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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => Acoustics in Motion => Topic started by: Constantin on March 28, 2009, 06:37:35 pm

Title: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on March 28, 2009, 06:37:35 pm
Hello erverybody.  Razz
I´m happy to found this great Forum, since the information about acoustics, i read here, is the best and detailed i found until know.

I hope somebody can help me with my questions about diffusion at the backwall of my new controllroom which i build at the moment.

The rough basic plan looks like this:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8639/miksmietshauslayout1.jpg

Celling high is 3,3m at the front, and about 3,5m at the back.

Today i buyed some wood for a skylinediffusor.
The standard size for the wood is 58mm X 58mm, so the maximum diffusion frequnecy is set to about 2968Hz.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2329/diffusorc.jpg


Is this a good frequency for this room, or is it nessesary to cut the wood in 50mm X 50mm for example to get a higher maximung diffusion freqency??
The lowest frequency is calculated to 570Hz so i can stay in my 30cm maximum depth.

What do you think about this plan?
Which range of diffusion would you prefer?
Maybee better a QRD ?

I hope to find helpfull response in this nice place.
here are some photos from the build today:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6683/bild017.th.jpg

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8647/bild018z.th.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8660/bild019q.th.jpg

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2361/bild021o.th.jpg



cheers
Consatntin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on March 29, 2009, 06:19:16 am
Welcome to R/E/P!

Before you build your skylines, I would recommend you take a second look at a few things:

- Side walls treatment - quid?
- The area where your diffusors are placed also needs specific bass freq management - which is missing.

I.e.: you pbly have some heavy pressure zones right behing your sweet spot. This requires immediate attention before you take care of your diffusors.



Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on March 29, 2009, 08:46:20 am
Hello Thomas and thanks for your reply  Smile


FOr the Sidewalls i plned to have not much porous absorbers, because i`m afraid that the room gets to dead.

In plan is only one 10cm thick porous absorber between the window and the soffitwall, for shure at booth sides of the room  Razz

At the floorlevel i want to build 30cm thick and 1m high boxes, which can be used for perforated absorbers, if nessesary. Tuning this absorbers is planed after roommesurements.

between the window and the door i thougt about using a big polyfusor, but im not shure at the moment, if this is a good idea, so i will read more about this kind of diffusor.

Over my head there will be a big cloud 35cm thick hanging 20cm down from the celling.

Is it realy nessesary to have basstraps also behind the diffusors since i have a huge basstrap all around the celling/wall corners which is 80cm high, and 70cm deep??? (You can see the frames at the photos)
When i need also basstraping behind the diffusors, which kind is the best? A membrane, or helmholz?

thanks for your help.

cheers
constantin  Smile

Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on March 29, 2009, 01:34:19 pm
I wouldn't tell you so if it isn't going to be a problem.

Lots of trapping doesn't make sense if half of it is in the wrong place.

How did you come up with this geometry?
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on March 29, 2009, 01:45:39 pm
Quote:

Lots of trapping doesn't make sense if half of it is in the wrong place.

yes.
All my research until know goes to the same direction: "treat as much corners in the room as you can". This the the goal i want to reach with all the basstraps all around the celling/wall corners, and also the backkwallcornertraps.

Quote:

How did you come up with this geometry?

The angeld walls are like they are , to avoid flutters between the sidewalls,reflecting sound around the sweetspot of the CR, allow a bigger recordingroom, and have good visual contact to the recroom.

I hope this was not the most bad way to go Shocked

cheers
constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on March 29, 2009, 02:19:39 pm
A good advice that was given here a few threads ago by our esteemed Francis and others is that unless you know exactly what you're doing, shaped rooms should be avoided...

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/26474/19234/

Of course, it doesn't mean yours is bad! Not at all!

But the pressure points and energy spread are very hard to calculate. And so many things go into calculating those that it's easy to miss it... And those rooms are very unforgiving.

On the trapping thing, corners are one of the important zones to treat, absolutely. But don't over do it either as other surfaces need to be treated, which are just as important. If you're scared the room will turn too dead there are many ways to incoporate treatment for LF behind a structure that will reflect MF/HF.

My advice really is to work a bit more on your LF treatment scheme since you're not too far in the build sequence. Smile

Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on March 30, 2009, 10:34:53 am
Thanks for reply thomas. Smile

I will reconsider  the basstrapping in the room.

