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[trebor_zaid]

Hello, I just recently moved into a 20x40ft room with a 15ft ceiling. When recording, I cannot move my board in and out of the room for isolation since the board I am using is a 16ch PM1000. Not exactly portable   !  So, how can I go about recording in 1 room, keep from getting so much bleed from mics, etc. Or, do I defintely need that control room (second room) to get good quality recordings. Thanks for any help you can give me.
r

[Jack Schitt]

Your options seem to be build a wall or buy some headphones

[Tidewater]

Just use phones, and keep the conversation to a minimum.

It's been done, a BUNCH.


M

[danickstr]

Two by fours and bat insulation goboes are easy to build, and if you wrap them in a festive fabric, add a nice visual esthetic.  about 30 bucks each, I would venture to guess.  T-style feet and two stretchers across top and bottom would be all you need for a frame, and you could gusset the feet with scrap.  fill with insulation and wrap it up and staple away.  Nail a piece of trim on the staple line if you want it to look cleaner.

[trebor_zaid]

Lovely, lovely!!! But let's say I want to get guitar and drums down at the same time. How do I keep guitar from entering the room mic that is for the drums? Or how do I keep guitar out of the drum mics or overheads? Should I use the hell out a noisegate or.....? I "could" move the guitar out of the room. That's possible!
thanks for the quick responses   !
r

[danickstr]

You'd need to either: build a big beefy vault for the amp, just go DI, or put it in the parking lot with an SM57.  Any of those could work.  There is a great DI from Tab Funken that is expensive, but this is budget conscious forum, so i guess that is out.  Thread on cheap DI's are abundant, so you can chek those out.

[archtop]

http://www.chromasound.net/

[John Ivan]

Another thing is to use real small amps, the tone will still be big {if it's big to begin with. which is the players deal} and Gobo off the little amp. If it bleeds a little and the performance was good, then,, cool. I've done whole bands with live amps,drums and all in the same room.

There was a studio up north here who had no control room. He did the best work in town. It can be done for sure.

Ivan............

[Dave Martin]

I worked in a one room 'studio' for 10 years. You can get used to wearing headphones for 10 or 12 hours a day if you need to... But the hardest thing to do is learning to judge (on headphones) what the tones will actually sound like through speakers. The second hardest is learning to sit still when the last chord is played so that chair squeaks don't get into the overhead mics....

[Tidewater]

I second all Dave said... and if the chair squeeks, just punch in the chair track..

That was a joke.


M

[Brendan Thompson]

....If you then punched into a track that had chair squeaks, if you wanted to add the squeaks back in you could use a stool sample...


More serious note: http://www.woodstockstudios.com.au/

[Adam Miller]

How about the world's biggest control room? (maybe...)

http://realworldstudios.com/

Being able to communicate with musicians face to face is a luxury most studios don't afford, but it really speeds things along. Not sure there's much you can do about the spill- but you'll have to work harder with mic selection and placement. There's definitely an argument for having more but 'better' spill in a situation like this, rather than failed attempts to isolate everything.

[Fibes]

Good bleed can be better than perfect isolation.

Typically bass smear is the worst thing IMO so if you get the bass close to the drums you actually can get better results.

[Dave Martin]

Adam Miller wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 10:34

There's definitely an argument for having more but 'better' spill in a situation like this, rather than failed attempts to isolate everything.

And there's a great argument that if all the guys can actually PLAY their parts, the bleed doesn't matter. But if the song has to be 'assembled' rather than 'performed', then yep - there's a problem. I HATE it when old mistakes bleed into the overheads - on top of the fixes.

[rnicklaus]

Dave Martin wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 10:10

Adam Miller wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 10:34 There's definitely an argument for having more but 'better' spill in a situation like this, rather than failed attempts to isolate everything. And there's a great argument that if all the guys can actually PLAY their parts, the bleed doesn't matter. But if the song has to be 'assembled' rather than 'performed', then yep - there's a problem. I HATE it when old mistakes bleed into the overheads - on top of the fixes.

You can hear other takes in some Beatles recordings leaking through.

[Dave Martin]

rnicklaus wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 12:46

You can hear other takes in some Beatles recordings leaking through.

Really? Which songs?

But even if the Beatles recordings had scratch or alternate tracks bleeding into the final mixes, that doesn't mean that it's all right for everyone else's recordings, or even that that it's a good thing even on the Beatles records...

[rnicklaus]

Dave Martin wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 12:01

rnicklaus wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 12:46 You can hear other takes in some Beatles recordings leaking through. Really? Which songs? But even if the Beatles recordings had scratch or alternate tracks bleeding into the final mixes, that doesn't mean that it's all right for everyone else's recordings, or even that that it's a good thing even on the Beatles records...

