Post by: bblackwood on January 04, 2005, 12:11:34 PM
links removed
[Warning - do not read further until you have listened - no reason to have someone else influnce your listening...]
Discuss...
Post by: bblackwood on January 04, 2005, 12:12:42 PM
Also, feel free to post your thoughts about what you are hearing...
Post by: ATOR on January 04, 2005, 03:11:47 PM
Tango
wider, more open more fizzle in the top. Doesn't have the limiter action like the others. This must be the clipped one.
Sierra
this was my reference file so not as wide and open as Tango but not as flat as Uniform. Best of the limiters. After listening some more this could become my favorite. From this file I prefer the quiet part over T and U.
Uniform.
This one is way too heavy limited for me, the whole mix clamps down, the snare almost disappears. Almost sounds as if it's played on the radio.
The pro of clipping is that the body of the mix doesn't change if a peak is 'limited'. You can clearly hear the effect of the limiters on the body of the mix with the other two masters. Maybe I'll do some experiments with clipping myself to see how it works out.
Post by: Lee Flier on January 04, 2005, 04:02:26 PM
Post by: bobkatz on January 04, 2005, 06:09:59 PM
In contrast, Father, please forgive me, my ears took a shock listening to this test stuff. The compression/limiting is obviously part of the sound, the up front, edgy stuff. Well, anyway, after a period of ear-adjustment, I preferred Tango over Uniform because Tango sounds "wider". Sierra is far behind, very distorted and ugly. Ironically, I dropped Tango by 0.2 dB but it still wins.
Let the games begin.
Post by: ammitsboel on January 04, 2005, 07:17:04 PM
Sounds a little "closed in" and distorted in the chorus.
Sounds processed(A little artificial maybe).
Tango:
Sounds a little "closed in" like Sierra but more distorted in the chorus.
Uniform:
More open sounding than the others.
The clipping is quite audible in the chorus.
The compromise for me lies in either sacrificing the open sound or get some clipping in the chorus.
...what i would use in a session depends entirely of what would suit the whole song and not just this clip.
-So no favorite from me!
Post by: J Schroder on January 04, 2005, 08:10:14 PM
John
Post by: mastermind on January 04, 2005, 08:45:30 PM
The actual cut for the CD was probably about 1.5db lower than these in level.
It's interesting to see the different comments on this...
t
Post by: turtletone on January 05, 2005, 09:34:26 AM
Tango is clipped
Uniform is the MD4
not sure about S and T.
Tango wins here for me.
Post by: ammitsboel on January 05, 2005, 10:53:26 AM
Are you listening with your ear plugs again?
Post by: turtletone on January 05, 2005, 10:58:15 AM
I thought everything sounded a little dull. Ahhh, that's better. I can hear myself think now.
Post by: ammitsboel on January 05, 2005, 11:06:02 AM
You aren't releasing masters judged on only your ear plugs, are you?? he he...
Post by: zetterstroem on January 05, 2005, 11:24:06 AM
tango: thin and digital but sounds more dynamic
uniform : thin and digital and a bit distorted... still... more attack in the drums
my guess is:
sierra = tc with too long release for my taste
tango = clipped (needs tape and tubes)
uniform = L2 because of similar tonal balance to tango
i like tango best... although i miss some of the warmth of sierra... but i would NOT like a limiter to add warmth... that's what tubes and tape are for....
in general use i think the (software) L2 doesn't alter the tonal balance too much.... but it can distort (i mostly use 3mS release and NEVER arc)
by the way... when i tested the m6000 the shortest release time of the limiter was 15mS.... has that improved??? i rejected the units because of that!
Post by: turtletone on January 05, 2005, 11:43:24 AM
| ammitsboel wrote on Wed, 05 January 2005 11:06 |
Mike... You aren't releasing masters judged on only your ear plugs, are you?? he he... |
Not anymore. Now what I do is strip naked and crank up the volume. If the hairs on my body tingle, I know I have enough high end. If i'm doing low end heavy stuff, I require a girl to sit in with me to make sure the kick is hitting in the chest. For the most part, this technique works really well. It only gets ugly if the band wants to attend the session. Then I have to stock up on plastic covers for the chairs.
Post by: mastermind on January 05, 2005, 11:47:47 AM
| TurtleTone wrote on Wed, 05 January 2005 09:58 |
doh! I thought everything sounded a little dull. Ahhh, that's better. I can hear myself think now. |
Really? Hmmm... time to put toilet paper over the tweeters on the Dunlavy's ....
t
Post by: zetterstroem on January 05, 2005, 11:54:17 AM
i'm used to the 2077 and it makes everything colder when i put it on....