Do your company also offer only making pressure-diagramms of a room.
Something like this calculation for rectengular rooms:

http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/room-eigenmodes.html

When not, is it a possibility to put my spekers inside and just walk around with a measurement mic to find the pressurepoints?


Just for intrest:
I remember a studio with a Glass QRD at the backwall of the Controlroom. i think it was Much Music but i`m not shure Rolling Eyes
Do you think there is also a kind of basstrapping behind the diffusor,because the QRD is also a window, or do you think they put the traps somewere else?


cheers
Constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on March 30, 2009, 01:30:22 pm
We can indeed calculate the geometry for you, based on existing conditions.

On the glass diffusor, if it is used as a window, then the trapping of LF can come from the window letting the LF out... Or they just didn't deem it necessary. So could be either meant to be LF "transparent" or a design choice. All depends on the window thickness too.
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: franman on April 02, 2009, 10:11:37 am
I have to agree with Thomas, that I would be concerned about proper broadband bass trapping (before tuned resonators and before the diffusors). Bandwidth of a diffusor is a big topic in itself. We like to build larger sequence QRD these days with deeper overall dimension to spread the bandwidth in both directions. The overall size you're looking at looks appropriate for the room...

Remember that not treating the side walls "too much" can be bad. Where ever you want to control ER or do trapping, I would recommend as a rule of thumb that you think full bandwidth. The only thing worse than hard early reflections, are bandwidth limited early reflections (just low mids)... Then the comb filtering caused gets even weirder to deal with.

There are plenty of surface you can keep "live" so your room isn't "too dead" (I don't typically worry about this that much and our control rooms may be on the deader side from some others), but floors, rear side walls, front walls, etc can all be hard surfaces (depending on speaker geometry).

This also brings up the whole discussion of the front wall speaker installation. I'm not sure what you're planning for the "Soffit Wall/Bass Trap"... I wouldn't recommend a 'soft wall' for an in-wall speaker installation. Like I said, it's a whole other discussion!!

FM
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 03, 2009, 09:44:48 am
Hi Fran and thanks for your reply Smile

It is hard for me to belive that treating ALL corners in the room, expect the floor-wall corners, with min 66cm deep porous absorbers, is that way too little broadband basstrapping Shocked

But when You and Thomans say this, i have to belive, because you have to know it better.

Don`t you like the idea of a peforated absorber at the floor-wall corners 1m high and 30cm deep, reservating for basstrapping after meassurements?
I can tune this pannel also broadband when needed.

Edit: Uppps ,i saw that i don`t talk about the celling-wall traps  before.. Embarassed but you can see the frames in the pictures Very Happy  

For the firstreflection points:

Did i understad it right that 10cm deep porous pannels are to small for the sidewall firstreflektions?
Is 15 cm enough or is it nessesary to spend more room for thesde pannels?

The Window is placed in an angel so that reflections are reflected aroud the sweetspot.
I used the pincipal of lightbeams for this. incoming angel= reflekting angel.



What do you think about the 35cm cloud?


To the backwall:

maybee i can afford 20cm behind the diffusion for basstraping, for maximum.

But I´m not sure of the overall benefit, because when i bring the diffusors forward the distance between the diffusor and the wall makes the diffusor becomeing a third leaf, what will reuce my lowfreq. isolation to the next room??

PS:

I saw Egan Sound is your projekt..
Nice! i followed the construction thread at john`s site, from beginning and was very impressed by the build.
This was the time i started to get intressted in acoustics.


cheers
Constantin



Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 10, 2009, 05:49:38 am
Hi


in the moment it is not sure if i can finish this projekt, sice i have to stop building because of healthy problems, and don`t have the money to pay a company to do the work.
i will search for solutions the next week, and when there is no way for me, i will stop the projekt. Sad
Sice your replys, i think anyhow it is a not working plan, so i will push the emergency button.
In the moement i`m very frustrated because i spend all my energy and money in this projekt, and can`t finish it because my body say`s NO.
I`m praying for a wonder, and we will see the result next week.
happy eastern to all of you Smile


cheers
constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Steffen on April 10, 2009, 06:06:26 am
I was following this thread with interrest. good luck you man. hope you recover quick!

steff
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: franman on April 10, 2009, 10:51:06 pm
Constantin,

My wishes for a quick recovery... hope you feel better and can keep the important things on track! Feel better.

