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Author Topic: TAB V78 vs. V72 Found in REDD Beatle desk  (Read 20479 times)

andyg

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TAB V78 vs. V72 Found in REDD Beatle desk
« on: January 11, 2005, 10:33:48 pm »

Recently got a TAB V78 from Mercenary which I'm loving on male rock vocals... I was just wondering if you could describe the sonic differences (if they exist) between the TAB V78 and the classic V72 units that were used on the early Beatle records???
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Oliver Archut

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Re: TAB V78 vs. V72 Found in REDD Beatle desk
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2005, 12:31:48 am »

Hello Andyg,

best compliment for me is when people like the products I make...
Thank you for buying...
I hope that I can answer your question without razing to many others...

It is quite hard to put the historic REDD consoles in perspective, there was much more to it than a hand full of V72S units; there are only about 300 historic S modules made by Siemens and maybe a handfull of EMI/Carl Lindstroem ones and most of them are in desperate need of rebuild... So it is hard to A-B them...

Seeing the drawing board specs...

The input x-former and plate inductor are identical in technical specs as well as sound, with a few minor changes in material to make them last longer.
As I described it several post on Fletchers forum and others, the setting -60dB and 18dB of make up gain, gives you the historic V72S setting (40dB of gain), so the sound is as close as possible, there are some minor changes in the output stage of the V78 to utilize more modern aspects of mic pres such as 600 Ohm output (no load is required) as well as some PC board layouts that change the over all V72S response +0/-0.5dB to +1/-1.5dB. If you use the sensitivity switch in any other position than -60dB you start changing the sound due to EQing of mis- and matching of input impedance in different directions.... That was the general idea when the V78 was developed....

Seeing the historic angle...

So to put it into detail if you are looking for identical V72S sound, get either a historic V72S module (and not the IRT version) or the in production V72S. The V78M comes as close as no other (not even the IRT speced) pre amp at the -60/18dB setting. But please keep in mind in order to get the classic EMI sound you need a few more unique pieces of equipment, the Studer C37 matches the output of the V76S (modified by EMI) perfectly and is a big step to EMI sound heaven..... As well as some other classic audio gems...

If you need a more detailed description of the classic EMI console concept, please let me know...

Best regards,

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Oliver Archut
www.tab-funkenwerk.com

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andyg

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Re: TAB V78 vs. V72 Found in REDD Beatle desk
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2005, 08:21:39 am »

Thanks for the detailed reply...very informative. If I understood your response correctly, the sensitivity switch also affects the tone of the unit...is that right?
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andyg

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Re: TAB V78 vs. V72 Found in REDD Beatle desk
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2005, 08:36:21 am »

Oliver,

Your reply mentioned that the V78 can closest emulate the Beatle sound with settings of -60 for sensitivity and 18 for the gain. Having checked out the faceplate of the v78 I'm a little confused.  While the sensitivity  control does indeed have a  "-60" setting, VDB control ranges from  "22-60" no "18" setting is available. The question is where exactly should these controls (Sensitivity...the one on the left...and the VDB...the one on the right) be set to capture the sound of the Beatle units????
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maxdimario

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Re: TAB V78 vs. V72 Found in REDD Beatle desk
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2005, 10:26:01 am »

Oliver Archut wrote on Wed, 12 January 2005 06:31


If you need a more detailed description of the classic EMI console concept, please let me know...

Best regards,




I'd love to know...
what was the signal path like?
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Oliver Archut

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Re: TAB V78 vs. V72 Found in REDD Beatle desk
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2005, 11:14:10 am »

Hello Andyg,

sorry for the confusion, you are right, it was suppose to read
-60dB input sensitivity  and 40dB of (V dB means verstaerkung = german for "gain" in dB) gain setting......

The sensitivity switch is labeled in dB sensitivity, but also impedance is a function of amplification, so if you mismatch a 200 Ohm signal with max. -60dB RMS, let say with -10dB input sensitivity and 5k Ohm impedance, you end up with a natural EQing due to the mismatching. Due to the x-former x-former or sometimes capacitor x-former coupling you get a very simple but effective resonance EQ that either adds or reduces the resonance frequencies of your modulation signal. From a technical point of view this is a
"No No", but from a mic pre operator/ engineer or musician point of view, this can be a very artisticle tool.

