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[grock5]

Here's an idea: Form a Tape Co-op.
If you want tape, you invest $1k and become a member.
The co-op buys the factory.
The workers will follow. Maybe offer them a piece as well.
Each member could have an array of benefits/options depending on how the co-op is established.

It's worked for other things...

[Ronny]

It's the law of supply and demand, just like anything else.

[bobkatz]

Gary Longest wrote on Sat, 08 January 2005 01:26

Here's an idea: Form a Tape Co-op. If you want tape, you invest $1k and become a member. The co-op buys the factory.

Sounds like a great idea. You need someone with a lot of chutzpah, and alot of money, to start it off. Does the government recognize coops? Doesn't it have to be incorporated as a corporation, anyway?

BK

[grock5]

bobkatz wrote on Mon, 10 January 2005 19:02

Sounds like a great idea. You need someone with a lot of chutzpah, and alot of money, to start it off.

I could see something like this occuring without a large investment by any one individual, but rather a large sum from a large group of interested people. My thinking is that there are enough analog recordists that would be willing to invest $1-$2k to ensure the survivability of their analog machines.

Quote:

Does the government recognize coops? Doesn't it have to be incorporated as a corporation, anyway?

A google search reveals this...
http://www.ncba.coop/abcoop_howto.cfm

I think the bell has rung on analog tape being produced as it has in the past. The co-op strategy allows the buyers/users to be both the need and supply. The problem I see is that any other production alternative just seems to end up with supply being dependent on someone's proprietary interests, aka proprietorship. Whereas, collectively, the interest would be more secure, and more resourceful in it's funding.

[bblackwood]

What do you think you could buy a factory for? $30 million? More? Less?

At $30 million, you'd need 30,000 investors at $1k each. Heck if you only needed $3 million you'd still need 3,000 investors...

[grock5]

bblackwood wrote on Tue, 11 January 2005 07:31

What do you think you could buy a factory for? $30 million? More? Less? At $30 million, you'd need 30,000 investors at $1k each. Heck if you only needed $3 million you'd still need 3,000 investors...

I was thinking $20 million.

Of course, if no one is interested in making this kind of tape, I'd think the price of the equipment required would fall through the floor.

As for finding "investors"...
I swear I've seen at least 3,000 engineers just on the recpit talk about how analog kicks digital's ass.  

It's daunting. I know.
I wasn't saying it was an easy idea...

[Rob Darling]

Can you imagine the asshole-fest that would be 3,000 engineers involved in trying to get something done?  Good lord- how long did it take just to get pin 3 hot?  Now try running a company.  Not pretty.

[TotalSonic]

I'll have to agree with Rob here.  I can't think of a better way to that have all investors lose their cash in the quickest way possible than to have it run by a co-op of audio engineers.  Having in a former life worked as a production manager for a record pressing factory for a number of years including dealing with moving the entire facility and having to get it back up and running - there's a heckuva lot more to making sure things like this get not only going but also turning a profit than a guy running a project studio can possibly imagine.  

I also think ATR is going to face a much steeper climb towards gearing up than a lot of enthusiasts think - although if he can develop a relationship with an already existing Asian plant there might be some hope (although in this case QC could become a nightmare for them)

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[grock5]

robdarling@mail.com wrote on Tue, 11 January 2005 08:52

Can you imagine the asshole-fest that would be 3,000 engineers involved in trying to get something done?  Good lord- how long did it take just to get pin 3 hot?  Now try running a company.  Not pretty.

1) The "pin 3 hot" thing isn't a valid comparison. Persuading various companies to adhere to an engineering standard is a bit different than bringing your own product to market to fill your own need. If anything, the "pin 3 " comparison is a direct arguement for co-ops.

2) most assholes aren't going to invest $1 let alone $1k. They will just sit at the side lines and bitch. That is the nature of assholes.

Hippies do this co-op thing with food all of the time.

All kinds of Folks co-op with electricity (electrical co-op), Clothing and supplies (mec and rei come to mind), basically anywhere a need exists that supply has proven to be unreliable to meet specific demand under the terms of proprietary ownership.

[ted nightshade]

I'm a hippie with who believes in co-ops. Usually a co-op is an endlessly running rap session delineating the very terms... you have to be kind of nuts. But there are some very long-standing ones with all kinds of turnover and yet they keep working. Gives a person hope.

[bblackwood]

Posted earlier:

Quote:

Lifted from the Studer List. I just talked to Steve Smith to get the story on Quantegy. Steve retired from Quantegy Oct 1, but continued as a consultant until December. The primary problem forcing the shutting of Quantegy was cash flow. Video tape sales had declined to the point that there were not sufficient funds to pay oxide, base film, and other vendors. Over fifty parties had considered buying Quantegy in the past five years, but no one was able to put together a financial plan that made any sense. In addition, raw materials were becoming increasingly difficult to obtain. Dupont stopped making 1.5 mil basefilm, flanges had quadrupled in price in the past six years, and oxide manufactures were disinclined to produce audio oxides because of the spiraling decline in demand. Ampex sold 250,000 reels of two inch in 1992. Quantegy sold 2,500 in 2004. Apparently some investors bought two coating lines from Emtec after its demise and are planning to manufacture in the Netherlands. So there is some hope for analog. Quantegy will not rise again. I suggest people buy tape stocks as soon as they can. Sorry to add to the noise, but this is as straight a story as is available on Quantegy. Fred Layn

[dave-G]

dated today, 1-12-05 on the ATRService.com website:
http://www.atrservice.com/news/news_item.php?newsid=40

Quote:

The Future of Analog Tape? Wednesday, January 12, 2005 It has been widely reported on the Internet that Quantegy, Inc. has shut its doors and ceased production during a temporary lay-off. We have received hundreds of calls and emails looking for more information. At this point it is hard to separate fact from rumor, but this is what we know to be true as of today: 1) Quantegy has indeed shut its doors and temporarily laid off most of its staff pending restructuring under Chapter 11. 2) Plans are in place to restructure the Opelika facility and continue to produce the profitable tape lines and hard drives, possibly under a new brand name. 4) Last year, Quantegy reported total sales of about 30M. It is our belief that the Opelika facility will be producing product in the near future, but what kind and how much is still undetermined. The tremendous response to this news in the recording community has only reinforced the fact that analog recording is still very much alive and that there is still an incredible demand for analog tape. ATR Services has been quietly working on a new line of analog tape for the past year. We are currently in the R&D stages of production, and hope to have wide-scale beta testing in place by the summer. Be assured that analog tape will continue to be made no matter what the outcome of the Quantegy restructuring but please be patient, as we will not have any news on formulation or format until we are further along in the testing process. Thank you to all of the clients, colleagues and friends who have offered your support and commitment to analog recording during the last few days. Happy New Year and get back to making music! The ATR team

[compasspnt]

The co-op idea is totally unrealistic.

•The members would be spread across the entire world, not in one location, as in most food or other co-ops.

•The $20-$30 mil required would only be the initial purchase price, not the startup costs nor ongoing operating costs.  Those expenses would be huge...where would that capital come from?  Sales?  Not likely.

•Who would be making the decisions, collecting the $ from the members, etc.?

•Committees don't often get things done efficiently.  This would be one wacko committee!