FM
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on April 28, 2009, 11:57:24 am
Constantin, feeling better?
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 28, 2009, 02:05:45 pm
Thanks for your wishes

The bad news are that i don`t feel better, more wose Sad
I´m waiting for a operation which is set to the 27.05.09
until this date i must lay down.
i can`t sit, can`t stand, can` walk, just rest in bed.
And at the other hand: while i can`t work, i get no money.

i`ts not the best year for me until know
hope things will change soon

cheers
constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on April 28, 2009, 02:52:42 pm
I'm so sorry to hear...

Hope you get better asap!

Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: franman on May 04, 2009, 08:51:22 pm
Jeez Constantin.. please get better quickly...

FM
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on July 12, 2009, 04:23:06 pm
Hi friends  Razz

I continued with my studiobuild and have some new pics of the progress.
After Thomas words of wisdom i worked on the backwall design of my future controlroom.

Here is a pic of the actual plan.

index.php/fa/12845/0/

I also poured the concrete in the samll recording booth and will finisch it with selfleveling concrete next week.

I also build the first 2 doors for the studio. The are made at 3 sheets of MDF. 1st layer 19mm, 2nd layer 23, 3rd layer 10mm.

Door closing is given by a doorcloser and 5 magnets (each 6kg holding power).

Do you have a great tip for a good sealant (rubber) for the doors?


I´m very happy to be able to work without pain  Razz

Smile

cheers
Constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on July 13, 2009, 02:34:11 am
Good to see your health is back!  Smile

What are you going to use as membrane?
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on July 13, 2009, 06:25:36 am
For the 2 boxes at the sides i will use 3mm HDF and for the box in the middle i will use a steel plate (1mm or 2mm) not shure until know.

The Steelplate will not resonate over an air cavity, it will be touching a dampening material like basotec.
The 2 Woodpannels will resonate over an airspring, but i will fill some fluffy isover in the box.

I try to tune the woodpannels to about 70hz, and the steelpannel to 45hz.

Good idea?, or waste of time?  Rolling Eyes

cheers
Constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on July 13, 2009, 06:57:55 am
Steel... Hmmm...

Maybe you want to use a product with a resilience more suited for the use.

Something with good density still. You should not have it as the first layer either.

Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on July 13, 2009, 03:14:45 pm
Quote:

Steel... Hmmm...

Maybe you want to use a product with a resilience more suited for the use.

Something with good density still. You should not have it as the first layer either.

It`s a well tested patent from Frauenhofer institute and called VPR (Verbundplattenresonator)

The trick is to use Basotec as the spring so steel is a perfect Membrane for this purpose.
The spring properties of Basotec are much different than air, so i`m not affraid of using this patent for my room.

And it won`t be the first layer, because my client Sofa is in front of the Resonator  Very Happy ( another big porous (ikea) absorber)



Have you ever heard about these VPR design?

i have good experience with it. no rattle, etc.


cheers
Constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on July 13, 2009, 04:07:32 pm
Yup, not the Frauenhofer thing, but dampened membranes, sure.

Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on July 14, 2009, 02:23:21 pm
here is the resonator i talk about:
http://www.ibp.fhg.de/akustik/ra/vpr/index_e.html


cheers
constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: tom eaton on July 15, 2009, 11:00:41 pm
My RPG Modex plate bass traps are steel.  

http://www.rpginc.com/products/modexplate/index.htm

Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on July 16, 2009, 11:44:17 am
tom eaton wrote on Wed, 15 July 2009 22:00

My RPG Modex plate bass traps are steel.  

http://www.rpginc.com/products/modexplate/index.htm




And they're good.

My point is: in Constantin's case, I would not use steel. Unless he has ALL data to make sure it's the right thickness, right type (many to chose from) etc.

I generally don't use steel for membrane, but that's a personal choice. Steel works.

Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on July 16, 2009, 12:44:02 pm

Hi Thomas and thank`s for your advice

Quote:

I would not use steel. Unless he has ALL data to make sure it's the right thickness, right type (many to chose from) etc.

Isn`t it the mass and the springstiffness which is important for the resonantfreq? It`s quite easy to find out the mass of different steel`s.
Or do you talk about the rigity of the membrane as part of it`s amount of absorbtion?

i would be happy when you point out why you wouldn`t choose steel.
Is HDF a better choice?
i can use also MDF (i can get it for free.

