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[digiengineer]

Rick and Rail,

I know we're all busy; I've got 3 movies back to back to back, but I think it's worth humoring Mixerman on this...  if not for anything else, we get to hang this over his head for a few years.

Seriously though, I've heard a few orchestral transfers (Silverado being the most recent) from analog to PTHD and haven't heard it, but if it is program dependent, I at least want to hear it (or not hear it) for myself.

My number is in my signature if you two wish to call or you can PM me, but I would like to see both of you at the test so we can finally put this to rest.

Respectfully,
Bryan Jackson

[jimmyjazz]

Mixerman wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 23:02

Rail Jon Rogut wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 19:58 1) I'm only in if you can succefully identify the RADAR and Pro Tools sound files. 2) I'll only do the test in a room/facility I trust. Rail Then you're out. I knew you didn't have the balls.

Let me speak for myself and myself only, although I have heard similar thoughts from several semipro and pro engineers in the past 12 hours:

You are destroying whatever rep you had amongst many of those who are aware of what is going on here.

Ease up, man.

You had the audacity to bitch about "hedging" before the Chicago test even occured, but now you're scheduling another "test" because you don't like the results which are coming to light?

Give me a fucking break.  I wouldn't trust you to run a scientific test if my life depended on it.  You're in WAY too deep to do this thing right.

Good grief.

[jimmyjazz]

The right way to re-do this, if it has to be done, is to ELIMINATE bias by eliminating knowledge amongst the test subjects about what is being tested.  (I'm not trying to discredit you, Bryan.  I'm just trying to help in some miniscule way.)

Clearly, it is not known what is causing this low frequency deviation from flat, if it exists.  Is it PT?  Is it digital?  (Forgive me if I no longer trust anecdotal evidence.)  

Take a bass-rich analog recording.  Mix it to ANALOG tape two ways -- "old school" and via the method mixerman et al claim leads to the problem.  Have all of this done by a credible engineer who has set up credible signal paths.  Disallow him from being in the room when playback occurs.

Until you separate analog from digital you cannot separate digital from PT-digital.  It is wrong to (potentially) screw the test by assuming that a stereo mixdown to Nuendo and burned to WAV files won't skew the results.  Get digital out of the signal path entirely EXCEPT for the one case where PT is being evaluated versus analog playback.  Who cares that the audio cannot be distributed to the world at large?  DO THE TEST RIGHT.  DOUBLE-BLIND, and with no deviation from "old-school" except for the very thing mixerman claims is the problem.  Don't pollute the waters with sample rates, bit depths, beer, crowds, inadequate listening positions, etc.  Just DO IT RIGHT.

I dare you.

[robmix]

I'd love to be there. Is there a time and a place yet ?

[Mixerman]

robmix wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 21:15

I'd love to be there. Is there a time and a place yet ?

You're in. But you have to take my phone call.

Mixerman

[digiengineer]

jimmyjazz wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 21:14

DO THE TEST RIGHT.  DOUBLE-BLIND, and with no deviation from "old-school" except for the very thing mixerman claims is the problem.  Don't pollute the waters with sample rates, bit depths, beer, crowds, inadequate listening positions, etc.  Just DO IT RIGHT.

That's the plan. This won't be distributed or recorded for public consumption, and there will be far less people there. I just want Mixerman to do the test his way so we can witness it for ourselves. They'll be a problem or there won't, he'll be right or full of shit, but at least we can say "we were there".

FWIW, I downloaded the Chicago test and I thought ALL the files were equally lacking low end. YMMV, but I had to check to see if my subs were working.

[Mixerman]

jimmyjazz wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 21:02

Mixerman wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 23:02 Rail Jon Rogut wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 19:58 1) I'm only in if you can succefully identify the RADAR and Pro Tools sound files. 2) I'll only do the test in a room/facility I trust. Rail Then you're out. I knew you didn't have the balls. Let me speak for myself and myself only, although I have heard similar thoughts from several semipro and pro engineers in the past 12 hours: You are destroying whatever rep you had amongst many of those who are aware of what is going on here. Ease up, man. You had the audacity to bitch about "hedging" before the Chicago test even occured, but now you're scheduling another "test" because you don't like the results which are coming to light?

