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R/E/P => j.hall => Topic started by: j.hall on March 01, 2011, 11:24:40 am

Title: guitar mics
Post by: j.hall on March 01, 2011, 11:24:40 am
looking for a new flavor for high gain rock tones.  no need for amps, we have plenty, and good cabs.  just looking to improve the mics.

i keep hearing great things about the cascade fathead.

right now i use a 421 and 57 summed to one input.  probably going to keep the 57 and change out the 421.

i'm open to suggestion..
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: kittonian on March 01, 2011, 01:17:05 pm
You can't really go wrong with a Royer 121. It's probably my all time favorite guitar mic. The Coles 4038 is also really amazing.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: saint on March 01, 2011, 01:56:50 pm
I also like, in addition to the Royer and the 421, to use the Shure SM7 (NOT the SM7A or B). Also, if you use a Coles be SURE to NOT get it too close to the Amp. The Royer can take much more level. Haven't used a 57 on gtrs for years... MUCH too painful. Sometime I find the AKG 414 useful on gtrs since they sound like they have a built in compressor. My other go to mike, especially for drop tunings, is the old and venerable dynamic AKG D12 (NOT the D112). Best of Luck, Saint
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: carloff on March 02, 2011, 06:49:42 pm
also beyer M160 and AEA R84 are every nice  for el.guitar.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Prabha on March 03, 2011, 11:51:07 am
The AT4050 can be very nice on guitar amps, it won't be brighter than a 421, and most of the times the sound will be well balanced. Actually in this application it sounds completely different to what you might expect from it compared to what it does on acoustic instruments.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: j.hall on March 03, 2011, 12:02:14 pm
i picked up a fathead for pretty cheap (the stock one, not the lundahl upgrade).  am i doing something wrong with this thing?  the low end is MASSIVE, like unusable massive.  and the top is really dark.  i know it's a ribbon, but come on.......when i sum it with a 57 it's pretty cool, but it just seems out of control.  thoughts.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: j.hall on March 03, 2011, 12:10:14 pm
also, running my amps a touch quieter, just to be safe with this ribbon, the output of the ribbon is super hot.  crazy.  maybe the ribbon is bad already.  it was brand new sealed in the box.....

Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: peteAndrews on March 03, 2011, 12:33:41 pm
i use an R84 and a shinybox 23c regularly on heavy guits.
they both grab a TON of low end. i almost always EQ a lot of it out in mix. for heavy chunka-chunka stuff i capture 2 tracks panned hard with one of these guys and then do a track (or 2) of something up the middle using an e906/e609, a 57, or a 421.

now that i think of it, usually the cab gets 3 mics every time and i just switch between mics while tracking. but yeah... these 2 ribbons always are super beefy in the low end.

pete
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: j.hall on March 03, 2011, 01:04:54 pm
the e609 sounds really honky to me.  i'm running a marshall 4x12 with vintage 30's in it.  pushing it with bogner, fender tonemaster, traynor, mesa, and marshall amps.

we've got a earthworks laying around, maybe i'll try that with the fathead ribbon.

Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Will F on March 04, 2011, 09:08:01 am
Heil mics are very nice on guitar amps. I've got the PR35 and 40.

-Will
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: meverylame on March 05, 2011, 05:52:09 pm
I'm still working out all of my tastes and in all fairness they do fluxuate frequently but after having gone through all the typical permutations of microphone choices I feel I get the best results from a beyer m88 and sennheiser 409. Every here and there a m160 might pop up as another option but that generally been my combo for the last bit. Summed at input.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: colinl on March 06, 2011, 01:06:10 pm
One of my buddies got a recent endorsement by sE Electronics, so we got to try out a bunch of their mics on a recent session.  Most of them (to me) weren't anything super special, but then we put up one of their VR2 ribbons on a guitar cab and it sounded better than anything else we tried all day.  Since then it's been his go-to guitar mic. 

