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[josh]

Here's another better example:

Let's say you go to a jewelry store to buy your wife a pair of diamond earrings.  You look at all of them and decide to spend $5,000 on the most perfect, most clear pair of solitaire 1ct earrings in platinum setting that you have ever seen.  Your wife is thrilled with them.  You are proud of yourself for having the means to buy such a luxurious item, and your wife gets constant compliments on these fabulous earrings.

Let's say then that several years go by and you change your homeowner's insurance carrier, and the new carrier wants to appraise the fine jewelry they are insuring.  So you send off these gorgeous diamond earrings and the appraiser informs you that the stones are cubic zirconia.

Suddenly your $5,000 earrings are found to actually only be worth $100.  The earrings you were so pleased with are not changed at all.  However you FEEL very different about them.  Nobody knew the difference.  You know you misrepresented them to all of your friends and the compliments were made under false pretenses.  You feel duped and stupid, and like you are a fraud yourself.  However the quality of the item has not changed a bit, only your own perception of its value.  Most of us cannot objectively evaluate anything.

[acorec]

josh wrote on Wed, 07 December 2005 13:54

Here's another better example: Let's say you go to a jewelry store to buy your wife a pair of diamond earrings.  You look at all of them and decide to spend $5,000 on the most perfect, most clear pair of solitaire 1ct earrings in platinum setting that you have ever seen.  Your wife is thrilled with them.  You are proud of yourself for having the means to buy such a luxurious item, and your wife gets constant compliments on these fabulous earrings. Let's say then that several years go by and you change your homeowner's insurance carrier, and the new carrier wants to appraise the fine jewelry they are insuring.  So you send off these gorgeous diamond earrings and the appraiser informs you that the stones are cubic zirconia. Suddenly your $5,000 earrings are found to actually only be worth $100.  The earrings you were so pleased with are not changed at all.  However you FEEL very different about them.  Nobody knew the difference.  You know you misrepresented them to all of your friends and the compliments were made under false pretenses.  You feel duped and stupid, and like you are a fraud yourself.  However the quality of the item has not changed a bit, only your own perception of its value.  Most of us cannot objectively evaluate anything.

What does tis have to do with the topic?

If you can't tell the difference between a $5000 diamond and a fake, you did not have any buisness buying a diamond in the first place.

[Mark Gensman]

And let us not forget fashion. As we know and are told over and over again, it is not "fashionable" to have cheap gear. Clients will like to see the Neumann in the nice case. They will enjoy knowing you have a Pro Tools HD system. And they will feel much better knowing you have all the really popular equipment, thus your product will be much better because you have all the right names on everything.  

I honestly think that years ago the finished product got lost  in the equation. Now it appears you can't make quality recordings without using expensive equipment. The answer to every question on most of these forums is to spend more money on it.

You are only as good as your recorded product and in the end, that should be the defining goal, not the brand names stuck on the equipment. Alas, it's not to be.  

We have become a society of fashion over function.

[acorec]

Mark Gensman wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 03:17

And let us not forget fashion. As we know and are told over and over again, it is not "fashionable" to have cheap gear. Clients will like to see the Neumann in the nice case. They will enjoy knowing you have a Pro Tools HD system. And they will feel much better knowing you have all the really popular equipment, thus your product will be much better because you have all the right names on everything.   I honestly think that years ago the finished product got lost  in the equation. Now it appears you can't make quality recordings without using expensive equipment. The answer to every question on most of these forums is to spend more money on it. You are only as good as your recorded product and in the end, that should be the defining goal, not the brand names stuck on the equipment. Alas, it's not to be.   We have become a society of fashion over function.

I give up here. This is going nowhere fast. Better you guys should use your "talants" in another hobby. If you can't tell the difference between quality equipment and cheap equipment and understand where you can get away with cheap stuff, and think that decent equipment is just hype and a fashinable statement with no redeeming qualities, you are definately in the wrong place.

There are plenty of hobbies that you can persue. Playing cards could be one as I am pretty sure the quality of the deck is not  that big of an issue.

[Johnny B]

They say "the best things in life are free."

And to be totally honest, that's been my experience for the most part.

Free = the best!

Free sex, free booze, free food....And I'm happy.

Seriously, if we stop and consider that our lives were not earned, that our lives are a gift, we might put this perpetual question into some rational or spiritual perspective.

But people will always be asking the question: "What's best for low cost?"  It's just human nature to keep asking that question. And often, you will find that it does not matter how experienced, how educated, or how intelligent the person asking this form of question is...this is because *every* human being has asked it at one time or another and will continue to ask it in the future. As I said, it's simply human nature.

