R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!  (Read 13593 times)

bushwick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 624
1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« on: April 03, 2005, 03:48:59 am »

I am mixing a record for some folks, sort of Elliot Smith, sort of Tom Waits, sort of Kurt Weil, and very organic. I talked em into tape for the mix and was able to find a bunch of 456 for sale here in NYC. I must admit that I have been a GP9 guy and sometimes a 499 guy and almost always a 30ips guy. I wanted to try 15 ips and told the label and client why and they asked for a comparison. I thought it was a cool idea so first we printed to PT back through AD8000, then to ATR at 30ips, then to ATR at 15ips. (I should mention that we run 15ips with IEC1 equalization.)

The 30ips sounded smoother, more relaxed, perhaps not as silky as gp9, but had good body and the music was glued up as expected. Compared to PT everyone agreed that it was nicer to listen to and sounded more "finished". Very true.

15ips? All I can say was the split second I heard 15 I was sold. Can't remember the last time I went 15 and then never to 456, but my god it is so good. If you are like me and have been a GP9/499 user give 456 a whirl when its available again and mix one to 15ips - IEC1 makes a good difference - you won't be sorry.

As for the sound, creamy, rich, big, finished, solid, and much easier to get your ears around... Someone in the control room remarked that it sounded like the sound on tape felt much closer to capturing a live performance in energy and continuity. Glad 456 will be available again. The mastering guy is going to be very happy.


Best,
josh
Logged
Joshua Kessler
bushwick  studio
brooklyn, ny
www.bushwickstudio.com

wwittman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7712
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2005, 12:57:49 pm »

Welcome!
I've mixed almost every record I've made for the last 25 years to 456 at 15ips (0 VU = +6 over 250nW/m).
The one thing I'd suggest strongly is to print DIRECTLY to the analogue.. instead of only giving the analogue the already digitally castrated mix.

You can do it by leaving the machine in input and feeding that to the digital.
Or you can do it in two separate passes.
But either way, there's no reason to A-D and D-A the mix before it goes to the analogue.

Then you'll REALLY see what you've been LOSING.... not just what the tape "adds".
Logged
William Wittman
Producer/Engineer
(Cyndi Lauper, Joan Osborne, The Fixx, The Outfield, Hooters...)

vernier

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 809
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2005, 01:40:57 pm »

15ips is king ..(weird how many still don't know).



MCullen
Logged

bushwick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 624
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2005, 03:18:04 pm »

Hi William-

Yes, I only print to tape straight from board mix buss. (For me, Inbox=bad, console=good). And I print to pro-tools through the ATR electronics. I just like what it does. I am a true believer now in this tape/tape speed combo. I am interested in gp9 at 15ips again too. Would like to compare the two.

Gotta run....stems! Sad((

Logged
Joshua Kessler
bushwick  studio
brooklyn, ny
www.bushwickstudio.com

Brian Kehew

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2914
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2005, 11:58:53 pm »

Hey ! How about 1/4" - the way one zillion records we love were mixed. Unless are your tracks are bright digi-stuff, you might not need that much low end subsonic. And DO DO DO try mixing to the machine with less bias than recommended, bias is a "recommended" setting that can easily be bettered if you listen. 30 minutes of experimentation to make every mix sound better!

...And Dolby "A" adds a character you probably will like too - as one person put it "It sounds just like a record should". (NOT Dolby SR)
_________________________________________________________


Rediscovering past methods is interesting - seeing how much GREAT knowledge is left behind in the name of convenience and "progress". Not all old is good, but much of it was...
Logged
Relax and float downstream...

Brian Kehew

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2914
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2005, 12:00:48 am »

I have to say I also prefer the GP9 (if you can get it) over all old tape. I liked the old Scotch 226/250 the most, and GP9 has the same warmth with more depth and dynamics, to me.
Logged
Relax and float downstream...

zmix

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2828
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2005, 05:49:54 am »

That's a blast from the past. I used to LOVE tracking Scotch 226 on a Scully 280 1" 8-track, and mix to 456 on 1/4" on an Ampex 350.

bblackwood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7036
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2005, 06:14:10 am »

I am often reminded that 15 ips sounds very good (1/4" or 1/2") - it just sounds soooo good. IMO, 1/4" 456 @ 15ips just sounds like rock -n-roll..
Logged
Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

vernier

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 809
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2005, 01:22:56 pm »

Yep, 1/4" 456 @ 15ips exclusively here.


MCullen
Logged

compasspnt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16266
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2005, 01:32:51 pm »

I tried your new format suggestion, and discovered that I could get TWICE as much music on the tape!