The test was a debacle. Too many people. Too many tests. Too many files to compare. No way of knowing what the holy grail is in the blind comparisons. I'm still going to listen to them, but I have to check them out in a studio, tomorrow.

I'll say it again. I've demonstrated this problem a dozen times, without fail. I am merely asking, that we organize a room full of professionals, and that the two internet posters most critical of my claims come to that test and participate. All I'm getting thus far are ultimatums and muddying of the waters. I'm not going to play that game. All I want to know is who is in, and who is out.

Currently, we have John Van Nest, Robert Hoffman, Randy Nicklaus, David Hecht, Bryan Jackson, and possibly Terry Manning.

If the majority of these professionals do not agree with me. that there is a significatn and obvious lopping of the low end, then I'll come on the interent and post a letter stating that I was wrong. What more could we ask for, right?

I think you're right. I've been slightly over the top. For that I apologize. Rail, whether you participate or not, you have balls.

Anyone else here in LA who wants to participate, sign up here. I'm not going to let this get too big. 10 max. So sign up, and I'll make it happen. Might have to be in January to accomodate that many people, but hell, it's been three years, What's another month or two, right?

Quote:

Give me a fucking break.  I wouldn't trust you to run a scientific test if my life depended on it.  You're in WAY too deep to do this thing right. Good grief.

Would you like to come? This is precisely why I want Rail involved. I'd even be comfortable if he conducted the test.

Mixerman

[robmix]

Mixerman wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 21:17

robmix wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 21:15 I'd love to be there. Is there a time and a place yet ? You're in. But you have to take my phone call. Mixerman

Cool, but I thought you and the guy who called aren't the same person  

Oh, and thank you Rick for sending your representative . .  . . .

[CWHumphrey]

Mixerman wrote on Mon, 21 November 2005 00:03

To all, I want Rail Jon Rogut, Rick Krizman, John Van Nest (The Resonater), Terry Manning (compaspoint), Randy Nicklaus, and Bryan Jackson (Digiengineer), with me, in a room, in LA, in the next three weeks (before December 16), with a 2" machine, a Pro Tools HD rig, and a Radar. Thanks, Mixerman

Oh Mixerman, I'm hurt.  No invite to the party?

But seriously, I've known Dave Hecht for many years, and I'd be interested in his opinion.  If he doesn't want to, then that's cool.


Cheers,

Carter William Humphrey

[jimmyjazz]

Mixerman wrote on Mon, 21 November 2005 00:52

Would you like to come?

I'd consider it.  I'd want to feel confident that the protocol is set up so it wouldn't be a waste of everyone's time.  

I see you think things might move into January, and I have a short film to run sound on between the 5th and the 9th, and soundtrack work to complete after that, but I could probably carve out a one- or two-night trip from Austin to LA if your schedule worked for me.

Nobody knows me or my work, so maybe I'd be a good control.  I'll tell you this -- I don't give a rat's ass about what format "wins".  I just want to know the answer.  I think my ears are up to the task.

[Mixerman]

CWHumphrey wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 21:55

Mixerman wrote on Mon, 21 November 2005 00:03 To all, I want Rail Jon Rogut, Rick Krizman, John Van Nest (The Resonater), Terry Manning (compaspoint), Randy Nicklaus, and Bryan Jackson (Digiengineer), with me, in a room, in LA, in the next three weeks (before December 16), with a 2" machine, a Pro Tools HD rig, and a Radar. Thanks, Mixerman Oh Mixerman, I'm hurt.  No invite to the party? But seriously, I've known Dave Hecht for many years, and I'd be interested in his opinion.  If he doesn't want to, then that's cool. Cheers, Carter William Humphrey

You're invited. Are you in?

jimmyjazz wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 22:03

Mixerman wrote on Mon, 21 November 2005 00:52 Would you like to come? I'd consider it.  I'd want to feel confident that the protocol is set up so it wouldn't be a waste of everyone's time.   I see you think things might move into January, and I have a short film to run sound on between the 5th and the 9th, and soundtrack work to complete after that, but I could probably carve out a one- or two-night trip from Austin to LA if your schedule worked for me. Nobody knows me or my work, so maybe I'd be a good control.  I'll tell you this -- I don't give a rat's ass about what format "wins".  I just want to know the answer.  I think my ears are up to the task.