Can't Buy me Love has some wierd faraway solo going on that's very close but a different take indeed - The Phil Spectorized Let It Be and others.

I wasn't trying to say it was right or it made it OK for others to have that, the thread just reminded me of Beatles stuff.

[tarmadilo]

trebor_zaid wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 19:05

Lovely, lovely!!! But let's say I want to get guitar and drums down at the same time. How do I keep guitar from entering the room mic that is for the drums? Or how do I keep guitar out of the drum mics or overheads? Should I use the hell out a noisegate or.....? I "could" move the guitar out of the room. That's possible! thanks for the quick responses   ! r

We've done it two ways:

1. A nice insulated box that fits over the guitar amp w/mic (on a short stand).

2. Guitar amp in a room down the hall.

Cheers, Tim

[Tidewater]

Brendan Thompson wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 00:02

....If you then punched into a track that had chair squeaks, if you wanted to add the squeaks back in you could use a stool sample...

Ok, I just swallered my tongue. lmao..


M

[Daniel Farris]

Dave Martin wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 20:01

rnicklaus wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 12:46 You can hear other takes in some Beatles recordings leaking through. Really? Which songs?

"Yer Blues" has vocal bleed in the instrumental section.

I love that song.

I've been recording in a one room studio (with a small iso room for vocals or an amp) for ten years. It's a different animal, to be sure, but very workable once you have a grasp on what to watch out for.

I rather like the one room thing. Communication is instant and effortless, and that counts for a lot more than you think. No one ever has to look through a window and wonder what the fuck they're saying about him in there.

Also, hearing the drums in the room, and then playing them back on the speakers gives you a lot to live up to. It make me work harder to get good sounds.

DF

[Dave Martin]

[quote title=bacon skin wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 21:22

I rather like the one room thing. Communication is instant and effortless, and that counts for a lot more than you think. No one ever has to look through a window and wonder what the fuck they're saying about him in there.
[/quote]

But many times, they're not talking about 'him' at all, but telling stories and jokes that are unrelated to what's going on in the room. But I digress...

Honestly, I've done it both ways and I much prefer having a control room, a tracking room, and separate iso booths. Ever tried to explain to a singer or producer that the track is gonna suck as long as 'his' drummer is playing? With the drummer sitting right in the room with you? It can be a little uncomfortable...  

[Daniel Farris]

Dave Martin wrote on Sun, 11 December 2005 04:01

Honestly, I've done it both ways and I much prefer having a control room, a tracking room, and separate iso booths.

I like that too. A lot. I was just pointing out that the one room thing isn't as crippling as a lot of people think it is.

Next I want to try the "no room" thing. I'm gonna make a record outdoors as soon as I can figure out where to put the room mics.

Quote:

Ever tried to explain to a singer or producer that the track is gonna suck as long as 'his' drummer is playing?

No. If I'm producing, this isn't a problem because I choose the drummer. If I'm not producing, this isn't a problem because it isn't in my job description.

[brandondrury]

Quote:

Being able to communicate with musicians face to face is a luxury most studios don't afford, but it really speeds things along.

I'm sure it speeds up certain things, but it certainly slows down setup time.  For the first time, I got to work in a room that actually had an isolated control room.  It was so much faster to get drum sounds with another guy helping me because I could hear real time.  If the engineering end is important, I don't think there is any other way to go.

It's funny because I read this post when it was first started and I almost posted that the one room thing is great.

I worked at a band's practice space (not worth the effort of moving my gear) and my room mic on the drums ended up with little more than bass guitar mud, so I can feel your pain.


My crappy little studio has two rooms that are connected by a 7 foot cutout (as if double doors were taken off their hinges) and the isolation is a million times greater than working in the big single room...at least in my limited experience.

Brandon

[Daniel Farris]

brandondrury wrote on Sun, 11 December 2005 11:33

If the engineering end is important, I don't think there is any other way to go.

So I have wrongfully accepted money from a couple hundred bands in exchange for services (i.e. engineering) that I either didn't provide or didn't provide sufficiently?

Or did you mean that you prefer working with isolation?

Let's trade places for a week.

DF

[Dave Martin]

bacon skin wrote on Sun, 11 December 2005 04:26

I was just pointing out that the one room thing isn't as crippling as a lot of people think it is.

True enough. And I was pointing out that it isn't a simple ticket to great productions, either. You know, I suspect that MOST of the readers of this forum do most of their work in a one room environment - bedroom, basement, rehearsal space. That isn't a problem, of course. But if they haven't spent a lot of time working in a more traditional environment, then they might not even think of advantages that might be gained by working in ways other than what they're used to.

Quote:

Ever tried to explain to a singer or producer that the track is gonna suck as long as 'his' drummer is playing?