To me, it doesn't sound like a normal ribbon.. it sounded clearly better than the royer 121 when we A-B'd em, running both through neve pre's (I forget which).  Anyway here's the link to their site.. maybe they can send you a demo or something.  http://www.seelectronics.com/vr2.html
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Gio on March 06, 2011, 02:35:54 pm
Lately a 57 paired with a U67 made me smile more than a few times. I've also done 57/Oktava 319, or 57/TLM170 with nice results. Barring that, 57/421 usually works.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Nikodemos_T on March 07, 2011, 06:32:42 am
I really like all the broadcast style dynamics (sm7, re20, pr40, MD441) and also 57 combined with a realy natural sounding LDC like TLM170,TLM 193 or a 414 xls.....it's pretty easy to get both of best worlds with such a combi, from the more edgy and punchy close to the grill sound of the dynamics to the smoother more roomy and fuller sound of the LDC....however i almost never mic them in one track....i prefer to use them as a dual mono pair , probably hard panned and most of the times double tracked (and opossite panned).

TLM 193 is a very underated mic for ampmicing IMO. 
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Podgorny on March 09, 2011, 10:36:32 pm
Shure Unidyne and 421 bussed together.
If you find something better, let me know. I have yet to.

And I go back and forth on the ribbons. They're nice for taming high end, but so are greenbacks.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Bill_Urick on March 10, 2011, 05:45:45 am
Try a KM86 as well.
In combination with a dynamic or ribbon.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Andrew Sweeney on March 10, 2011, 06:10:22 am
The AEA R92 can work well for me on a guitar cab, especially my Boogie MKIII through a XL series Hartke 4X12. It does nice things to the high-end and also has less proximity effect than other ribbons I've tried.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: 0dbfs on March 10, 2011, 11:53:42 am
The R92 is good for getting close without the proximity taking over. With other ribbons, try rotating slightly to reduce some proximity effect.

Cheers,
jb


Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: touchsounds on March 10, 2011, 11:11:55 pm
I've got a Fathead II w the lundahl upgrade.  It's not too dark at all,.

You might wanna spring for having it modded, and maybe have the ribbon checked as well.  It's been a big winner in my studio.  Clients choose it over more expensive ribbons all the time.  I'm not saying it's the same quality as those mics, but it's great for a whole lot of applications.  And so far it's been pretty durable.
I think it's worth the investment.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Jason Thompson on March 12, 2011, 08:50:51 am
Hey J.

I still love that setup too. But the ALL BLACK e609 in place of the 57 sounds great on some amps. As for replacing the 421, a Beta 52 will give a much tighter low-end experience. I wonder if anyone on here has tried a 57/ATM25 combo?
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Tone Laborer on March 12, 2011, 12:14:14 pm
I have a Fathead IIs(stk) and it usually beats out my other choices which include at4050, e906, 57, VinJet w lundahl, Beyer m69. beta 57, and peluso 2247se.  Usually I'm right at the center cone, about 6-12 inches away, rotated 45 degrees off axis.

Sometimes I will run a brighter tone on the amp than I might live. I"m often doing cleaner tones so a little extra beef doesn't hurt.

One weird thing about the FHs--for some reason they are very difficult to phase with other mics. I've tried turning them backwards and positioning them until I'm blue in the face. They just never seem to phase right with the other mic.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: j.hall on March 16, 2011, 06:19:13 pm
i've noticed the phase thing as well.  i've got my 57 working with it nicely though.  it just took a minute to get it in the right spot. 

i'll try turning the FH a touch off-axis to see what that yields, but the more i work with it, the more i'm liking it.

looks like i need to demo some mics.  lots of good ideas here.  thanks guys!  keep it coming.

anybody screw around with the speakers in their cabs?  i'm kinda wondering if the vintage 30's aren't a large part of my problem.  a guitar player friend here told me he prefers celestian 90's as they just let the amp "be the amp".
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: shhpeaceful on March 16, 2011, 06:44:38 pm
am i doing something wrong with this thing?  the low end is MASSIVE, like unusable massive.

I've got one... discovered that immediately. I just back the mic off, but to be fair, I'm not using it for high-gain guitars.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: stevengamel on March 21, 2011, 02:18:02 am
Sm57, SM7, Royers, SM58. That's the limit of my cab recording mic experience I'm afraid.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Podgorny on March 22, 2011, 01:31:21 pm
anybody screw around with the speakers in their cabs?  i'm kinda wondering if the vintage 30's aren't a large part of my problem.  a guitar player friend here told me he prefers celestian 90's as they just let the amp "be the amp".


Horses for courses.

Greenbacks and creambacks can be brilliant.
So can G12t-75s.
And G12h-30s. The Avatar's Hellatones are great.
And Fanes. And JBLs. And those hemp-cone jobbies can be cool too.