Thanks.
Logged

Andy Jackson

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2005, 01:47:18 pm »

Me too on the 15 IEC front. The only problem is noise. It's not that it's significantly noisier than 30ips, more that the noise is a high mid 'shush', rather than a top end hiss, and seems more intrusive. An octave lower I guess!
Really depends if noise is an issue, kind of music etc. I've done all analogue albums with both the 24trk and the 1/2" as 15IEC. However the one I'm working on at the moment (analogue 2"!!!) I'm doing at 30 as it's pretty dynamic (jazz in other words).
Logged

Overdrive

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2005, 03:43:47 pm »

I am sure you meant +6dB over 185nW/m.
FYI, +6dB over 250 is actually +9... a level the 456 will have hard time kipping with.
Mixing to analog is great, isn't it? In my machine room are 4 Studer A80 MkII's 1/4"-2".
Logged
Overdrive

Brian Kehew

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2914
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2005, 05:06:01 pm »

I find that 30 ips (twice the sampling rate of 15) is great for some music, with fewer "overs". And 15 (half the sampling rate of 30) is great for some music, especially children's music. I tend to bypass the converters on playback though.
Logged
Relax and float downstream...

vernier

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 809
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2005, 05:49:36 pm »

Best sounding albums in my collection are 1/4 -15ips ..thats what made me change.
Logged

zmix

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2828
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2005, 07:53:16 pm »

compasspnt wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 13:32

I tried your new format suggestion, and discovered that I could get TWICE as much music on the tape!

Thanks.


Oh, you kids!

vernier

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 809
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2005, 08:41:17 pm »

David Crosby (If i could remember my name) ..first album I know-of that was mixed to 1/2", 30ips. Jimmy Page too ..he was one of the first also.


MCullen
Logged

Bob Olhsson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3968
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2005, 11:48:28 pm »

vernier wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 19:41

David Crosby (If i could remember my name) ..first album I know-of that was mixed to 1/2", 30ips....
Are you sure it wasn't 1/4" 30? I don't remember Heiders SF having a 1/2" machine at that time.

dcollins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2815
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2005, 12:27:07 am »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 20:48

vernier wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 19:41

David Crosby (If i could remember my name) ..first album I know-of that was mixed to 1/2", 30ips....
Are you sure it wasn't 1/4" 30? I don't remember Heiders SF having a 1/2" machine at that time.


I think it's 1/4" 15, but:

http://www.barncard.com

is sure to know.

And this is fun, btw

http://www.wallyheider.com/

Where are those DeMedio consoles, anyway?

DC

drumsound

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 638
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2005, 12:49:55 am »

dcollins wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 23:27



And this is fun, btw

http://www.wallyheider.com/

Where are those DeMedio consoles, anyway?

DC


I don't know about the DeMedio from Heider, but one of the Fantasy DeMedio consoles is at Pogo Studio in Champaign IL.
Logged

vernier

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 809
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2005, 03:02:20 am »

Thought he said 1/2 inch but I could be wrong ..does he ever chime-in around here?
Logged

David Kulka

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 578
Re: 1/2" 456 at 15ips .....!!!!!
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2005, 10:06:28 am »

bushwick wrote on Sat, 02 April 2005 23:48

...The 30ips sounded smoother, more relaxed, perhaps not as silky as gp9, but had good body and the music was glued up as expected. Compared to PT everyone agreed that it was nicer to listen to and sounded more "finished"...

15ips?...As for the sound, creamy, rich, big, finished, solid, and much easier to get your ears around... Someone in the control room remarked that it sounded like the sound on tape felt much closer to capturing a live performance in energy and continuity...


I'm afraid I'll make myself very unpopular with Josh and others here, but I have to say something.  These descriptions have little to do with audio, and tell us nothing.  30 ips was not as silky, but 15 is creamy?  What does that mean?  30 has good body and is glued up, but 15 is finished and solid?  What's the difference?

Adjectives like that might impress a date on a wine tour but I don't think they would impress a Bill Putnam, a Wally Heider, or an Armin Steiner, who set some of the standards here.

For heaven's sake, let's take a minute to break this down to down to a rational level.

(Kulka walks to bookshelf, grabs old copy of "Modern Recording Techniques" by Huber & Runstein, blows dust off the top of the volume, and turns to page 178.)

"Tape speed has a bearing on the performance characteristics of the ATR because it is related to the recorded signal's level and wavelength.  At high speeds, the number of magnetic domains that pass over the tape is greater than at slower speeds...which results in less tape noise..."  "At faster speeds, upper frequency bandwidth is extended."

OK, that's a start.  We could add that at higher speeds, low frequency response may be rolled off, and the low frequency bumps are in different places.  And that at either speed, bias an record levels will make a significant difference in the overall sound.  

Others may say "yes, but...", and mention other factors.  There are many, and that kind of debate is healthy.  But let's use real descriptors that have some meaning in audio, and relate to what's going on under the hood.  Sorry, I just think that engineers should think like engineers.
Logged
http://www.studioelectronics.biz

Service & Restoration of UREI dbx Neve Eventide Marshall AMS Tube Gear and more
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up