No. If I'm producing, this isn't a problem because I choose the drummer. If I'm not producing, this isn't a problem because it isn't in my job description.
[/quote]

Good for you! Unfortunately, I don't always have that luxury. Consider the scenario I hit a couple of months ago, where it was a 'band', but only one of the musicians was paying for the project. Another reason is that ths is my room and I feel responsible for what comes out of it, whether or not there's a 'producer'.

[Daniel Farris]

Dave Martin wrote on Sun, 11 December 2005 18:13

Consider the scenario I hit a couple of months ago, where it was a 'band', but only one of the musicians was paying for the project. Another reason is that ths is my room and I feel responsible for what comes out of it, whether or not there's a 'producer'.

I can certainly understand that. For a more detailed version of my opinion on this, check out the "Crappy Drums" thread in Albini's forum.

You want your room to be known for quality work. I appreciate that. But where do you draw that line? Do you mention that this song is maybe not the best way to highlight the singer's talent and suggest they choose another song? Do you tell them that the song will work better if they put the solo *before* the bridge instead of vice versa like they have it now?

I'm sorry. I just don't think that's what they pay us to do. This is a service industry, and I don't want Kinko's rewriting my shit before they stick it on the Xerox machine. I want copies. Period.

I'd say more, but this has officially collided with the "Crappy Drums" thread in Steve's forum, where I've already said the rest of what's on my mind where this topic is concerned.

DF

[Tidewater]

Yes. 5 musicians show up, and all of a sudden you are babysitter, producer, arranger... please don't stand on the furniture, please don't do crack in the bathroom, you guys need to turn off your cell phones, did you bring any spare strings? You need a bottom head on your snare, I know it sounds cool in C#, but everyone else is tuned to A.. is someone supposed to pick you up after the session?

whew..


M

[Ryan Leigh Patterson]

I've been in this situation a few times.  The worst thing is the bass bleed of course.  I usually take care of this by high passing the room mics and over heards.  I actually like the guitar bleed into the room mics and overheads....

Build a couple of amp boxes.... and gobos are also very helpfull.  

Chair sqeaks.... yup, and hard drives...

It's always amazing at how well some of these recordings turn out.

[Dave Martin]

bacon skin wrote on Sun, 11 December 2005 13:35

You want your room to be known for quality work. I appreciate that. But where do you draw that line? Do you mention that this song is maybe not the best way to highlight the singer's talent and suggest they choose another song? Do you tell them that the song will work better if they put the solo *before* the bridge instead of vice versa like they have it now? I'm sorry. I just don't think that's what they pay us to do. This is a service industry, and I don't want Kinko's rewriting my shit before they stick it on the Xerox machine. I want copies. Period.

On one level, you are correct, sir. But on another - especially with low budget/low experience clients, you're being paid to help them make the best recording that they can make. Under the circumstances, of course.

When musicians come in without a producer (or what can be worse, without a 'real' producer), they honestly don't even know what they don't know. When they think that they can, in one day, record a couple or three songs that sound like their favorite record, you'll either have to communicate with them to explain why that ain't gonna happen or let them leave with a crappy sounding demo that you WILL be blamed for. Or you can make them sound like what they think they sound like. But that's usually an unattainable goal.

Your analogy seems to be a little off the mark, in my opinion - when you're engineering, you're not making copies of something that's already done (making copies at Kinkos), you're trying to make real what the musicians only imagine. If it can't be done with the time, money, tools and talent available, you have to tell them.

Or do you?

[Tidewater]

Perfect new band name: PragmatiZm


M

[Fibes]

Keeping an open line of communication and as Dave pointed out teaching bands about the reality of the situation is paramount to keeping good things happening.

We have studio drums, amps and other stuff because sometimes folks can benefit from them. Other times it's not right to get players out of their safety zone because either way they are gonna blame you. Keeping an open and respectful dialogue is the only way to combat this by educating the bands on how to get what they want.

We've all had drummers come in, insist on using a piccolo and wanting a marching snare at mix time. If you keep the communication lines open and keep them on the hook this will happen less.

Whether it's one, two or twenty rooms communication is still the crux of the bisquit.

[rnicklaus]

Fibes wrote on Sun, 11 December 2005 13:16

We've all had drummers come in, insist on using a piccolo and wanting a marching snare at mix time.

Man, I hate when that happens.  

[Spiritwalkerpro]

I love the one room concept.  Been doing it for 16 of the 18 years my studio has been working.  I have one isolation booth for guitar or vocals and it works great.  I use reamping, pods, pedals, whatever it takes to get the job done.  I like a little bleed on the recordings I make, and I love being in the room with the clients.  For me it's more fun.  I've isolated my computers and drives and greased my chairs.

Norm