But for dude-rock, I'd go for the Vintage 30 first.  What cabinet? That's a whole 'nother subject.  Mesa's oversized cabs consistently suck. No thank you.
And what exactly is it that you don't love about the sounds you're getting?
And most importantly of all, why are you asking US?
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Andrew Sweeney on March 22, 2011, 10:48:33 pm
anybody screw around with the speakers in their cabs?  i'm kinda wondering if the vintage 30's aren't a large part of my problem.  a guitar player friend here told me he prefers celestian 90's as they just let the amp "be the amp".

As a guitar player I have never quite come to terms with speaker break up (e.g. vintage 30's). I tend to like E.V. 12" or Hartke aluminium 12" (which needs the e.q. on my amp to be treated a little differently). Having said that I have heard some great tones pulled with a vintage 30 but it does not seem to work with me and my amp. I suppose it can be a question of matching the amp with the speaker.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: j.hall on March 24, 2011, 10:10:15 pm
As a guitar player I have never quite come to terms with speaker break up (e.g. vintage 30's). I tend to like E.V. 12" or Hartke aluminium 12" (which needs the e.q. on my amp to be treated a little differently). Having said that I have heard some great tones pulled with a vintage 30 but it does not seem to work with me and my amp. I suppose it can be a question of matching the amp with the speaker.

using a marshall (park badged) 4x12.  i'm asking to just get some general ideas. 

i think what i'm after is impossible to describe with words.  Seether's "fallen" and "fake it" have high gain guitar tones that are awesome.

in general i'm feeling like every amp i use has a slightly honky tone.  i'm kinda wondering if it's the cab/speakers.

Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Podgorny on March 25, 2011, 05:22:24 pm
Perhaps it's time for a shootout!

Borrow something with greenbacks, something with G12t-75s, and a different cab with V30s.  I have my suspicions that the (somewhat flimsy) newer Marshall cabs aren't so great with the higher-wattage speakers.  I always liked the V30s in my VHT 4x12.  And the Mills Acoustics cabinets are ridiculously overbuilt and sound great.

Also, I have no idea what was actually used for the seether record. You'd have to ask Marc VanGool, but it sounds like Channel 3 of a VH4 to me.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: studjo on March 26, 2011, 08:23:02 am
no clue about speakers here ... I'm still confused by all the amps and mic choices :(

I really love the Royer 121 on my Fender amps. Another great mic the AEA R84 another flavor of the ribbon thing and when I have to make a distinction in all the different guitar tracks I record I might throw a condenser mic against on of the amps (AT 4050 is pretty sweet for that). I was a die hard Sm57 user but I haven't touched one for guitars for quite some time now ... and I've never been happier with the tones I got ...
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: iCombs on March 27, 2011, 07:03:22 pm
So I'm some kinda lunatic.  I must be.

I went as crazy as 4 mic guitar setups.  U87's.  Rear mics.  Room mics.

I've gone all the way back to a 57.  And nothing else.

And I couldn't be happier.

it HELPS that I've been tracking nothing but money amps lately (Soldano, Cornford, Orange, Marshall, old-ass Fender)...but I've gone all the way back to just not FAFFING ABOUT (new favorite British expression) and sticking a mic on it that I like, and that I know well and know WHAT I CAN DO with the damn thing once I get it recorded.

FWIW...my FAVORITE guitar speaker is still the Celestion Greenback.  It sounds like rock guitar ro me.  The V30 is a close second...it's tighter and brighter and doesn't break up as fast.  I'm lucky enough to have a 4x12 loaded with each at my disposal ATM...and I've found that some of the heads I've got (Soldano, sometimes Cornford) sound best through the Soldano cabinet that's loaded with V30s...and other heads (Marshall, Orange, sometimes Cornford) sound better through the Carvin Legacy cab with Greenbacks (mine's from the first run...before they switched to V30's).

If it was a blind date thing, though...I'd reach for the Greenbacks first a good 80% of the time.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Duke on April 04, 2011, 05:16:08 pm
Heil mics are very nice on guitar amps. I've got the PR35 and 40.

-Will
+1 on the Heil's ,
 partially designed by Joe Walsh, who knows a thing or two about guitar tones.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: curtisfranklin on April 07, 2011, 07:02:41 pm
I can't believe that no one has mentioned the Audix i7 yet. Its basically a 57 w/o the exaggerated presence peak....

Maybe you could call it a "ribbony" SM57.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Grant Craig on April 08, 2011, 07:54:40 am
I can't believe that no one has mentioned the Audix i7 yet. Its basically a 57 w/o the exaggerated presence peak....

