... words to live by for sure....   (He says he will leave the studio if it takes more than 20 mins to mic a kit and get tones)

Which might be the reason why I often am disappointed by the sound he got for Mitch Mitchell on a lot of those Hendrix records.

I agree - a great song is much much more important than drum sound ever will be.  Still it doesn't hurt to have a recording that enhances impact instead of detracting from it.   Anyway - usually great drummers equate to great sounds though a lot more than great kits do.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Fig]

TotalSonic wrote on Thu, 15 December 2005 03:40

If someone brings in a set I deem crappy I immediately stomp around imperiously and force them to play THIS:

Steve,

What the heck are those things?  I haven't seen toms with flared bottoms like that before.

Like Alex Van Halen meets Salvador Dali.  Who makes those??

Fig

[xonlocust]

Fig wrote on Thu, 15 December 2005 15:11

TotalSonic wrote on Thu, 15 December 2005 03:40 If someone brings in a set I deem crappy I immediately stomp around imperiously and force them to play THIS: Steve, What the heck are those things?  I haven't seen toms with flared bottoms like that before. Like Alex Van Halen meets Salvador Dali.  Who makes those?? Fig

North drums i do believe.

[RKrizman]

TotalSonic wrote on Thu, 15 December 2005 14:30

Which might be the reason why I often am disappointed by the sound he got for Mitch Mitchell on a lot of those Hendrix records.

What did you want them to sound like, the Eagles?

On those Hendrix sessions, if he had spent any more time on the drums he would have captured a different moment--and that would have been a tragic shame.

-R

[TotalSonic]

RKrizman wrote on Thu, 15 December 2005 23:24

TotalSonic wrote on Thu, 15 December 2005 14:30 Which might be the reason why I often am disappointed by the sound he got for Mitch Mitchell on a lot of those Hendrix records. What did you want them to sound like, the Eagles?

ugh, ummm errr NO!  Geez - not even the Eagles should ever have to sound like the Eagles.

How about - just more like drums sound in a nice room, with each drum audible and defined

Quote:

On those Hendrix sessions, if he had spent any more time on the drums he would have captured a different moment--and that would have been a tragic shame.

Not so sure this would have been the case.  And to me  it actually is a nice thing we'll never know - those records are what they are and are indeed "classics".  
and Eddie was certainly up against some technical & time limitations that weren't under his control for some of those sessions.  
&
Don't get me wrong -  I truly love all the Experience Records - Electric Ladyland is a desert island record of mine for sure.   But I still don't go to the Experience records for examples of a recording that contains my favorite "drum sounds"
Obviously - OMMV.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[TotalSonic]

xonlocust wrote on Thu, 15 December 2005 21:49

North drums i do believe.

Hee hee - yup - them's the ones.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[bobkatz]

rankus wrote on Thu, 15 December 2005 14:16

of Eddie Kramer... (He says he will leave the studio if it takes more than 20 mins to mic a kit and get tones)

Now that's a smart engineer! I give it an hour, tops  

BK

[jetbase]

i find that most of the time spent on drums is taken up before i put a mic near the kit (unless the drummer has his/her dums sorted out - rattles, tuning, etc). it usually takes me 1/2 hour to an hour from the time i start micing up, depending on what technique i'm using.

g

[craig boychuk]

Axis: Bold As Love has some really good drum sounds, in my opinion.


-craig

[chrisj]

Yeah, seriously. I would go to early Hendrix for certain awesome drum sounds. "Fire". "Hey Joe". The way the snare fill goes into the kick drum over "I gave her the gun- I shot her!" on that last song is one of the wonders of sound for me. Of course I listen to that one off an old steamboat three-color Reprise-label vinyl record, which is kinda good at presenting the things we like about analog... vibe for days, for years...

[sui-city]

rankus wrote on Wed, 14 December 2005 14:14

Ya,  I think it was Eddie Kramer who said "No one ever walked out of a record store humming a drum sound"....

Tell that to Rahzel or Dokaka