I´m happy for all tips i can get from persons like you, since i trust in your advice.

cheers
Constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on July 16, 2009, 03:23:55 pm
Update:
The Fan`s for the ventilation system arrived.

For the controlroom i have a EBM Papst W2G130-AA33
[url] http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/00e6/090076 6b800e6c45.pdf[(url] which gives about 350m
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on July 17, 2009, 02:58:03 am
Constantin wrote on Thu, 16 July 2009 11:44


Isn`t it the mass and the springstiffness which is important for the resonant freq? It`s quite easy to find out the mass of different steel`s.
Or do you talk about the rigity of the membrane as part of it`s amount of absorbtion?


They are all important
About steel, they can be very different. They can have the same mass but completely different behaviours. For ex High-strength steel will be very very stiff, and yet have the same mass as a rather elastic type of steel. And so on. So mass/thickness while being a good indicator, is indeed not sufficient...

(Yes, my wife works for the steel industry, no foolin' around with those things at home Very Happy )

Constantin wrote on Thu, 16 July 2009 11:44

i would be happy when you point out why you wouldn`t choose steel.



I would use a system using air as a spring, with a material with high resilience but still a "hard" material. For ex some thermosplastics (PMMA) are great for that purpose.

If I told you more I'd have to kill you  Very Happy  

But again, steel as you describe it WILL WORK. Just pointing out a few other options out there, which may be more suitable.

Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on July 17, 2009, 06:01:55 am
Quote:

If I told you more I'd have to kill you  


One day you must do it in reality  Very Happy
I ask to much !  Razz

Thanks for the Tip with the PMMA, i will have a look at these material.

What do you think about the ventilation dimensions? My research told me, that i`m in a safe area, but the examples/guidlines (DIN EN 13779) i found are based on living rooms and restaurants.

cheers
Constantin

Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on August 04, 2009, 03:47:26 pm
Hi friends   Smile

The ventilation system of the controlroom is in, and works pretty good, much better than expected  Smile

There is alot of airflow, but very quiet, also with the fan at full speed.

i used 3 silencers for the exhaust, and 3 for the freah air.
One at the pipe ends in the CR, one at the place where the ducts quit the CR and one where the fans blow out the used air into the hallway.
I also get my freh air from the hallway since it`s well temperated air at winter and sommertime, and less work for my aircondition.



here is a pic from today`s work:

cheers
constantin
index.php/fa/13089/0/
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on August 19, 2009, 05:01:09 pm
Here is a quick update of the front of the controll room

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3117/bild051u.jpg


http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/4926/bild040.jpg



http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/194/bild049nwb.jpg


cheers
constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on August 20, 2009, 06:05:34 am
Great work! See you're doing much better Smile

Is that actual decorative stone on the front wall? (sorry, hard to see with lo-res pics)
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on August 20, 2009, 09:26:27 am
Hi Thomas

Yes i feel much better, and try to work as much in the studio as possible.


It`s not real stone... Laughing
It`s just a vinyl wallpaper, but i thought it looks cool and unique to set the soffitmounted speakers into a "stonewall"  Razz

cheers
constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on August 20, 2009, 11:19:26 am
I've done the stonewall thing a few times, with real or "semi-real" stones. It's nice!
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on August 20, 2009, 04:46:41 pm
Quote:

I've done the stonewall thing a few times, with real or "semi-real" stones. It's nice!

Do you have any nice photos of your work for inspiration?

i alwas look for nice color and material combinations.

Tomorrow i will buy the lamianted floor for the CR. Not shure until know which clor i will choose, but i think it will be a black one with a tile look.

but i will see tomorrow in the shop, what is the best for the overall design.

cheers
constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on August 26, 2009, 09:47:54 am
Hi friends

i worked a litle in the CR abd did some pre meassurements without desk or racks inside the room to find the frequencys for the tuned pannel basstraps at the lower back and the lower side of the room.

i found out, that my RT 60 is to short between 150hz and 1,5khz

under 100Hz i have RT60= 0,25s 150 to 1,5khz i have between 0,18s and 0,12s what is to short for my ears.
above 1,5khz i have constant 0,2s waht is ok.