Post by: mastermind on January 05, 2005, 11:59:27 AM
| ZETTERSTROEM wrote on Wed, 05 January 2005 10:54 |
and trevor..... did you use the avalon on this song??? i'm used to the 2077 and it makes everything colder when i put it on.... |
Yup... sure did.
t
Post by: lucey on January 05, 2005, 01:08:22 PM
the other 2 ... again, listening on mini speakers:
sierra - smeary and nasty
uniform - punchy and smacked, clearer
Post by: jimmyjazz on January 05, 2005, 05:40:09 PM
1. Tango
2. Uniform
3. Sierra
Sierra seemed too brittle on the top end, and it didn't have much in the way of balls in the low end, either. Tango had the best vibe without sacrificing detail. Is Uniform the one with clipping? It was OK, but didn't seem quite as immediate as Tango.
Post by: craig boychuk on January 06, 2005, 11:39:21 AM
I would guess that Tango is the clipped one.
Uniform had too much pumping & breathing for my liking.
I like the transients on Tango, but they maybe get a bit crispy at the very end of the clip. Still, it sounds more dynamic to me than the other two.
It's tough for me to tell which limiter is which. I'll bet with a different release setting, I would like uniform a lot more than I do.
-craig
Post by: Ed Littman on January 06, 2005, 08:30:20 PM
The others...no comment.
It sounded like the release was on about 100 on the L2.
Am I close?
Ed
Post by: dcollins on January 07, 2005, 12:34:27 AM
DC
Post by: Level on January 07, 2005, 12:45:42 AM
Post by: ammitsboel on January 07, 2005, 09:25:35 AM
| dcollins wrote on Fri, 07 January 2005 05:34 |
Can we start adding "None of the Above" to these tests? |
This is the reason i didn't wote... couldn't find the "none of the above" button.
Post by: mastermind on January 07, 2005, 11:11:02 AM
| ammitsboel wrote on Fri, 07 January 2005 08:25 | ||
This is the reason i didn't wote... couldn't find the "none of the above" button. |
Charming comments to be sure.... to be honest I could care less if you like any of the clips or not, but it would be nice if you could add something constructive to the conversation.
Keep in mind none of these were the version used for the CD (I can post a link to that clip if you'd like) - and the "limiting" is being pushed a bit. I think the point of the exercise is to see how different approaches to achieving gain produce different results and artifacts... as far as I'm concerned there have been some excellent observations made so far.
t
Post by: zetterstroem on January 07, 2005, 11:28:03 AM
yes please....
and no their comments aren't construcitive... i agree...
SKAM DIG HENRIK....
Post by: ammitsboel on January 07, 2005, 12:32:14 PM
| mastermind wrote on Fri, 07 January 2005 16:11 | ||||
Charming comments to be sure.... to be honest I could care less if you like any of the clips or not, but it would be nice if you could add something constructive to the conversation. Keep in mind none of these were the version used for the CD (I can post a link to that clip if you'd like) - and the "limiting" is being pushed a bit. I think the point of the exercise is to see how different approaches to achieving gain produce different results and artifacts... as far as I'm concerned there have been some excellent observations made so far. |
Ups, I can see why you answered the way you did.
but my comment was purely based on not knowing witch one to choose believe it or not.
If you read my first post in this thread it says that i wouldn't select any of them based on only this clip, I will have to hear the whole song and maybe ask the band before i would chose any of them.
I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression.
Best Regards
Post by: mastermind on January 07, 2005, 05:02:00 PM
| ZETTERSTROEM wrote on Fri, 07 January 2005 10:28 |
yes please.... |
here ya go.... this is the clip, extracted from the final cd...
cd version
t
Post by: bblackwood on January 10, 2005, 05:15:11 PM
sierra = L2 (release set to ARC)
tango = clipping
uniform = MD4 (profile was "loud", softclip was off)
Interesting how the voting ended:
1. sierra 4 / 27%
2. tango 9 / 60%
3. uniform 2 / 13%
Once again, pure clipping was preferred by most, this time in a landslide. Again, Bob preferred the clipped version overall (as did I), and Michael nailed them out of the gate, much to Henrik's dismay (hehe, I kid).
Once again, we're seeing that for different stuff, different approaches work better than others...
Thoughts?
Post by: bobkatz on January 10, 2005, 07:19:42 PM
| bblackwood wrote on Mon, 10 January 2005 17:15 |
Once again, we're seeing that for different stuff, different approaches work better than others... Thoughts? |
Yeah, says Bob, going home with tail between his legs. I think what I learned is that tradeoff of artifacts is the key. You're trading off "pure distortion" (perhaps inaudible if short duration) of the clipping versus the artifacts of attack/release time of any limiter.