It looks like I'll be in Austin for part of January so we should hook up while I'm there. If you want to come you can, but I agree wholeheartedly with your suggestions as to coming up with a methodology that isn't fraught with problems.

It's fine with me if we fill this in tonight, because I'm going to be locked up for the next week between work and travel.

Mixerman

[Tidewater]

When is this tour coming to Georgia?

Please take me off the mailing list.



M

[jimmyjazz]

Mixerman wrote on Mon, 21 November 2005 01:28

It looks like I'll be in Austin for part of January so we should hook up while I'm there. If you want to come you can, but I agree wholeheartedly with your suggestions as to coming up with a methodology that isn't fraught with problems. It's fine with me if we fill this in tonight, because I'm going to be locked up for the next week between work and travel. Mixerman

Consider setting your test up here.  It's a little closer for Terry, and maybe a couple of west coast types would want to get an enchilada fix.  Obviously, the studio options are more limited.

That having been said, I'll gladly beg off it things are too crowded, regardless of location.  If I can be of help, that's great, but no doubt there is value in having "names" associated with the results.

[rnicklaus]

digiengineer wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 21:44

jimmyjazz wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 21:14 DO THE TEST RIGHT.  DOUBLE-BLIND, and with no deviation from "old-school" except for the very thing mixerman claims is the problem.  Don't pollute the waters with sample rates, bit depths, beer, crowds, inadequate listening positions, etc.  Just DO IT RIGHT. That's the plan. This won't be distributed or recorded for public consumption, and there will be far less people there. I just want Mixerman to do the test his way so we can witness it for ourselves. They'll be a problem or there won't, he'll be right or full of shit, but at least we can say "we were there". FWIW, I downloaded the Chicago test and I thought ALL the files were equally lacking low end. YMMV, but I had to check to see if my subs were working.

Who's making this plan?

This is like the do-over of the century -

"The test was flawed"

"Mutt Lange would have better music"

"All the files were equally lacking bottom end"

Where were you guys last week in the planning stages?

Reading what some are now posting one must think that -

Albini brought a shit tape and did a shit job with his mix.

The Nuendo system that everybody loved the idea of was shit and even worse than pro tools although it used Lavry converters.

People who were in the room never bothered to listen to the Nuendo files until they unplugged everything from the console and then it was too late to make sure it sounded the same.

Although some people claim they heard a bottom end loss in the room live, there wasn't enough bottom to begin with (or something as odd sounding)

This is just some amazing lame shit here folks.

So now someone is suggesting that people in a room hear this new test and then the aftermath won't be worse if someone doesn't agree with the planned outcome?   With this much happening after this love fest going in?

I call bullshit to the 10th power.  This aftermath has only shown the bullshit level of this problem.  

IMHO.

[CWHumphrey]

Mixerman wrote on Mon, 21 November 2005 06:28

CWHumphrey wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 21:55 Mixerman wrote on Mon, 21 November 2005 00:03 To all, I want Rail Jon Rogut, Rick Krizman, John Van Nest (The Resonater), Terry Manning (compaspoint), Randy Nicklaus, and Bryan Jackson (Digiengineer), with me, in a room, in LA, in the next three weeks (before December 16), with a 2" machine, a Pro Tools HD rig, and a Radar. Thanks, Mixerman Oh Mixerman, I'm hurt.  No invite to the party? But seriously, I've known Dave Hecht for many years, and I'd be interested in his opinion.  If he doesn't want to, then that's cool. Cheers, Carter William Humphrey You're invited. Are you in?

I'm In and I've PM'ed you my info.  


-C