The historic V76 and the new V72S have the build in sensitivity and make up gain coupled in one switch, so every gain setting has its given (by ohms law) sensitivity and input impedance, the V78 has it divided in two switches....

Hope this is not to technical...

Best regards,


 

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Oliver Archut
www.tab-funkenwerk.com

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retrograde

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Re: TAB V78 vs. V72 Found in REDD Beatle desk
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2005, 11:56:28 am »

Hi Oliver.  More info on the EMI console etc. would be great.

Geoff
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Oliver Archut

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Re: TAB V78 vs. V72 Found in REDD Beatle desk
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2005, 01:19:16 am »

Hello Geoff,

there are quite a lot of different stories and myth out there, I always get contact if I could build one from scratch, etc. But fact is you spend more money than what the end result would be worth. Over the years I rebuild several consoles, one EMI Cologne one... As they come they are more museum pieces..

The EMI/REDD console concept was mainly based on the IRT/Telefunken/Siemens V75 series. Closely examined the REDD37 is a low budged version of the Telefunken/Siemens Stereo consoles. Attached is a standard Telefunken Stereo console of the same time compared to the EMI 4 channel this 12 channel is quite the Lincoln of its time.

I will attach a few images, like routing, etc. so you can see the general idea. EMI in Hayes worked closely with EMI Cologne better know as Carl Lindstroem. They build their consoles on the same Danner chassis than Telefunken/Siemens, but replaced several high price units like routing, buffering and faders, etc. with self made ones, even than the console was close to $200000 in the late 1950s...
Some of their in house made units, like the buffer known as Reed47 came right out the Siemens circuitry tube hand book, they used mostly Malotki and Haufe x-fomers. Others modules like the EQs were quite incredible in design, layout and sound.

The entire console was modular and could be modified and updated/upgraded without any problems, what was done frequently over the years....

The early units were build around Malotki V71 and Siemens V72S units, later upgraded with TAB V76S units that were modified to have a 15kHz cut... Aside the Danner frame and multi connectors, Siemens, Maihak and TAB amplifier, Malotki x-fomer, etc there were also the Painton faders, Eckmiller EQs and lots of Tuchel connectors...

The entire console was set up on the European standard 200 Ohm impedance platform voltage coupling vs. the standard American power coupling, the pan pot was a 400 Ohm.

Each of the input channels was set up, attenuator, passive bass cut into V72S (later V76S), than to an insert point, passive tone control, either EMI made or Eckmiller, Painton fader, optional T plug pad, into a splitter and pan pot set up.
From there the signal went into the four main channel,
V76S, fader and optional plug in/insert or attenuator than via track selector into the EMI made Redd47 buffer/line amp to tape...

Hope that answers some questions....
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Oliver Archut
www.tab-funkenwerk.com

We are so advanced, that we can develop technology that can determine how much damage the earth has taken from the development of that technology.

Oliver Archut

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Re: TAB V78 vs. V72 Found in REDD Beatle desk
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2005, 01:26:52 am »

Attached is the console layout of a standard Telefunken/Siemens console this one made for the Hanover Opera....


 
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Oliver Archut
www.tab-funkenwerk.com

We are so advanced, that we can develop technology that can determine how much damage the earth has taken from the development of that technology.

Oliver Archut

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Re: TAB V78 vs. V72 Found in REDD Beatle desk
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2005, 08:38:38 pm »

If you want some more pics of an EMI Carl Lindstroem console, please check Andrew Roberts V76 loaded one...
You can find it at Purple Audios web-site...

http://www.purpleaudio.com/resource/clg.html

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Oliver Archut
www.tab-funkenwerk.com

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neve1073

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Re: TAB V78 vs. V72 Found in REDD Beatle desk
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2005, 03:28:28 am »

Oliver Archut wrote on Sat, 15 January 2005 01:38

If you want some more pics of an EMI Carl Lindstroem console, please check Andrew Roberts V76 loaded one...
You can find it at Purple Audios web-site...

http://www.purpleaudio.com/resource/clg.html




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RMoore

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Re: TAB V78 vs. V72 Found in REDD Beatle desk
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2005, 09:27:27 pm »

Interesting pics,
Reminds me of how INCREDIBLY high the workmanship is with that stuff,
Just look at the perfection of the wiring etc..
Amazing
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