Do you know a material to cover my corner basstraps at the celling which allows waves uner 150hz to pass, and reflect above these frequency?

i play with the idea to cover the basstraps with 9,5mm drywall, since it`s cheap a nd easy to install. I´M not shure if it`s to much mass for this purpose!?!?!?!?!?!?!


here are some graphs from the empty room meassurments an the basstraps i want to cover:

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1192/fgohneconsole.jpg

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/994/wassefallohneconsole.jpg


http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/4599/xbild067.jpg

index.php/fa/13211/0/

any comments about my ideas and results?

cheers
constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on August 29, 2009, 03:29:43 am
I was gone for while... will have a look Smile
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on January 08, 2010, 07:50:38 pm
Hi friends
I have a small update for the control room.
At the backside i coverd all the not RFZ important parts of the basstrap with some left over wood to keep some life in the room.
in the middle of the back at the floor i placed some seald boxed for helmholz-resonators which i will tune after some measurments. in the midle of the lower backside i will place a plywood pannel absorber tundes to a room mode.
In the front you can see the first sketch of my desk, and some trim at the wall.
At the side walls you can see the frames for some more tuned absorbers.

Today i worked the celling of the CR and placed the clouds with build in lights.



http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6721/bild020.jpg


http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/223/bild023e.jpg


http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8875/bild021v.jpg


http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9742/bild022t.jpg













cheers constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on February 02, 2010, 11:47:54 pm
Hi friends.
today i did some measurments in the CR with a empty desk and some limp mass membrane absorbers build with bitumen sheets between 100mm isover TP1.
They work great. no tuning nedded. I just put them in the place of low velocity and they start to vibrate, and help alot with modal ringing.

But i still have 1 problem, wich need help from the pro-designers.

In the picture below you can see the the frequency plot of my listeningposition.
You will realize the heavy dip at 140hz which is the floor reflection. speaker hight is 1,3m distance to ear is 1,85m. difference between direct path and reflected path is 1,2m which gives me the 180
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on February 06, 2010, 02:40:42 pm
Today i worked a little on the desk in the CR.
I made a beautiful armrest with nice black lether.
the CR is waiting for final fabric covering and gear into the racks  Smile
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/2364/studiotischohneequipmen.jpg


But please Thomans, Franman, remember my questions in the last post about the floor-reflection.
cheers
constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: franman on February 11, 2010, 10:24:15 pm
The floor reflection issue is tough. We struggle with it all the time. Does your furniture 'block' this reflection? Are you sure it's not something off the ceiling? Just thinking out loud here..

FM
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on February 12, 2010, 06:42:00 am
Thanks fran for answering.

I am sure this is not a celligreflection since the celling hight is about 3,5m and i have a 20cm thick cloud, filled with 5kPa insulation, with 20 airgap at celling reflection points.

When i place some insulation on the floor the dip decrease, but i can not place a 20cm absorber on the floor, for optical reasons, and i need some hard floor, when i climb behind the desk, to change the patches.

But i think i can build a kind of stage with perforated top, which allows basswaves go trough, but is rigid enough to hold my wight. Then i cover it with carpet, and nobody knows that there is an absorber under it!?


Or do you think the situation will change when the racks are filled. This may can be good for blocking the reflection!?


cheers
Constantin


http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/1407/bild034q.jpg


http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/6776/bild033ls.jpg


http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/8043/bild032y.jpg
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on February 17, 2010, 01:33:48 pm
Constantin wrote on Tue, 02 February 2010 22:47


In the picture below you can see the the frequency plot of my listeningposition.
You will realize the heavy dip at 140hz which is the floor reflection. speaker hight is 1,3m distance to ear is 1,85m. difference between direct path and reflected path is 1,2m which gives me the 180
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 01, 2010, 08:01:55 pm
I am not dead!!!!
Things are moving slowly, but they are moving.
It ist hard to build a Studio alone without any help, and go to the regular job beside this build.
It is a one man Studiobuild.

Still not finished, but ready to hear a littlebit music while working.


Here are some bad cellphone pics:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6595/bild060.jpg

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/3131/bild061v.jpg


cheers
Mika
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: franman on April 01, 2010, 11:27:40 pm
Mika,

Welcome back.. I bet your floor reflection is gone with all that 'desk' in place now... is it not??

of course.. there's always the new set of shorter reflections off the desk, right....


FM
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on April 02, 2010, 12:52:16 pm
franman wrote on Thu, 01 April 2010 22:27

of course.. there's always the new set of shorter reflections off the desk, right....