However, if you look at the spread spectrum of the artifacts, we have another story. I would advocate doing EITHER the limiting or the clipping at 96 ks/s, for one thing. And the other is to look at the bit rate of various codecs attempting to work on the clipped file. I wager the spread spectrum of the limited file will be much less than the clipped file. The guys at the satellite radio companies are tearing their hair out over losing valuable bit space for their codecs when they try to broadcast clipped files.
Today, for example, I did no more than 0.2 to 0.5 dB of Weiss peak limiting in the Weiss DS1-Mk2. it's so small and so "transparent" it would be hard to decide which sounds "better", that or clipping, especially at 96ks/s. Important for us to realize that clipping at 96K may sound much better than at 44.1 for several reasons (less intermod/aliasing distortion).
Anyway, what I learned is I have to do a lot more investigation, yet not dismiss (slight) clipping out of hand. The reason is that limiting artifacts and release times introduce their own artifacts!
Post by: ammitsboel on January 10, 2005, 07:42:31 PM
| bblackwood wrote on Mon, 10 January 2005 22:15 |
Once again, pure clipping was preferred by most, this time in a landslide. Again, Bob preferred the clipped version overall (as did I), and Michael nailed them out of the gate, much to Henrik's dismay (hehe, I kid). Once again, we're seeing that for different stuff, different approaches work better than others... |
Well, Michael!! please let us in on what earplugs you are using?
...it's funny(or rather odd) that the MD4 sounds more distorted than the clipping though!
And is the MD4 always brightening things?
Best Regards
Post by: Level on January 10, 2005, 08:00:07 PM
| Quote: |
Important for us to realize that clipping at 96K may sound much better than at 44.1 for several reasons (less intermod/aliasing distortion). |
....Plus the fact that amplitude with some conversions can actually rise to a point where it is ugly at 16/44.1
Do a 0.2dB impluse peak at 24/96k, convert, see if it is 0.2dB at 16/44.1K
Sample accurate my pink and rosy smelling foot.(!)
Acid test, again.
Post by: turtletone on January 10, 2005, 10:41:45 PM
I still like the weiss as a limiter. It takes 3 times as long to setup, but I think it retains more detail and punch. and with the correct setup, stunn levels are not only achievable but better sounding than the L2 or MD4.
Post by: ammitsboel on January 11, 2005, 07:06:22 AM
Post by: bobkatz on January 11, 2005, 03:41:51 PM
| TurtleTone wrote on Mon, 10 January 2005 22:41 |
I only use organic free range earplugs. I still like the weiss as a limiter. It takes 3 times as long to setup, but I think it retains more detail and punch. and with the correct setup, stunn levels are not only achievable but better sounding than the L2 or MD4. |
I never tried it for that, but it makes sense that you could do it, if you have the patience to do the setup. The Weiss's sonics are very good. Use it possibly as a tetch of "compressor/limiter" combination, also. That is, instead of total limiting at 1000:1 ratio, reduce that slightly and optimize the attack/release for some kind of a "sound.
The only problem (if you consider it a problem) is that the Weiss is NOT a brickwall device. So if you want to stay competitive and not have any overs at the same time, you'll need to follow it with a tetch of a brickwall.
Then again, if you don't mind clipping
BK
Post by: ammitsboel on January 11, 2005, 07:46:08 PM
| bobkatz wrote on Tue, 11 January 2005 20:41 |
Then again, if you don't mind clipping |
Wow Bob, you have really learned something from these tests
Post by: zetterstroem on January 11, 2005, 08:28:09 PM
i would think that the clipped version should be the one closest to the original in terms of tonal balance...
and in my ears the sierra (L2) i far away balance-wise..
not this is why i am confused.... iuse the L2 every day as a plug in protools HD.... and tried the hardware version as well.... it NEVER changes the percieved tonal balance as much as sierra vs. tango .....
i'm very confused.... is it the ARC? (never use it....awful) i believe that the ARC is responsible for what i interpreted as "pumping"....
stangely sierra exactly matches all the reasons we had for NOT buying the TC!!
is there any hope of one of you linking to the file with no limiter?
please...
pretty please... respect
Post by: turtletone on January 11, 2005, 10:04:01 PM
Post by: zetterstroem on January 12, 2005, 01:51:16 PM
Post by: Lee Flier on January 13, 2005, 12:58:29 AM
| bblackwood wrote on Mon, 10 January 2005 22:15 |
Once again, pure clipping was preferred by most, this time in a landslide. Again, Bob preferred the clipped version overall (as did I), and Michael nailed them out of the gate, much to Henrik's dismay (hehe, I kid). |
Wild. I thought Tango was the worst sounding one of the lot. I was pretty open to the idea that I might prefer the clipping, but I guess I don't.
Very educational!