Maybe you could call it a "ribbony" SM57.

I don't see much point in a 57 w/o it's top end bump.  I had an I-7 and hated it.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: zakco on April 08, 2011, 06:34:40 pm
Unless I'm going for something really differenent, I keep coming back to a Senn MD409, often with a Gefell UM70 out in the room, added to taste...
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Podgorny on April 08, 2011, 08:09:52 pm
Okay, we get it, you have rare and unusual mics.
Geez.


 :P
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Benjamin Anderson on April 13, 2011, 04:56:12 am
I Recently purchased both a Fathead II and an Apex 215 (Dual Ribbon Mic) for tracking on my band's new record.
Both were cheap.

I tracked a 57 safety on every guitar track, just in case, but the tracks recorded with either of those mics have won out over the 57 in every case.

Both are a worthy purchase.  I haven't had the dough to pick up a Fathead with the transformer upgrade, but I will at some point to see if the difference is substantial enough to have one put in the first one.

There definitely isn't the amount of high end you get from a 57, but the guitars sit in a mix much better.  The Fathead has taken EQ quite nicely when It has been needed.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: MrJoshua on April 13, 2011, 11:32:20 am
The Fathead II is a good mic, especially considering the price.  I picked up a pair of them with the Lundahl transformer upgrade a couple of years ago and have really enjoyed them on guitar cabinets and as drum overheads.  The Royer R-101 (their newer, slightly-cheaper-than-a-121 ribbon mic) is also a very solid choice.  It can capture a nice fat guitar sound - I've been plugging it into a Great River MP-500NV preamp and loving it on guitars.  But it makes a good drum room mic as well.  For that application I've been using it with a Microtech MT-71S in mid/side arrangement.  About three quarters of the time I wind up using this instead of overheads in the final mix, with the mics placed about 12 feet in front of the kit.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: rjc on April 19, 2011, 09:43:41 am
Another plug for the R84 for higher gain recordings. In other (lower gain) situations, I'd also recommend the Neumann BCM705 dynamic mic - silky detailed and nicely balanced.  8)
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Osumosan on May 11, 2011, 12:25:17 am
My two fav's are the B&O M3 and RCA BK5. Very different mics with the RCA having more bite.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: fossiltooth on May 18, 2011, 11:59:32 am
I'm a big fan of the discontinued sleeper EV RE-15. I'll often blend that with a 4047. It's instant good tone, but something different from the norm.

Also: the Coles 4038 is a no-brainer. Just fantastic on everything. If it folds at too low a level for your tastes I recommend the Royer SF-1, which is another under-recognized mic. Kind of like a Coles but with extended (not hyped) top end. The Royer 121 I could live without.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: zakco on May 22, 2011, 10:10:06 pm
Okay, we get it, you have rare and unusual mics.
Geez.


 :P

?????? ?
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Podgorny on May 23, 2011, 12:53:46 am
Just kidding, man.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: zakco on May 23, 2011, 11:23:45 pm
Just kidding, man.

I knew that.

I was just testing you.

 ;D

Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Thomas@Northward on May 29, 2011, 04:28:01 am
Recently had a good experience with a couple of Heil PR40 in front of a Marshall 4x12 cab and an Ampeg SVT15e.

Definitely a mic I will used again for that.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Chris_Meck on March 03, 2012, 12:48:15 pm
late to the party, but:

If you take out the inner screen on the Fathead's grill, it changes the response quite a bit. It balances the response, and while there is still plenty of low end, it's more in accordance with the midrange and smooth high end.

Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Dinogi on January 02, 2013, 08:01:17 am
I decided to reply here instead of starting a new topic, because I thought the suggestions made were interesting enough to continue with.
Of the limited number microphones that I own, and have used at some point for electric guitar, two of them are no longer made. Which of course makes it sort of pointless to suggest them to anyone.
I mention them only to gain some perspective and knowledge on the subject. One of the discontinued mic's happens to be an older German omnidirectional. Sticking it in front of a guitar cabinet yields results that differ greatly from the standard 57's, and other mics I have tried. Less proximity effect, and the ability to mix the drivers by mic placement. I was just wondering if anyone regularly or has used omni mic's in this capacity? The other is a Beyer M500. Beyer has recently introduced a model that looks like an update to the discontinued M500, a mic that has also been used with nice results on electric guitar. I was just wondering if anyone has experience with the new version?
olduncledinogiammattei
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: jaykadis on January 10, 2013, 03:05:41 pm
Finally got a chance to try the Heil PR-35 on a Marshall JMC2000/half stack yesterday and it was "point and shoot." No fooling around necessary - great full-range sound right away.