"Didn't we talk about not using a Boss Flanger on the guitars?"  Very Happy

Keep the good work Mika! Soon there!
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 04, 2010, 09:18:08 am
Yes Fran.
The dip is gone.
i moved the istening position a bit to the back, turned the speaker, so now the woffer is up and the tweeter down, what gives me better conditions in case of desk refections. And the tweeter is now more at ear higth. The acoustic center of the speaker is now exactly at earhight.

I still have some problems with modal ringing under 200hz down to subbass.
I added 6x Helmholtzresos (10dm
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: franman on April 06, 2010, 10:09:39 pm
We always use lots of internal damping in Helmholtz resonators... The Q is too sharp without this. I don't think you can have too many of this type of trap. They should not re-introduce any tone into the room. They should only smooth low frequency decay (ringing) and bring the perceived bass out into the room. You are operating in the upper range of where I would typically use this type of trap but it's ok... Membrane traps are fine as well, but you need a significant amount of surface area to get enough sabines into the room IMO..
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 08, 2010, 03:26:26 pm
Thanks for this info Fran.
Yes i think i will bring in some more Helmholtz Absorbers.
When i want to calculate the sabines for a helmholtz absorber, is this just the port Area of the resonator what matters? Or resonatorport plus mouthcorection?

Is it more efficent to have many small resonators, or some bigger ones.
i think more smaller ones, because the port area is bigger.



I am still struggeling with the 100hz celling to floor mode.
i think i have to angel my cloud and ad a rigid back!?
But i will wait until my subwoofer arrives. i hope that the woffer fills this dip a little.

I will keep you updated
great forum Smile
cheers
Mika
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 10, 2010, 03:37:17 pm
Hey freinds  Smile
some pics from todays work on the backwall of the CR.
Sorry for the bad cellphone pics  Rolling Eyes

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/706/bild006h.jpg

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8996/bild007ot.jpg

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5078/bild008l.jpg


cheers
Mika
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on April 12, 2010, 10:18:12 am
Well done  Smile
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 12, 2010, 02:18:40 pm
Thank you Thomas  Smile

Can you say something to the idea to break up the cellig/floor mode with angel the cloud and add a rigid back?

The cloud is about 2m wide and 1,7m long 30cm thick, filled with 5kPa Isover TP1.
I could angel the cloud about 15
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on April 12, 2010, 03:29:33 pm
The problems will be:

- Is there a sufficient area to play with
- Is there enough thickness / density in your 'rigid back' and what's the realtive distance to the real ceiling
- Is it the right treatment
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 12, 2010, 03:49:39 pm
The cloud is about 2m X 1,7m but shaped.
I have some leftover 10mm MDF which i could place at the back of the cloud.
The distance now is about 30cm top of cloud to cellig (no angel)
when i angel the cloud the frontside could come down to 50cm distance between rigid back and celling.
the null is around 105hz

useful plan , or waste of time?

cheers
mika
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 15, 2010, 12:18:57 pm
Yeahhhhhh  Very Happy
Subwoofer and EQ arrived today.
A Yamaha SW 10
So i placed the sub very rough, and played with some EQ to reduce some peaks caused by flushmounting the speakers.

New Freqeuncy plot looks realy good to me.
There is 1/24 smoothing,so this is the truth  Razz

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3234/mitsub.jpg


What do you think?
continue to optimize, or accept it like it is?

cheers
Mika Smile
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on April 16, 2010, 06:29:37 am
Looks really good indeed.

Much  better than a lot of bigger studios out there!

Good job!  Smile
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 16, 2010, 10:21:40 am
Quote:

Looks really good indeed.


Smile Thank you


Quote:

Much better than a lot of bigger studios out there!


Realy?  Shocked  
I never visit a "real" Studio.
It would be intressting to do this one time to hear another place, than my builded places.

What about your Project in D
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: franman on April 17, 2010, 05:08:33 pm
Mika,

That looks slammin indeed!! How does it sound?? Depending on the speakers, the HF rolloff is a subjective thing based on taste, but the midrange and LF are better than many if not most that I measure....

FM
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 18, 2010, 06:16:56 am
Hey Fran
Thanks for your comment.
I would be intrested of a meassurement of a professional build room about 25m
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on April 18, 2010, 10:01:15 am
Constantin wrote on Sun, 18 April 2010 05:16

Hey Fran
Thanks for your comment.
I would be intrested of a meassurement of a professional buld room about 25m
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 19, 2010, 05:16:13 pm
Thanks Thomas

It is not nessesary to link a measurement to a specific studio.
i am just intressted about a typical curve of frequency and reverbation in the lows, of some professional designrd and build studios.

i never learned acoustic, i just read books, and in the internet. so i have only my experience, and nothing to compare my results.