Since we have all been given the gift of life for free, we might be able to arrive at an appropriate attitude during the holiday season. I know I will try, I may not get there all the time, but I'm gonna at least try.

Best wishes to all.



 

[Mark Gensman]

[/B]quote title=acorec wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 14:16
I give up here. This is going nowhere fast. Better you guys should use your "talants" in another hobby. If you can't tell the difference between quality equipment and cheap equipment and understand where you can get away with cheap stuff, and think that decent equipment is just hype and a fashinable statement with no redeeming qualities, you are definately in the wrong place.

There are plenty of hobbies that you can persue. Playing cards could be one as I am pretty sure the quality of the deck is not  that big of an issue.[/b]
[/quote]

Or I could always ride a Harley.. There's a great example of fashion over function..don't you think?

Nobody said anything about "getting away" with cheap equipment. Your discussion points seemingly ignore the fact that it has been said many times that a good engineer could record a rock and roll band with nothing but SM57 microphones. And do a great job.

I have never suggested high quality expensive equipment isn't worth every penny and much better than cheap equipment.. I personally don't know.

And there is the point. Is a multi thousand dollar mic "better" on a snare drum or guitar amp than the lowly 57?  Is the guy who uses the 57 supposed to give up and go play cards?

Isn't the finished product all that matters? That was my point.

It appears you are saying equipment is a substitute for talent. Either own and use the equipment or go play cards..  

When the price tag and brand name become more important than the finished product, I think something has been lost.

A good card player can win a lot of money using cheap beat up cards.

[Fibes]

Maybe it's the pain killers talking but the best gear IMO is always what I have at my disposal and is the most appropriate for the job. In the end it's much more important to know how than what.

There will always be new cars in the Porsche showoom but the one that gets me to work everyday is the one that is BEST for me.

[Dave Martin]

I take a rather pragmatic approach to all this - the 'best' mic for a given application is the one that's out and on a stand. The second best is one that's in the mic closet. FAR down the list are ones that you don't yet own.

Same with outboard gear - the best mic pre is the one that's  already patched in to the mic that's set up...

[josh]

Agreed.

Like I said before, it's hard enough for me to know which is the best gear for me to use, just from the gear I own!!  Much less imagine how some other gear might be better.

We have 16 identical mic pres and we still go to certain ones for certain tasks simply because the variance between supposedly-identical units is enough to make this one the go-to pre for voice overs, that one the go-to pre for guitar cabs, etc.

In the end, we have to look at session notes to know which mic we used for what.  Once the recording is made, if it doesn't suck, then it's totally irrelevant what equipment was used except for just gaining some insight about how to approach some future recording.  In other words, if you can tell what mic or preamp I used on a recording, it's probably because it sounds bad.

[John Ivan]

Fibes wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 21:58

Maybe it's the pain killers talking but the best gear IMO is always what I have at my disposal and is the most appropriate for the job. In the end it's much more important to know how than what. There will always be new cars in the Porsche showoom but the one that gets me to work everyday is the one that is BEST for me.

This is how I feel about it also. When I needed to put my room together some years back, I picked up what I could afford . I ended up getting great deals on inexpensive stuff that sounded good enough for me at the time.. Hey, I made a bunch of records on this stuff for folks who were really happy about the results. That's what mattered.. They wanted me to engineer the records but I had no gear really, and they just could not pay for a big room and me. I gave it away a couple times to folks I really liked as people AND thought were very gifted..

So yeah, I finally got a cheap rig and am just now, these days, out smarting the design limits of the gear and need/want some better stuff.

First??!!?? I'm going after Mics, and then, a faster computer, and finally,, I'll buy a great tape machine..


Ivan..............

[rankus]

Fibes wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 18:58

Maybe it's the pain killers talking but the best gear IMO is always what I have at my disposal and is the most appropriate for the job. In the end it's much more important to know how than what. .

Thats what I was thinking as well.... The best stuff for the job is what I have....

[acorec]

Dave Martin wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 13:06

I take a rather pragmatic approach to all this - the 'best' mic for a given application is the one that's out and on a stand. The second best is one that's in the mic closet. FAR down the list are ones that you don't yet own. Same with outboard gear - the best mic pre is the one that's  already patched in to the mic that's set up...

And you really want people to record at your facility with a work ethic like this?

No offense, but that is about the most rediculous answer I have ever read.

