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[.nathan.kosakowski.]

right, i know about jj's tom mic shootout thingy.  but...

i've ran though a studio the other day that had pretty much the entire kit mic'd close with km84's.  this was rock music i think. thing was they seemed practically aimed straight down at the skin.  prependicular, fairly on the outside, about an inch up.

hi, mid, lo toms, snare, overheads... all km84.  anyway, my available SDCs are a pair of microtech gefell M200's, a pair of the utilitarianly unpricey studio project c4's, neumann kms105, some octava i've had since i was a freshman in highschool.

i tried this technique with the c4's, omni and cardiod (omni was better, not proximity'd to the moon).  just for most part it sucked.  sure, isolated, but lots of boing, not so much kung-pao.

i'm utlimately in search of a clear tom sound, but it always seems to stick out from the mix horribly.  but thats prolly my mixing problem.  but get it right from the source as best you can, right?

i'm all about huge drums, lots of room, etc.  but everytime i get the toms loudenough to suit a tom heavy drum groove, they don't play along.  usually using ev n/d468's, position them anyware, lots of attack, or even sm57s on the racks (they are pretty small toms, 12 & 13 i think)

hmm, i suppose i could live with bigger toms, but thats the studio set and thats what i got.

[J.J. Blair]

Nathan, 12 and 13 are not small for racks.  Is the problem that the drums are not sounding on play back what they sound like in person?  BTW, I don't know the M200s, but the M300s absolutely kill on toms.  Whenever I'm not using a D19, it's probably because I'm using a M300.

And another thing is that perpendicular to the head will give you more 'boing', because you are going to capture some standing waves between the two heads, usually.  Try 45˚ or even as much as 60˚.

[Tidewater]

I like to aim them straight down, you can pick the note. I pick one that works with me, and against the extraneous overtones of the other drums.

Working with an assistant is hard enough, without one is crazy.

That is where, and when my drum sounds have suffered most, blowing my ears out, then trying to discern changes, with moments between the two, and never really finding the best placements, because I can't be two places at once. -and deaf-

It's more than you asked, but I like to type.


M

[Malcolm Boyce]

OK, I'll bite.

First off, do the toms you're dealing with sound good to you to begin with?  If so, great!  Move on to step 2.  If not, that's where you have to start before picking on your mic selection.

Step 2... Try out as many different mics as you can get your hands on, including mics that you know that have recorded some of your fav. sounds.

Step 3...  Use the ones you like best, and remember, just like everything else, position is everything.

My experience with tom mics, is that I was a die hard fan of dynamics for a "huge" rock tom sound.  Then I discovered SM98s.  Totally changed my opinion of the dynamic/condenser comparison.  I have used a great variety of mics on toms with success.  My favourite choice these days are Beta98s, but with great regularity I also will use:  SM57, Beta56, Senn.604, EV408, Beyer Opus87/88

If you were a little more specific about what you don't like about the sounds you're getting, other than that they don't work in the mix, you might get more constructive help.

Good luck,
Malcolm

[Malcolm Boyce]

J.J. Blair wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 16:20

And another thing is that perpendicular to the head will give you more 'boing', because you are going to capture some standing waves between the two heads, usually.  Try 45˚ or even as much as 60˚.

Another thing about the angle toward the center of the head is that the higher frequencies that are most directional in the pattern, are what are generated by the stick impact, which hopefully is more near the center of the head.  I will even look to see where the batter head is worn, assuming they aren't new, and "aim" the mic there.

[.nathan.kosakowski.]

right, reply time...

yes, the drums sound just peachy, wouldn't be asking otherwise...  as far as angle, it's a great tool, i was just more curious if this is some method i've overlooked.  (it was one of those top ten studios i observed it in) so i'll consider this method debunked for myself. (the 90*  angle thing, 'boing' is the right word).  they sounded plastic and flat, i'm going back to dynamic and LDC's.  till i try the geffels that is...

a different question of sorts:

when the toms are just occasional hits and accents i'm ok.  when doing a rock song that requires a big rolling kinda loose sound, with a good deal of stereo seperation, i run into problems.

the toms sound ok when panned reletively shallow, but when trying for the big sweeping rolls, by the time i get them panned out far enough to achive this, they sound way outside the 'drum' field.  they don't integrate well with the kit as a whole.  this seems to happen even when my overheads were spaced on the set and the channels panned hard.  though i usually pan a little less than that...  i've also tried ORTF over the set.  usually using blue dragonfly's with the capsule and electronics from their 'kiwi' mic.

so... and ideas for widening the drum field?  

[Tidewater]

Mics facing directly into the heads don't just add boing. If you adjust how close, and where at, you get a strong note, just like micing cymbals. Stong tones where you want, naturally take the place of tones you don't want.

I like 57s on toms.

Sometimes I don't use individual tracks at mix.


M

[OOF!]

JJ, you've found the m300s don't overload on toms?  interesting choice- i'll have to try it out.
david

[Fibes]

Hell, i get most of my toms from the OHs.

Drums sound like drums when you get further than 2 inches from them. The last two sessions I've been using AKG 418 and 419s. They are so small i can fit them anywhere. The best part is they have decent off axis tone and are very directional.

[J.J. Blair]

OOF! wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 16:20

JJ, you've found the m300s don't overload on toms?  interesting choice- i'll have to try it out.

They shouldn't.  One of them started to, recently, and I sent it in to get fixed.  Needless to say, you'll want a pad before the mic pre.  

[Slider2]

I agree Fibes.
Toms sound SO good through the overs.
Close mics never quite do the same thing.

[brandondrury]

It's a given, but if the drummer doesn't hit his toms properly they will never sound great in the song.  I've noticed that a lot of drummers like to beat the hell out of the toms when you getting your sounds, but in the middle of the song they barely graze the head.  

Obviously, I'm not exactly recording mega pro guys in this situation.

Either way, watch your drummers and make sure they are giving you what they want.

Brandon

[J.J. Blair]

Slider2 wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 20:44

Toms sound SO good through the overs. Close mics never quite do the same thing.

Mine do!

[covert]

Malcolm Boyce wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 16:06

Another thing about the angle toward the center of the head is that the higher frequencies that are most directional in the pattern, are what are generated by the stick impact, which hopefully is more near the center of the head.  I will even look to see where the batter head is worn, assuming they aren't new, and "aim" the mic there.

In my experience, different harmonic content comes from different parts of the drum.  Most drums have a rather nasty high pitched zone near the rim.  As you move away from teh rim, you get deeper stuff.  It's the same as with strings, there are different points along the length that sound higher or deeper.

[lord fear]

have you ever tried micing the bottom of the drum and fliping the phase? I've had great success doing this with either an RE-20 or an SM7