I don`t know where i am in the moment, so other measurments are a good guideline for finding out .
cheers
mika
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: AndreasN on April 21, 2010, 06:24:28 am
Hi folks!

Would love to see some graphs as well. Especially time response graphs.

Mika, do you think you could post an energy time curve showing the first 200ms or so of your room?

Here's mine a few weeks ago: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/481 797-lede-room-haas-trigger.html
Specular Haas trigger to be replaced with more suitable diffusers, more reflections to be had overall, and so on. A work in progress. It will at least give the general idea of where it's heading.


Cheers,

Andreas Nordenstam
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 21, 2010, 07:01:06 am
Hi Andreas
I can only offer an old ETC since REQ don`t work anymore on my Laptop, for some unknown reasons (maybe a JAVA update??)  
ARTA don`t offer ETC in Free Version so here is the old measurement.
The 5 ms peak is a old desk reflection which is not present anymore, and this measurment miss the perforated MDF housing of the rear Basstrap soffit, so only the the 3 little QRD`S give the impulse at 16,5 ms
IDT Gap is now 16,5ms without that deskreflection, or better said with less deskreflektion.

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/2272/etcold.png

cheers
Mika
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on April 22, 2010, 09:31:51 am
Here's one. This was measured with a high sound pressure in the room.

I will not post ETCs because they are giving away too much info about how our rooms work.

This graph is pretty representative of what a bigger room with a big console (3.60/1.20m in size) can respond like.

The console usually messes things up pretty badly in the MF / HF, so we tend to preemptively compensate for it... *When possible*.

The consoles with the 'back' going all the way down to the floor (like some NEVE for ex) are also giving us quite a few headaches in the LF.

Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 22, 2010, 11:48:41 am
wow, that looks realy flat  Shocked
How big was that room? over 30m
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Greg Reierson on April 22, 2010, 12:37:45 pm
Thomas Jouanjean wrote on Thu, 22 April 2010 08:31

Here's one. This was measured with a high sound pressure in the room.


Any EQ in the chain?


GR
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on April 22, 2010, 01:16:42 pm
Constantin wrote on Thu, 22 April 2010 10:48

wow, that looks realy flat  Shocked
How big was that room? over 30m
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on April 22, 2010, 01:22:06 pm
Greg Reierson wrote on Thu, 22 April 2010 11:37

Thomas Jouanjean wrote on Thu, 22 April 2010 08:31

Here's one. This was measured with a high sound pressure in the room.


Any EQ in the chain?


GR


These are tri-amped speakers and we played with the level of each amp (LF, MF, HF) to have an overall balanced response. It was a bit 'curved' in the MF IIRC, so we added a bit of that. How much I don't remember.
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 22, 2010, 01:42:35 pm
Quote:

This room is on the big side. About 42m
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on April 23, 2010, 06:35:30 am
Constantin wrote on Thu, 22 April 2010 12:42


Another question:
do you see any big problems with the peak in my ETC at 5 ms?
i reduced it about 5 db, but it is still there.

cheers
Mika


I think at this point in your project you should just listen. Numbers are important and you do well in keeping an eye on them and using them to get your room to the next level.

But now it's time to let your ears be the final judge.

Forget the ETC for now and sit down a bit, have a coffee and enjoy your nice work Smile

Do you like what you hear? Do you have a nice depth, stereo image, no particular sign of freq problems?

From what you say, I would say that all this seems fine and the numbers you show are very good.

So... Do some projects now! See how your mixes translate! If you feel something is wrong after a while, then go back to your drawing desk.

It's your own place. Take it easy Cool


Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on April 23, 2010, 09:41:24 am
Thanks for reply Thomas  Razz

I would enjoy to listen my new room, but in the moment i am in Hospital, so i have only the numbers to play with.
I just try to use the time here as much as possible, since my working time is very limited because of my helathproblems since 2008 Sad

Only good thing, is, that i have much time to read and learn.

cheers
Mika
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on May 19, 2010, 07:03:28 am
Sorry for no updates, but i spent all my time in hospitals, so i can`t work in the studio.

But i have some questions about the aircondition i plan to install.