[acorec]

ivan40 wrote on Mon, 12 December 2005 13:25

Fibes wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 21:58 Maybe it's the pain killers talking but the best gear IMO is always what I have at my disposal and is the most appropriate for the job. In the end it's much more important to know how than what. There will always be new cars in the Porsche showoom but the one that gets me to work everyday is the one that is BEST for me. This is how I feel about it also. When I needed to put my room together some years back, I picked up what I could afford . I ended up getting great deals on inexpensive stuff that sounded good enough for me at the time.. Hey, I made a bunch of records on this stuff for folks who were really happy about the results. That's what mattered.. They wanted me to engineer the records but I had no gear really, and they just could not pay for a big room and me. I gave it away a couple times to folks I really liked as people AND thought were very gifted.. So yeah, I finally got a cheap rig and am just now, these days, out smarting the design limits of the gear and need/want some better stuff. First??!!?? I'm going after Mics, and then, a faster computer, and finally,, I'll buy a great tape machine.. Ivan..............

By your logic above, why would you need/want any other equipment if you feel that you can make great records with anything that you have?

You are like many others with this logic. If you truly believed what you say, you would not contridict yourself a few lines down with what you intend to upgrade. If you can make great records with inexpensive stuff, why bother spending more money?

It is precisely this that I said, and say that people should understand and buy quality equipment (I DON'T mean the most expensive) right up front and not be in a hurry to load a ton of cheap stuff all at once. You buy cheap, you buy twice or more. It is even worse when people have no idea (or very little idea) of why they need a piece of equipment and what makes it useful/good in the first place.

I agree with Harvey that there are good pieces of useable equipment out there, but it is a tradeoff really. Using cost-effective stuff is great when the stuff suits a limited purpose or fills a void occasionally. But, I really don't think it is a good idea for staple stuff you use and rely on all the time. That is when you can get into trouble.

[hargerst]

acorec wrote on Thu, 15 December 2005 08:06

Dave Martin wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 13:06 I take a rather pragmatic approach to all this - the 'best' mic for a given application is the one that's out and on a stand. The second best is one that's in the mic closet. FAR down the list are ones that you don't yet own. Same with outboard gear - the best mic pre is the one that's  already patched in to the mic that's set up... And you really want people to record at your facility with a work ethic like this? No offense, but that is about the most rediculous answer I have ever read.

You obviously haven't heard any of Dave Martin's recordings.  He can get away with making statements like this because he works with most of the top studio musicians in Nashville.  When you work with guys like this, it becomes very clear very quickly that these guys are gonna sound great with any equipment you put in front of them.  These guys couldn't sound bad even if you recorded them with nothing but ADATs and AKG C1000's - in an underground parking garage.

[hargerst]

acorec wrote on Thu, 15 December 2005 08:22

ivan40 wrote on Mon, 12 December 2005 13:25 Fibes wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 21:58 Maybe it's the pain killers talking but the best gear IMO is always what I have at my disposal and is the most appropriate for the job. In the end it's much more important to know how than what. There will always be new cars in the Porsche showoom but the one that gets me to work everyday is the one that is BEST for me. This is how I feel about it also. When I needed to put my room together some years back, I picked up what I could afford . I ended up getting great deals on inexpensive stuff that sounded good enough for me at the time.. Hey, I made a bunch of records on this stuff for folks who were really happy about the results. That's what mattered.. They wanted me to engineer the records but I had no gear really, and they just could not pay for a big room and me. I gave it away a couple times to folks I really liked as people AND thought were very gifted.. So yeah, I finally got a cheap rig and am just now, these days, out smarting the design limits of the gear and need/want some better stuff. First??!!?? I'm going after Mics, and then, a faster computer, and finally,, I'll buy a great tape machine.. Ivan.............. By your logic above, why would you need/want any other equipment if you feel that you can make great records with anything that you have? You are like many others with this logic. If you truly believed what you say, you would not contridict yourself a few lines down with what you intend to upgrade. If you can make great records with inexpensive stuff, why bother spending more money? It is precisely this that I said, and say that people should understand and buy quality equipment (I DON'T mean the most expensive) right up front and not be in a hurry to load a ton of cheap stuff all at once. You buy cheap, you buy twice or more. It is even worse when people have no idea (or very little idea) of why they need a piece of equipment and what makes it useful/good in the first place. I agree with Harvey that there are good pieces of useable equipment out there, but it is a tradeoff really. Using cost-effective stuff is great when the stuff suits a limited purpose or fills a void occasionally. But, I really don't think it is a good idea for staple stuff you use and rely on all the time. That is when you can get into trouble.

Well, I try to practice exactly what I preach.  I have some moderately expensive ribbons and mostly inexpensive Chinese LDC's.  Do I lust after a Neumann U87?  Actually, I don't.  I can always find one of the Chinese mics that will get the job done nicely.

I can always rent a U87 if the need arises, but so far, it hasn't.
Yeah, I'd love to have a locker full of world-class mics, but it would be mainly for my ego, not because I absolutely "needed" them.