Of course a great player didn't hurt.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Jim Williams on January 11, 2013, 12:36:39 pm
Having recorded electric guitar amps for the last 43 years, I've found a formula that works well for me.

I stopped shoving mics right up onto the speaker cones about 20 years ago. As a player you figure out that the sound picked up by a very close mic is not what you hear when you play, it's just a partial.

Stick your ear there and if you can take it you only hear that partial off the cone, not at all what the "whole" sound is when you mic it back one or two feet. Then all the cone's partials mix in the air to create what we players call, "our tone".

Even live I would push the 57 back about one foot off the cab.

These days (the last 20+ years) I use a condenser mic for amp recording. One of my fav's is a rebuilt $39 MCA SP-1 fitted with a $99 Chi-com C-12 capsule, when I use that and place it correctly, I never use any EQ.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: jaykadis on January 14, 2013, 11:04:18 am
I did initially try a more distant placement, but the cardioid proximity effect compensation caused too much low-frequency drop off and the sound we wanted came from stuffing the mic right into the cabinet.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Jim Williams on January 16, 2013, 12:49:48 pm
A little EQ fixes that. You can dial up the bass on the amp a bit. Or use a closed back cab. Or use a mic with a decent low end response. Most of the time that proximity effect just muddies up the low end. Most players hate that. I do.

My condensers have much more proximity effect than a SM57. Another reason to back them off a foot or so. 57's are a filter, one I prefer to avoid, it makes amps sound small to me.

They do make a great hammer though.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Marnay on July 08, 2013, 04:57:05 am
Hello,.
I have good result with the Fostex M88RP and M11RP ribbon microphone, I also use very often the Royer 121 and Coles 4038 with a U87 at one meter behind
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Dunkerque on November 13, 2013, 01:03:22 pm
I've been quite happy with AKG C214 w/ D190E or Advanced Audio RE20-clone (http://advancedaudio.ca/products/dm20).
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: oneflightup on October 07, 2015, 07:04:51 am
All good suggestions. To the OP: is your 421 a MkII? Some say the mk1's are better.... They're a pretty awesome mic in my opinion. 57's are great too. How about: RE20 or AKG D19C?

Nick

One Flight Up Recording Studios (http://www.oneflightup.com.au)
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: Jesse Allain on December 19, 2015, 03:26:57 pm
The Shure dynamics always will find favor on guitar amp reproduction. I did a metal band recording recently where I had an SM57 on the front grille of a 4x12 Marshall cab pointed off axis of the center of the speaker. I also had a Rode NT5 39" back from the cab (aimed at the center logo) and on the back of the closed back cab I listened while the guitarist played and found a nice spot where I aimed a polarity reversed AKG D112 to add some low frequencies to the sound.

The D112 printed much lower in output (as to be expected) but added some thump to the overall guitar sound.
Title: Re: guitar mics
Post by: duskb on January 07, 2016, 04:15:34 pm
All good suggestions. To the OP: is your 421 a MkII? Some say the mk1's are better.... They're a pretty awesome mic in my opinion. 57's are great too. How about: RE20 or AKG D19C?

Nick

One Flight Up Recording Studios (http://www.oneflightup.com.au)

I'd agree with this. The 421-II got changed in more ways than one and do not sound the same under a microscope. Sennheiser re-engineered the new mic to a price point and none of the old parts are interchangeable with the new ones. Even the clips are different. Still, on guitar cab by themselves they lack body for me. This is why a 57 does such a good job filling in the remaining 421 hole.

I second the Coles, (I could never get excited about the Royer 121 though alot of guys get great tones with it), but they come at a real price. For cheapo dynamic mics the D19 and the RE20 are available, obtainable, and affordable. I have played with the Cathedral Pipes FET mic and it's a good LDC alternative to the Neumann/AKG line. For the cost no object user though it's a 67 to me (a 47 is even better if you're willing to put it in harms way).

RE: Speakers, I never liked the GT75's. Too brittle and harsh but the Greenbacks I stole from my AC30 reissue work like butter on alot of things.

My $.02.