I need to place the compressorunit of the doublesplit system on the roof over my recordingroom.
It is not allowed to install it at the outside wall.
So i need a good decoupling from the roof.
What is the typical naturalfrequency of a decoupled compressorunit?

i don`t know if i can easy go the agglomer way, since i have alot of this material in my storage, and i have no money to buy some additional sylomer.
My idea is to place some concrete blocks over Agglomer on the roof, and mount the compressor unit on top of this foundation.

The question is:
how much lowfreqeuncy isolation of this unit is needed?
Any experience with this?

cheers
constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on June 02, 2010, 05:37:52 pm
There are no big news until now, but here are some before/after shots of the small recording room/vocal booth.
Not finished jet, but short before ready for use

View 1
in 3 building steps:
1.
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/171/bild000o.jpg


2.

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/3448/bild011k.jpg


3a

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3817/bild015m.jpg


3b

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4406/bild017f.jpg

View 2
1.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9805/bild005e.jpg


2.

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/4039/bild012t.jpg


3.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2394/bild014t.jpg

and the view into the control room:


http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9213/bild010x.jpg

i hope to be able to continue the work in 2 weeks, when i leave the hospital

cheers
constantin




Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on June 05, 2010, 03:52:40 pm
Some better pics of the Control Room, where you can see the right colours and feel the vibe of the room.

I will make some mire pics, when i cleand the room, and install equipment.
cheers

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/6136/regiefrontohneblitz.jpg

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/5162/regieseiteohneblitz.jpg
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on August 14, 2010, 07:25:21 pm
Still not finished, but ready to soldering and wirering

The controlroom:
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1774/img9414c.jpg

view into vocal booth:




back of controlroom


http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/6683/img9417u.jpg

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7417/img9418j.jpg

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/6528/img9421r.jpg

view from vocal booth into controlroom:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8673/img9422o.jpg

inside the vocalbooth with view to emergency exit

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4331/img9424n.jpg


i hope you can enjoy the flavour of the studio

cheers
Constantin  Smile
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on September 07, 2010, 02:22:22 pm
and here are some pics from the small recordingroom/Vocalbooth:

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/710/img9496.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/9766/img9497.jpg

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/2545/img9498k.jpg

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6788/img9499.jpg

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/659/img9500x.jpg

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/4245/img9501.jpg

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2882/img9502.jpg


The is still one cloud with LED spots inside missing, which will take place at the celling, over the guitar from the door to the Patchbay. This is the reason, why there is no trim at the corners  Razz

First session is booked for friday
cheers
Constantin
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on September 07, 2010, 06:49:05 pm
Constantin wrote on Tue, 07 September 2010 13:22



First session is booked for friday
cheers

Constantin


Sweet!!!

Hope it goes great!

Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on November 18, 2010, 11:27:50 am
OK, it`s finaly done!!!!!!!!


http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/4866/panorama2zd.jpg

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7474/arbeiten2.jpg

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/1920/hinten1.jpg

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9987/hinten2.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4284/hinten3.jpg

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/695/singing1.jpg

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2741/singing3.jpg

cheers
Mika
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on November 18, 2010, 02:43:37 pm
...edit
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: AndreasN on November 18, 2010, 05:09:18 pm
OMG she's beautiful!

Oops..

The room is beautiful!

Cool


Seriously, both are. It looks very good. Was expecting another set of build pictures and got a pleasant surprise. Congrats! Smile
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Thomas Jouanjean on November 19, 2010, 06:43:51 am
Nice!!!

And very beautiful singer indeed.

Glad to see it all turned out great Smile you did an amazing job!
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: J.F.Oros on November 19, 2010, 09:11:13 am
My hat off to you Constantin for this impressive work, done almost only by yourself and against all of your health problems. It should be an example for everyone wanting to follow their dream, regardless of the various obstacles life brings in the way.
(and it took you only 5 pages to do it ! Laughing)

I sincerely hope that your health is better and will allow you to enjoy working in this beautiful place you have now. Take care !

PS : I have one question, though, who is Mika ? Is it just a nickname of you, or its another person using the same account here ?
Title: Re: Diffusor dimensions for backwall of my new controlroom
Post by: Constantin on November 19, 2010, 09:59:06 am
Thank you all for your kind words.
Yes Mika is my Nickname, and most of the people don`t know, that this is not my real name  Very Happy

Health....... better don`t talk ot think about it  Sad

cheers
Mika